What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[鞏三孝]

2 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

While light is spontaneous and doesn't require an effort to be seen... on the contrary, qi sensations are cultivated on the basis of a subtle mental (and physical) effort aimed at intensifying them. 

 

In fact, there are different practices in the world that can be used to activate or intensify the phenomenon of internal light. I have encountered several. In other words, the phenomenon of light does not necessarily come spontaneously.

[Nintendao]

The best kind of spontaneous move, is when you automatically go to help someone. Like before you even have a chance to talk yourself out of it, you extend a hand to help an elderly person step up, if you notice them walking with a cane for instance. This way of growing your de, can shine in your heart even more.

[Iskote]

9 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

There are many teachers in Taiwan who will teach you spontaneous gong for no money or very low tuition. Some teachers and groups have a fairly deep knowledge of Taoism. However, the effect of "immortality" achieved through this is still unbelievable. There are many people in the world who practice spontaneous gong. As far as I know, they all eventually grow old and die the normal way.

 

Hello 鞏三孝. I personally am inclined to think those sort of spontaneous qigong / dan dao type systems probably don't relate very closely to traditional 'neidan'. I don't know a whole lot about them however, so I don't know for sure. I don't know if those type of systems are something relatively new which have been created in modern times outside of mainland China, or what the actual story is with them. The teacher I mentioned previously does not describe any info about what the history of what he is teaching actually is, and I have never heard of this 'dan dao' term except only relatively recently, so not sure at all where that is coming from. 

 

Spontaneous qigong is not really for me, at any rate. I have never had any inclination towards spontaneous movements when practicing qigong. My own personal impression is the movements may actually be subconsciously driven based on expectation of how one is supposed to react. I don't know though. Maybe there is more to it than that. Just not my cup of tea, however. 

 

In regards to physical 'immortality', there are old stories of some people in China who supposedly lived considerably longer than normal life spans, but no way to tell if that was very exaggerated or just made up stories or not. Current day neidan teachers seem to usually talk about immortality as being really just longevity, or they may say it is just symbolism for reaching high accomplishment in neidan practice. One famous daoist is claimed to have lived somewhere around 250 years or even more, named Li Qingyun (AKA Li Ching-Yuen or Li Ching-Yun). Many people here have probably already heard of him. 

Li Ching-Yuen - Wikipedia

 

There was a yogi in India who some claimed lived for around 250 years or even much longer by some. There is a video of him on youtube in his later years not long before he passed on. He was all bent over at the waist when he walked, but I think the story was that some old people remembered this yogi being around as an old man when they were young children, and supposedly stories of this yogi being around for hundreds of years. Likely no way to say for sure how old he really was when he died though.  

250 Year Old Devraha Baba of Vrindavan (Very Rare Footage)

(There is a loose translation of the video in the video's description). 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Iskote

[doc benway]

I think that one potentially serious obstacle on the path is developing too fixed a notion of what it is we are after, be that the goal or the method. It is fine if one is working directly with a lineage holder who can accurately point and guide us, not so much if we are trying get that information from reading classics without expert guidance or extrapolating from less authoritative sources. I think one of the most valuable aspects of working with a credible teacher, preferably a lineage holder, is that we can have certainty in the way and the direction we need to go. Otherwise there is the potential for an enormous amount of wasted time and energy. The adage comes to mind - miss by an inch, miss by a mile. My training in both Daoist alchemy and Tibetan methods has involved a great deal of precision. No way I could have possibly extracted sufficiently accurate instruction from reading classics even if I were a native speaker of Chinese and Tibetan, let alone trying to translate into a different language with dictionaries or (cough) Google translate. Even professional translators miss the mark if they’ve not had personal instruction in the methods, the view, and the expected signs and results. Caveat emptor!

[Iskote]

8 hours ago, Nintendao said:

The best kind of spontaneous move, is when you automatically go to help someone. Like before you even have a chance to talk yourself out of it, you extend a hand to help an elderly person step up, if you notice them walking with a cane for instance. This way of growing your de, can shine in your heart even more.

 

I guess it is something of a generational thing, but, for older generations, offering to help out someone who you see could use a helping hand, whether it is a senior or anyone else of any age,  would be an automatic thing that people would do without thinking about it. It's just the way it used to be. When I see the way many younger people behave these days, frankly it is kind of shocking for me to see. I can remember a couple of decades ago living in a very large city and seeing younger people on subways and buses sitting in seats and not ever offering their seats to very elderly people, or a single younger person taking up an entire seat and not allowing anyone else to sit there.  These days I see younger people using all kinds of foul language in public and in general acting very disrespectful of others, and they are seemingly oblivious of the concept of consideration of others.  On a few occasions when I have mentioned this sort of thing to younger people to see what they think about such things, they look at me like they think I am joking or crazy.   The world really has been changing a lot in the last 100 years or so, and in my view, a lot of that change is not so good. I know younger people tend to roll their eyes when they hear elderly people pointing such things out, but those younger people may understand more when they get older them self... Not all change in this world is for the better. Not by a long shot. 

