What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[MetaDao]

43 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Teachers shouldn't have online schools then? 

 

https://daode.world/schedule#menu_onlineclasses

 

Isn't that your teacher? 

 

And isnt this his disciple?

 

https://yuxianpai.com/

 

I did...I am making the contrast between 10 euros a week vs 40K for a conversation

 

Nor would I

I didnt engage with them further. I have no interest in learning from someone willing to behave in that manner

 

But you are talking about people like Damo Mitchell and Nathan Brine like they are of that breed, and its both untrue and disrespectful

No and no. Why do you wish to know so badly?

 

And I am making the contrast between 10 euros a week in a teacher’s pocket vs. 10$ a week aimed at solving a problem in the world. The fact that you are unwilling to change your perspective is disheartening 

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

… teacher … AA Khokhlov …

 

Mr Khokhlov   Mr Cock-love 

 

Sometimes con artists on purpose aren’t very subtle. The idea is to weed out all the people with half a brain, and be left only with people that can be easily exploited. 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Cobie

[MetaDao]

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I'm noticing a pattern in AA's students to be honest

 

If a student is a reflection of the teacher,

 

This is very telling

I am noticing the same for Damo’s students. You sound just like him. I am not a student of that teacher

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

If I had an online school raking in 300,000-500,000 grand a year, I would remove the required payment, making it optionally donation based to support solving world issues. The fact that you are fighting so hard against that is highly disappointing and reflective of the current Neidan scene.

 

Something I will remedy over the years. Those with eyes and ears understand what I am saying and I need not argue further. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, MetaDao said:

No and no. Why do you wish to know so badly?

 

And I am making the contrast between 10 euros a week in a teacher’s pocket he 10$ a week aimed at solving a problem in the world 

I dont wish to know, you've made it obvious in your other posts. I mean blatantly obvious

 

If you want to lie about it thats no problem, Its not like the rest of your post isnt filled with those

 

For those of us who have been on the forum and seen the past users with the exact narrative you are positing, its a fairly simple equation

 

 

[MetaDao]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I dont wish to know, you've made it obvious in your other posts. I mean blatantly obvious

 

If you want to lie about it thats no problem, Its not like the rest of your post isnt filled with those

 

For those of us who have been on the forum and seen the past users with the exact narrative you are positing, its a fairly simple equation

 

 

Yes, your character is highly reflective of Damo. I have said nothing but the truth and you try to spin lies lmao. Damo uses his siddhi irresponsibly. I hope that doesn’t transfer to you as well. Those aren’t my teachers and that is the truth.

If you want me to tell more truths I can keep going.

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

8 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Yes, your character is highly reflective of Damo.

I do not think you know Damo's character, and you definitely do not know mine

 

But im not going to speak or argue for him, he stands on his own merits

8 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I have said nothing but the truth and you try to spin lies lmao.

 

You already had a third party refute your claims. You avoidance of my questions made it very clear

 

Ive no investment in it, and certainly no emotional baggage like you to offload. There is no reason for me to lie

 

8 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Those aren’t my teachers and that is the truth.

Id believe it if you had at least mentioned your teacher, or failing that, your school.

 

But we both know what that will lead to

 

But seeing as you wont, and seeing as you are literally regurgitating the same arguments (and practice ideology)  almost verbatim that those from AA's school have come on here with, you are making it pretty hard to deny that you are of his tutelage, or one of his students.

 

8 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Damo uses his siddhi irresponsibly. I hope that doesn’t transfer to you as well. 
If you want me to tell more truths I can keep going.

Sure..Give us all the examples, with evidence please  

[MetaDao]

5 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I do not think you know Damo's character, and you definitely do not know mine

 

But im not going to speak or argue for him, he stands on his own merits

You already had a third party refute your claims. You avoidance of my questions made it very clear

 

Ive no investment in it, and certainly no emotional baggage like you to offload. There is no reason for me to lie

 

Id believe it if you had at least mentioned your teacher, or failing that, your school.

 

But we both know what that will lead to

 

But seeing as you wont, and seeing as you are literally regurgitating the same arguments (and practice ideology)  almost verbatim that those from AA's school have come on here with, you are making it pretty hard to deny that you are of his tutelage, or one of his students.

 

Sure..Give us all the examples, with evidence please  

He misuses his perceptive siddhi on his students. He searched through my memories and regularly attached his awareness to my mind to observe me even after I left his school. It is not hard to see the signs of this as it leaves a karmic imprint. I have asked my teacher to not use such an ability on me without permission and he agreed.

[Shadow_self]

3 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

He misuses his perceptive siddhi on his students. He searched through my memories and regularly attached his awareness to my mind to observe me even after I left his school. It is not hard to see the signs of this as it leaves a karmic imprint. I have asked my teacher to not use such an ability on me without permission and he agreed.

Ahhh, so my emotional baggage remark wasn't far off the mark at all...Interesting

 

Lets see then

 

Quote

He misuses his perceptive siddhi on his students.