[Iskote]

20 minutes ago, steve said:

I think that one potentially serious obstacle on the path is developing too fixed a notion of what it is we are after, be that the goal or the method. It is fine if one is working directly with a lineage holder who can accurately point and guide us, not so much if we are trying get that information from reading classics without expert guidance or extrapolating from less authoritative sources. I think one of the most valuable aspects of working with a credible teacher, preferably a lineage holder, is that we can have certainty in the way and the direction we need to go. Otherwise there is the potential for an enormous amount of wasted time and energy. The adage comes to mind - miss by an inch, miss by a mile. My training in both Daoist alchemy and Tibetan methods has involved a great deal of precision. No way I could have possibly extracted sufficiently accurate instruction from reading classics even if I were a native speaker of Chinese and Tibetan, let alone trying to translate into a different language with dictionaries or (cough) Google translate. Even professional translators miss the mark if they’ve not had personal instruction in the methods, the view, and the expected signs and results. Caveat emptor!

 

Yes, it is commonly advised that one should find a good accomplished teacher if you want learn things like neigong and neidan, and the same for various types of meditation, beyond just more basic things. I also think that is good advice. 

 

[doc benway]

24 minutes ago, Iskote said:

 

Yes, it is commonly advised that one should find a good accomplished teacher if you want learn things like neigong and neidan, and the same for various types of meditation, beyond just more basic things. I also think that is good advice. 

 

 

When I was engaged in Daoist practices I recall my teacher warning us not to discuss our experiences with other students until we reached a certain point in our training which took a few years. I also recall that he was careful to never describe what we should expect to experience in our practice and he rarely spoke about long term goals, never in any serious detail. He was very firm about us discovering the landmarks along the way for ourselves which he would verify and this would be the basis for further instruction. I suspect this is partly because our experiences of progress in cultivation are very personal and unique to each of us as practitioners. This is largely related to the fact that much of our progress is related to what obstacles there are in us, be they physical, emotional, energetic, etc…  I remember several times asking him to recommend something to read and he would tell me that reading was a complete waste of time if I was interested in Daoist cultivation. He felt that any tim e spent reading and studying was wasted time better spent practicing. 

[Iskote]

54 minutes ago, steve said:

 

When I was engaged in Daoist practices I recall my teacher warning us not to discuss our experiences with other students until we reached a certain point in our training which took a few years. I also recall that he was careful to never describe what we should expect to experience in our practice and he rarely spoke about long term goals, never in any serious detail. He was very firm about us discovering the landmarks along the way for ourselves which he would verify and this would be the basis for further instruction. I suspect this is partly because our experiences of progress in cultivation are very personal and unique to each of us as practitioners. This is largely related to the fact that much of our progress is related to what obstacles there are in us, be they physical, emotional, energetic, etc…  I remember several times asking him to recommend something to read and he would tell me that reading was a complete waste of time if I was interested in Daoist cultivation. He felt that any tim e spent reading and studying was wasted time better spent practicing. 

 

Yes, that is a traditional way these arts were taught. If you tell a student what to expect, that may lead the student to subconsciously try to reproduce those things. Such things engage the mind, but in many such practices often you want to try to do the opposite and disengage the 'ordinary' mind. However, I think most people these days would like to have at least a general overview of where a practice should be taking a person, as otherwise you wouldn't even know what you are working towards. I think most modern teachers are more inclined to at least give such an overview of what the purpose of certain practices are, as it isn't like olden times where one is supposed to just trust their teacher blindly and do whatever they say without even knowing what the purpose might be. Bummer for the students in those days who ended up with a bad teacher.  

[Master Logray]

22 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Care to give an example? As far as I understood, one prepares for...the other is actually doing. Not sure you could do neidan using neigong methods, given the mental work that is required

 

You are right.  It is mostly the case.  To explain further, presume we have a model of reaching Immortalship. 

 

Stages:

Unknown - highest stage

Post foetus - the final stage of total transformation of the human body and psych to another level

Neidan - what are written in all the books

Mind - mind matters

Body - exercises, Qi

Philosophy - how do you live your life

 

It doesn't mean after reaching a certain stage, you can discard the previous.  These are main challenges, while the previous stages are still practised concurrently, though to a smaller extent.  The Neidan stage is where the core subjects locate.  The first 3 stages are mainly preparatory.

 

Take the body stage as example.  It normally comprises Qigong, Neigong and a big lot of supplementary exercises, slapping meridians, massaging and diets.   Needless to say, these skills most probably have their own objectives, even though they can also be used to train in Neidan.

 

Take standing stance as an example, it can be

- as exercise to improve balance for old folks

- as martial arts foundation built up

- as Taichi training to maintain balance under outside forces

- increase Qi and let it sink in Neigung

- to tame the mind and clear blockage for Neidan

- to turn the senses inward and develop and maintain focus for prolonged period

 

The standing stance would be adjusted according to specific purposes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 30/05/2022 at 3:43 PM, Iskote said:

 

 

I recently came across a teacher from Singapore who teaches a type of spontaneous qigong and also what he calls "dan dao", as well. In his system the teacher apparently does a type of qi transmission for a student at different stages. 

 

 

 

What’s the name of this teacher? 
 

Edit: never mind I saw you posted it! 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Pak_Satrio

[awaken]

On 2022/5/31 at 10:54 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I would say that constant attention to qi sensations can be harmful in the long term.

As for internal lights, I would say the opposite.

 

The buddha advice to his students was to understand the impermanence of all things to live free without attachments. 

While light is spontaneous and doesn't require an effort to be seen... on the contrary, qi sensations are cultivated on the basis of a subtle mental (and physical) effort aimed at intensifying them. 

 

你是這裡少數沒有被氣功假大師欺騙的人

你懂得從經典當中去找出真相

 

 

有許多氣功假大師為了要欺騙學生，會告訴學生和經典完全相反的內容

例如不要看經典

或者說光的產生會有害的謊言

 

事實上，所有的經典都提到光

而且光的產生，是一種精煉的過程

並非注意力刻意的關注

相反的所有的經典都沒有提到刻意對氣的關注

所以這些氣功假大師為了不希望自己的謊言被學生拆穿

就會禁止學生去閱讀正確的經典

甚至假造經典，例如鍾呂傳道集就是非常著名的假經典

所謂的呂洞賓的師傅，根本是造假的

 

You are one of the few people here who have not been deceived by the fake masters of Qigong

You know how to find the truth from the classics

 

 

In order to deceive students, there are many fake qigong masters who will tell students the exact opposite of the classics.

For example don't look at the classics

Or the lie that the production of light can be harmful

In fact, all scriptures refer to light

And the production of light is a refining process

not intentional attention

On the contrary all the classics do not mention deliberate attention to chi

So these fake qigong masters don't want their lies to be exposed by students

would prohibit students from reading the correct classics

They even made fake classics, such as the collection of preaching Zhonglu is a very famous fake classics

The so-called master  of Lu Dongbin, Zun is proved to be fake by archaeologists

 

所以當一個氣功大師跟你說不要看經典的時候

你就要小心了

 

這個就是所謂的氣功假大師的最明顯特徵

So when a qigong master tells you not to read the classics

you gotta be careful

This is the most obvious characteristic of the so-called fake masters of Qigong

 

這道理非常淺顯易懂

因為如果你看懂經典了

他如何欺騙你呢？

當然他要你什麼都不懂，只聽他的胡說八道就夠了

 

This is very easy to understand

Because if you understand the classics

How does he deceive you?

Of course he wants you to know nothing, just listen to his nonsense

 

for example, fake Xiuan Guang, fake Huang Ting, fake Qi, fake Shen,  etc.

 

一般來說，佛教徒通常會閱讀大量的經典，所以很少被氣功假大師所欺騙

因為有佛經的基礎，知道什麼才是修煉的重點

但是道家修煉者就沒有這麼幸運了

幾乎百分之九十以上都被氣功假大師騙得非常嚴重

即使有人告訴這些人說你被騙了

這些人還會惱羞成怒

 

 

Generally speaking, Buddhists usually read a lot of scriptures, so they are rarely deceived by fake qigong masters

Because of the foundation of Buddhist scriptures, knowing what is the focus of cultivation

But Taoist cultivators are not so lucky

Almost 90% of them were seriously deceived by fake qigong masters

Even if someone tells these people that you've been scammed

These people will also be embarrassed and turn to be very angry

 

但是在中國，我已經看到有一些少數的道家修煉者開始覺醒

開始發現這些氣功假大師的騙局

並且跟我一樣，開始寫大量文章來戳穿這些氣功假大師的騙局

在騰訊丹道修煉的文章當中，已經可以看到有這樣的作家開始出現了

 

But in China, I have seen a small number of Taoist practitioners start to awaken

Start discovering the scams of these fake qigong masters

And like me, I started to write a lot of articles to expose the deception of these fake qigong masters

In Tencent's articles on Dan Dao cultivation, it can already be seen that such writers have begun to appear.

Edited June 2, 2022 by awaken

[Iskote]

On 5/30/2022 at 6:39 AM, awaken said:

WuZenPian and Chantongqi must be read

 

 

 

These writings have been translated into English. 

Here are references to English translations of these books, as well as a few other interesting books on neidan in English. There may be other English translations of these texts. 

I think there is nothing wrong with reading these types of writings. 

I think it is not advisable to try to practice neidan without the guidance of an accomplished teacher. 

 

Cantong Qi:
The Seal of the Unity of the Three: A Study and Translation of the Cantong Qi, the Source of the Taoist Way of the Golden Elixir
by Fabrizio Pregadio
https://www.amazon.com/Seal-Unity-Three-Translation-Cantong/dp/0984308288/ref=sr_1_1

 

Under an allusive poetical language and thick layers of images and symbols, The Seal of the Unity of the Three (Cantong qi) hides the exposition of the teachings that gave birth to Taoist Internal Alchemy, or Neidan.
Traditionally attributed to Wei Boyang and dated to about 150 CE, The Seal of the Unity of the Three is concerned with three major subjects — Taoism (the way of "non-doing"), Cosmology (the system of the Book of Changes), and Alchemy — and joins them to one another into a unique doctrine. The charm of its verses, the depth of its discourse, and its enigmatic language inspired a large number of commentaries and other works, and attracted the attention not only of Taoist masters and adepts, but also of philosophers, cosmologists, and poets.
In addition to a complete translation, this book contains a detailed introduction to the history and the teachings of The Seal of the Unity of the Three, explanations of each of its sections, and notes on its verses. Also included are several tables and pictures, an index of main subjects, and the complete Chinese text.

Wuzhen Pian:
Awakening to Reality: The "Regulated Verses" of the Wuzhen Pian, a Taoist Classic of Internal Alchemy 
https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Reality-Regulated-Classic-Internal/dp/0984308210/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

 

Awakening to Reality (Wuzhen pian) is one of the most important and best-known Taoist alchemical texts. Written in the eleventh century, it describes in a poetical form, and in a typically cryptic and allusive language, several facets of Neidan, or Internal Alchemy. This book contains a translation of the first part of the text, consisting of sixteen poems, which provide a concise but comprehensive exposition of Neidan. In addition to notes that intend to clarify the meaning of the more obscure points, the book also contains selections from Liu Yiming's commentary, dating from the late 18th century, which is distinguished by the use of a lucid and plain language.

Table of Contents

Preface, vii

Introduction, 1
Translation, 21
Selections from Liu Yiming's Commentary, 75
Textual Notes, 89

Glossary of Chinese Characters, 95
Works Quoted, 101

 

 

Related to the Wuzhen Pian: 
Foundations of Internal Alchemy: The Taoist Practice of Neidan
by Wang Mu (Author), Fabrizio Pregadio 
https://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Internal-Alchemy-Taoist-Practice/dp/0984308253/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

 

Originally written for Chinese readers, this book provides a clear description of the Taoist practice of Internal Alchemy, or Neidan. The author outlines the four stages of the alchemical practice and clarifies several relevant terms and notions, including Essence, Breath, and Spirit; the Cinnabar Fields; the "Fire Times"; and the Embryo. The book is based on the system of the Wuzhen pian (Awakening to Reality), one of the main sources of Internal Alchemy, and contains about two hundred quotations from original Taoist texts.
Table of Contents
Foreword, vii
INTRODUCTION, 1
     The Basis: Essence and Spirit, 3
STAGES OF THE ALCHEMICAL PRACTICE IN AWAKENING TO REALITY, 11
     The Four Stages, 13
     "Laying the Foundations," 15
          Main Points in the Practice of "Laying the Foundations," 20
          The Functions of Essence, Breath, and Spirit, 36
          Terms Related to the "Coagulation of the Three Treasures," 52
          Conclusion of the Stage of "Laying the Foundations," 63
     "Refining Essence to Transmute it into Breath," 65
     "Refining Breath to Transmute it into Spirit," 99
     "Refining Spirit to Return to Emptiness," 109
CONCLUSION, 119
     The "Arts of the Way," 121
Tables, 123
Glossary of Chinese Characters, 133

Liu Yiming: 
Cultivating the Tao: Taoism and Internal Alchemy (Masters) (Volume 2) 
by Liu Yiming (Author), Fabrizio Pregadio  (Translator)
https://www.amazon.com/Cultivating-Tao-Internal-Alchemy-Masters/dp/0985547510/ref=pd_sbs_sccl_2_2/143-1925298-7462724

 

This book contains a complete translation of one of the main works by the eminent Taoist master Liu Yiming (1734-1821). Divided into 26 short chapters and translated here for the first time, Cultivating the Tao is at the same time a comprehensive overview of the basic principles of Taoism and an introduction to Taoist Internal Alchemy, or Neidan, written by one of the greatest representatives of this tradition.
Liu Yiming was an 11th-generation master of the Longmen (Dragon Gate) lineage. Having recovered from severe illness in his youth, he undertook extended traveling that led him to meet his two main masters. In 1780, he visited the Qiyun mountains, in the present-day Gansu province, and settled there. He devoted the second half of his life to teaching and writing, and to charitable activities including restoring shrines and buying burial ground for the poor. His works mainly consist of writings on Neidan and of commentaries on major Neidan scriptures.
Few other masters have illustrated the relation between Taoism and Internal Alchemy as clearly as Liu Yiming does in this book. Grafting Internal Alchemy into the teachings of the Book of the Way and Its Virtue (Daode jing) and of the later Taoist tradition, he shows how the way of the Golden Elixir can lead to the highest state of realization according to the Taoist principles.
Cultivating the Tao is vol. 2 in the "Masters" series of Golden Elixir Press.
Original title: Xiuzhen houbian.
Contents
Introduction
TRANSLATION
   Preface
   1    Precelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit
   2    Postcelestial Essence, Breath, and Spirit
   3    Precelestial Breath of True Unity
   4    True and False Body and Mind
   5    True and False Nature and Existence
   6    Precelestial and Postcelestial Yin and Yang
   7    Internal and External Five Agents
   8    Internal Medicine and External Medicine
   9    Great and Small Reverted Elixir
   10  The Operation of the Auspicious and the Inauspicious
   11  Furnace and Tripod in the Initial and the Final Stages
   12  Internal and External Fire Phases
   13  The Other House and My House
   14  The True Initial Flow
   15  Refining the Nine Tripods
   16  The One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier
   17  The Ebb and Flow of Celestial Net
   18  Giving and Taking Life, Punishment and Virtue
   19  Superior Virtue and Inferior Virtue
   20  Doing and Non-Doing
   21  Zi, Wu, Mao, You
   22  Life and Death, Being and Non-Being
   23  Precelestial and Postcelestial Kan and Li
   24  Laying the Foundations for Refining Oneself
   25  Internal and External Companions
   26  Exerting One’s Mind to Inquire into the Principles
Glossary of Chinese Characters
Works Quoted

Daoist Internal Alchemy history and overview: 
The Way of the Golden Elixir: An Introduction to Taoist Alchemy (Occasional Papers Book 3) 
by Fabrizio Pregadio  (Author) 
https://www.amazon.com/Way-Golden-Elixir-Introduction-Occasional-ebook/dp/B07NTP8151/ref=sr_1_2

 

Taoist alchemy has a history of more than two thousand years. Its two main branches — Waidan (External Alchemy) and Neidan (Internal Alchemy) — share part of their doctrinal foundations but differ in the practices. This ebook outlines the history, lineages, and main doctrines and practices of the Taoist alchemical tradition.
 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Iskote

[Desmonddf]

A plethora of ways to elude the mind while grounding the spirit with experiences and sensations that promote spiritual advancement.

More especificaly, ways embedded in chinese culture and history, traditionaly lived with quite a bit of fanaticism and usually kept or destroyed by bloodshed.

 

So... the same old.

 

 

Ok. Being a little bit less of an asshole here.

We cannot define with precision what neigong/internal alchemy is because it was a free practice, created and practiced by isolated individuals/small groups with only their own viewpoints on philosophical and metaphysical matters as basys.

 

There is a "common ground", yes. The focus on the Dao and some other esoteric elements that accompany the chinese culture ever since before the Han Dynasty, with roots as deep in the times of legends as the gods will have them. But those themselves are still quite loosely connected, since it boils down to a difuse array of mystical experiences, interpretations and creations by thousands of people of many worldviews and backgrounds, and not to a single unified doctrine.

 

If you take a certain branch of neigong, then it will be more precise and more easy to define. But to define the whole thing is... quite complicated. It is just too vast.

[Iskote]

Yes, hard tp put one's finger on traditions that traditionally kept their actual practices secret, and which only passed on the teachings orally to a small select group of students from generation to generation.  

 

I think traditional neidan is not really so suitable anyway for most people who live a 'normal' family life and work a full time job, etc., since neidan requires a real commitment to probably at least a few hours a day of regular daily practice, and the traditional neidan practices I am familiar with require the practitioner to be celebate.  I think for that reason there are probably not that many people out there in the West who are really truly committed to practicing neidan on a daily basis, unless you consider systems like Mantak Chia's system with sexual practices included to be 'traditional neidan'.  I think some might consider that to be more of a 'left side road' type practice, but I really don't know how such practices fit into the big picture. I am also differentiating here from some practices which some people call 'dan dao' these days, as it is not clear to me at all if such 'dan dao' practices may really be closely related to traditional neidan practices at all, and whether such practices are not just something created in more current times but which 'market' them self off of the 'internal alchemy' theme. A traditional system should actually be able to trace a clear lineage to real teachers back though time. Someone just claiming some lineage name and maybe some teacher's name, in no way in itself guarantees a genuine traditional lineage, of course. 

 

At any rate, in my mind anyway, for certain you can't just read through old very cryptic texts like the Cantong Qi and Wuzhen Pian and realistically expect to understand how to practice neidan, or understand clearly how to differentiate different levels, etc. Such texts were intentionally written very symbolically and cryptically.   However, that's just my point of view.  To each their own.   

 

 

[Master Logray]

22 minutes ago, Iskote said:

 

I think traditional neidan is not really so suitable anyway for most people who live a 'normal' family life and work a full time job, etc., since neidan requires a real commitment to probably at least a few hours a day of regular daily practice, and the traditional neidan practices I am familiar with require the practitioner to be celebate.  I think for that reason there are probably not that many people out there in the West who are really truly committed to practicing neidan on a daily basis,

 

 

Neidan, in its higher form, requires living the life of a hermit.   A hermit is very uncommon in the east as well as in the west.   The lower form can be practised in modern society, just like Hatha Yoga does.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Iskote said:

 I am also differentiating here from some practices which some people call 'dan dao' these days, as it is not clear to me at all if such 'dan dao' practices may really be closely related to traditional neidan practices at all, and whether such practices are not just something created in more current times but which 'market' them self off of the 'internal alchemy' theme.

 

 

Dan Dao is actually the proper name for practising Neidan.  It means the Dao of cultivating Neidan, having a broader sense too - it is a Dao, not a method or activity.   Both terms do not generally specify which particular cultivation methods are used.  So they can be opened to everyone to call their own methods belong to Dan Dao or cultivating Neidan.

 

 

 

[MetaDao]

In it’s simplest terms, Neidan is the pursuit of spiritual immortality through alchemy to spread Dao throughout the myriad universes for the good of all

beings.

 

It is the evolution of the soul and spirit in service of the Dao.

 

To understand alchemy, you must understand divine law. The language of divine law is the YiJing. Alchemy and the YiJing go hand-in-hand.
 

A teacher and lineage is required. Hard to find, however they exist. Those with the correct Ming will find them. Those with the willpower and nature necessary will go far along the path. Very few will reach the last stages. 

 

Neidan is the replenishment, refinement, and fusion of the pre-heaven substances in pursuit of the Golden Elixir that is nourished into the Golden Embryo.

 

It works directly with the pre-heaven substances and channels. It is an energetic law that any direct work with the pre-heaven has a spillover affect onto the post-heaven. In other words, authentic Neidan includes the Neigong process. The process of internal change that opens channels and restructures the body according the principle that the physical follows the energetic.
 

Qigong is purely post-heaven work. Some Neidan Lineages include QiGong as side methods for certain problems. A post-heaven method to nourish and clean the kidneys for example. This will help along Ming Gong. Some Neigong traditions(Damo Mitchell’s) generate more post-heaven Jing through marrow washing of the brain to rain down a substance known as Jade Fluid. This replenishes post-heaven Jing though and not pre-heaven. 

 

The rule is: Neidan is purely pre-heaven work. Anything that does not affect the pre-heaven systems is post-heaven work. Post-heaven work only affects post-heaven substances and channels. Pre-heaven kills two birds with one stone. More direct. It is also more dangerous. Requires a teacher that can see your energetic state and advise you on any changes to your practice. Hence, why the methods are never spoken of or recorded outside private circles. The methods are preserved by lineage holders at Earth Immortal level and beyond. Theory is all that can be shared publicly.

 

The stages go like this in the lineage I study. Varies depending on lineage. Core principles remain the same. Replenish, refine, fuse. Form elixir. Nourish elixir. Elixir born. Embryos fuse together for ultimate light body.

 

Replenish Yuan Jing completely. Yuan Jing is our Ming. (The pre-heaven energy of our fate given to us at birth) The replenishment method is known as Ming Gong. This stage opens pre-heaven channels and establishes pre-heaven circuits, taking our physical body to peak vitality in preparation for later stages. It is the foundation. Setting up the workshop/crucible/cauldron for the alchemical work. To succeed in this, a period of celibacy is required. This is because our bucket of Yuan Jing is constantly leaking. We must stop up the holes in our bucket in order for the bucket to fill back up. Otherwise, the ice will must melt and leak out the bottom. Our bucket will never fill. For men, the semen contains a Yang Spark necessary for life. Whenever this spark is lost through ejaculation, a substantial amount of Yuan Jing is used up. Mental desires also leak Yuan Jing constantly. Therefore, periods of celibacy must be maintained in order to transform our physiology. All desires are essentially ended. The process of replenishment and stilling of desires alchemically transforms our physiology. It fills up most the holes in our bucket, causing much less leakage. There are also methods for extracting and circulating the Yang spark so the Yin fluids can be shed. At the end of this stage, you are a human immortal. Peak vitality. Peak health. Practice must be sustained, or Yuan Jing will be lost and age will cause death.
 

Then, comes lighting the cauldron. In this stage, you melt the Yuan Jing, refining it into Yuan Qi. Ice melts into water. This forms the unrealized Dan Tian. The ‘sea of Yuan Qi’ that overflows through all the channels. It is realized with formation of the elixir at a later stage to hold or contain the Dan.

 

Refine the Yuan Qi into Yuan Shen. Converting water into an ethereal mist. Mist condenses into what some traditions call the ‘white moon on the mountain peak.’ 
 

Fuse the Yuan Shen(Xing) with the Yuan Qi(Ming) to form the elixir or alchemical pill. 

 

Refine the Yuan Shen into emptiness. Nourish the Elixir with emptiness to form and give birth to the Golden Embryo. 
 

‘Raise the Golden Embryo.’
 

Neidan is the process of reverting the course and returning to unity. By understanding Divine law, we can understand the creation process through spiritual substances and reverse it. This is spiritual alchemy as I just described. The Xing must be perfected. Virtues expressed. The Ming replenished and refined. Only then can True Yang be extracted to fuse with the extracted True Yin.

 

When the Yuan Qi(original breath, Ming )fuses with the refined Yuan Shen(original consciousness, perfected Xing), the elixir is formed(alchemical pill that represents the fusion of Xing and Ming). At this point the true Dantian is realized.
 

Yin Shen transmutes into Yang Shen. At this stage, you are an Earth Immortal. Internal aging has ceased. All siddhis can be demonstrated. Death can still occur through accidents. Of course, these people will not look younger than they are. That would be obvious. They can control how their face and body ages to maintain a normal appearance. Appear weak and you will be strong. You will not be able to tell an Earth Immortal from a regular person on the street without opening subtle vision to perceive Shen. They look and sound like a normal person. 

 

Next Stage is to nourish the elixir into the Golden Embryo through a long process. The creation of the elixir is the conception of the baby. It must gestate through nourishment, be born out through the central channel, and grow over time. It is much like a child.
 

This Golden Embryo is an indestructible energy body that requires no sustenance to survive. No longer human. Truly immortal and everlasting. It can replicate infinitely, which takes time. It can manifest as any form.  It can segment a part of its being to be born as a human(incarnation) without losing its numerous forms. It can travel to all realms freely. This is where true and full comprehension of the Yi Jing occurs. A spiritual immortal understands the entire universe and the changes within it. Thus, they have a full comprehension of the language of divine law. They can make changes from this higher energetic state for the good of all. 
 

This entity exists in accordance with Dao. It’s purpose is to spread Dao throughout all realms for the good of all. Not just the Earthy realms. Ghost realm, Earthly Realm, and Heavenly Realms. Many consider the process to be done at this point. Forever separate from re-incarnation cycle. Note: incarnation still possible. Does not require death. Will appear as normal human: just with unique soul/fate.
 

Guanyin (Cihang Zenren) is an example of a spiritual immortal that has vowed to never go beyond this point to become a heavenly immortal. Guanyin remains at the spiritual immortal level with part of its being spread across all realms to help all beings understand and attain The Great Dao. It has numerous golden embryo bodies in different realms with human incarnations as well(born with unique Ming).

 

After this is the Heavenly Immortal Level. It is beyond all intellectual comprehension. No point in even discussing it past the fact that these beings govern their own universes with their complete understanding of Divine Law(Great Dao). All golden embryos that have replicated return to one form for 9 years facing the wall and actualization of light body that merges with the heavenly immortal realm.

 

This is the Daoist path of Neidan. Some lineages have different stages, but the differences are minor. The refinement, replenishment, and fusion of the 3 pre-heaven treasures is constant. The methods for doing so can vary as well as the order. However, if any one stage is lacking, the path is incomplete. Say, for example, you lack replenishment. You refine and you attempt fusion. The fusion will never work. Unless, there is some work around that the lineages have figured out. There must be replenishment back to peak levels so that the correct proportions of Xing and Ming are there. This, to me, is what separates the true Neidan from the impure Neidan. Does the Neidan lineage include replenishment, refinement, and fusion? If it is missing any of these, it is incomplete. Most the methods may work, but if you are missing just one ingredient, the recipe fails.

 

It is a path that requires no belief. Everything can be directly experienced and verified through practice. This is the only answer you will ever truly need to what Neidan is. The rest can be figured out through practice under a master.

 

If you read this, know how to seek it out, have the Ming for it, and a good enough xing, you should encounter a lineage necessary to accomplish this path. You don’t require much more explanation than this. Everyone on this forum should seek the path as I described. With this explanation, you should be able to recognize it.

 

Of course, there are other spiritual paths, each with slightly different end-goals. 
 

However, meditation and contemplation alone cannot transmute anyone’s spirit into the spirit of pure Yang. Meditation proper is all about entering the Jhana states. These deep meditative states build a substantial amount of Yin Shen (Inert Spirit) and use up Yuan Qi as fuel to sustain these states. Stillness of mind is valued as a way to preserve as much energy as possible, but if the energy is not replenished and transmuted, there is no possibility for Yang Shen to be actualized.

 

All the awakening experiences required will happen along the path of working with pre-heaven substances. In fact, no seated practice is truly required for these states to occur. Think of it like taking a psychedelic(though actually pure and free of all illusions). The substance exists in your body and will cause an experience to occur that requires no ‘seated meditation’ as many believe. Alchemy is the cause for awakening experiences. Meditation proper are simply Yin Shen states.

 

Upon death, a practitioner that has not transmuted Yin Shen into Yang Shen will either still be a part of the transmigration cycle or will be a ghost immortal.

 

Some spiritual attainments merely result in a long separation from transmigration. I’d say the large majority of public traditions result in this.

 

True spiritual immortality is always alchemical in nature. No matter what you call it, the prerequisite for Spiritual Immortality is Yang Shen. The route to it is alchemical. Yin must transmute to Yang. That is alchemy. There is no route to Yang Shen that is not alchemical in nature.

 

All paths towards true Spiritual Immortality are alchemical if you understand alchemy on a deep enough level.

 

Neidan is not the only alchemical tradition, but it is one that has survived the passage of times to be preserved within lineages with true masters. Hopefully that remains the case going on.

 

Many blessings to all 🙏

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by MetaDao

[mcoolio]

Nice post, thanks for sharing.

 

On 6/28/2022 at 10:42 PM, MetaDao said:

It works directly with the pre-heaven substances and channels. It is an energetic law that any direct work with the pre-heaven has a spillover affect onto the post-heaven. In other words, authentic Neidan includes the Neigong process. The process of internal change that opens channels and restructures the body according the principle that the physical follows the energetic.

 

On 6/28/2022 at 10:42 PM, MetaDao said:

All the awakening experiences required will happen along the path of working with pre-heaven substances. In fact, no seated practice is truly required for these states to occur. Think of it like taking a psychedelic(though actually pure and free of all illusions). The substance exists in your body and will cause an experience to occur that requires no ‘seated meditation’ as many believe. Alchemy is the cause for awakening experiences. Meditation proper are simply Yin Shen states.

 

So what kind of practices are we talking about then, if it's not (necessarily) seated work? More about the things you do in daily life?

 

[Taoist Texts]

On 6/29/2022 at 12:42 AM, MetaDao said:

You don’t require much more explanation than this. Everyone on this forum should seek the path as I described.

so what exactly did you achieve on this path?

[MetaDao]

4 hours ago, mcoolio said:

Nice post, thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

So what kind of practices are we talking about then, if it's not (necessarily) seated work? More about the things you do in daily life?

 

Movements. 3-4 hours a day. It’s a lot simpler than you can imagine. Like playing a sport.

 

Celibate. No sex. Diet clean. 
 

External structure perfected, then focus turns to internal state. Awareness moves to subtler and subtler things as you practice.

Edited November 7, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

so what exactly did you achieve on this path?

A good question my friend hahaha. I am a beginner though I know enough to help guide people in the right direction. 
 

I will tell you with just the few posts I have on here, you should be able to find an authentic lineage. It’s not too hard. That’s my goal. To guide the people who are meant to find the lineages in the right direction. Then, you must follow that path as far as you wish.

Edited November 7, 2022 by MetaDao

[mcoolio]

27 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Movements. 3-4 hours a day. It’s a lot simpler than you can imagine. Like playing a sport.

 

Celibate. No sex. Diet clean. 
 

External structure perfected, then focus turns to internal state. Awareness moves to subtler and subtler things as you practice.

 

Movements with focus turned to internal state. Sounds like good ole neigong?

[Taoist Texts]

21 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I am a beginner though

so you personally  achieved nothing and you are just what...speculating? regurgitating? fantasizing?

23 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I know enough

 those who did not achieve  personally  a certain thing - know nothing about how to achieve that thing. they can fantasize and parrot, delude themselves and mislead the others though.  that they can.

[mcoolio]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

so you personally  achieved nothing and you are just what...speculating? regurgitating? fantasizing?

 those who did not achieve  personally  a certain thing - know nothing about how to achieve that thing. they can fantasize and parrot, delude themselves and mislead the others though.  that they can.

 

Why you always acting like grumpy old grandpa 

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

so you personally  achieved nothing and you are just what...speculating? regurgitating? fantasizing?

I’m curious - what have you achieved with your approach, @Taoist Texts?

 

I seem to remember that isolation was a key part of your practice (along with reading classics of course) - but what attainments have you had?

[Taoist Texts]

11 minutes ago, freeform said:

what attainments have you had?

the embryo. (and no, it is not what you heard it is)