And you know of others who make this claim? Or is this just you?

 

Quote

He searched through my memories

Why?

 

Quote

 regularly attached his awareness to my mind to observe me

Again same question. Why?

 

Quote

after I left his school.

 

Are you claiming to be one of his seniors or a teacher?

 

Quote

 It is not hard to see the signs of this as it leaves a karmic imprint.

And you can see this how exactly?

[MetaDao]

7 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Ahhh, so my emotional baggage remark wasn't far off the mark at all...Interesting

 

Lets see then

 

And you know of others who make this claim? Or is this just you?

 

Why?

 

Again same question. Why?

 

Are you claiming to be one of his seniors or a teacher?

 

And you can see this how exactly?

I would expect he has used this ability on many of the students. It is a blatant misuse of power to use that ability on a student without permission or trust. I have no evidence I can show you of course, but I have confirmed it. I would expect it has been used on you even if you are unaware.

 

I left the school for other reasons though. But, yes, if my posts contained a hint of emotional baggage that is why. Being mistreated by a high level teacher is not very fun. 
 

It is irrelevant to my point or my post and I highly expect you to just say I am lying yet again, but that as all I wish to say. It is not bashing if the words are true.
 

 

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I don’t want to answer all your questions because I can tell you won’t be swayed as you have much allegiance to Damo. It is not Damo himself that is the problem. It is the modern cultivation system that has been evolving over the last few years. People seek to become teachers out of both a desire to help others as well as to make a living out of what they love doing. But, I simply argue that your primary source of income should not be teaching. This means you make too much money profiting from people looking for spiritual growth.

Hi Metadao,

 

I think you're making some really good points here.  As a voracious consumer of the aforementioned teachers content over most of the past decade I was hoping I could clear up a couple points

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Hence, they are frauds of Neidan. Neidan methods should only be taught by those with the elixir. Can you lead someone to the elixir - the one and only goal of Neidan without ever reaching it yourself? No. So why are they claiming to teach Neidan. Now, if they are transparent and tell their students freely what stage they have reached and where their teachings actually lead, then they are not frauds.

This seems fair!  As far as I know Damo discloses the specifics of his development to his inner door students. Plebs like me know generalities such as he's not attained the Dan 

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Damo does not name his teachers now does he? 🤨

He does!  On his public biography on the LNG website.  He has teachers that requested privacy as well though and they're not listed.

Quote

 

Massive online schools are a thing of the modern era. They have never been done before. It is a perversion of the arts. If you don’t recognize that, I don’t know what to tell you. A teacher can not personally instruct and help 1000 people or more. That’s like trying to raise 1000 kids. You cannot give them proper care

I think this is fair and valid.

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

 

 

My final question: do you honestly believe you can achieve the elixir by becoming a student of Damo?

Wrote on this at the end.

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Closed door teachings can’t be revealed publicly. We can’t hand everyone the key to immortality now can we?

 

Damo’s courses and videos are all open-door teachings. Hence, they can be shared openly. It’s a teacher’s decision on whether they would like to charge or not. It would be a more selfless action to remove the payment for the academy and make it a donation only system. If people would like to pay, they can donate and these donations will go to charity.

 

You are truly blind if you do not recognize that as the superior thing to do

That's a valid opinion, for sure.  The success of the school has also allowed him to expand his in-person offerings at the new Bali campus, where in depth teachings are much more possible.  Maybe greed was good here?  

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I am saying that his teachings do not lead to the elixir, yet his books and videos on the subject mislead people into believing they do. If he were to openly say he hadn’t attained the elixir and that his school did not lead to that destination, I would not label him as such.

I think this is a mischaracterisation.  I can't think of an instance where Damo claimed to have attained the elixir or spoke about it without disclosing that he hadn't attained it.  If he had, it would seem out of character to me (a biased fan of his).

Quote

He helps a great deal of people but he could help more.

I think I deleted the part about people in dire straits accessing the academy.  As far as I know, he does offer that on a case by case basis, but most of us who work and earn a Western living pay the fee (which is modest imo).

 

I think you're making good points about the nature of online training in general.  I'm personally grateful to have built a small foundation with in-person instruction, but interestingly, some who began in the Academy over COVID but came to the first available workshops were able to develop some basic qualities well enough without personal instruction.

 

About attaining the Dan, and only speaking for myself, my perspective is a bit different from yours in that I'm willing to study under a teacher who hasn't attained the Dan IF they've received instruction and been qualified to teach the methods by someone who has.

 

Does that make sense?  I mean no disrespect, I think we're on the same page about quite a bit here.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Hi Metadao,

 

I think you're making some really good points here.  As a voracious consumer of the aforementioned teachers content over most of the past decade I was hoping I could clear up a couple points

This seems fair!  As far as I know Damo discloses the specifics of his development to his inner door students. Plebs like me know generalities such as he's not attained the Dan 

He does!  On his public biography on the LNG website.  He has teachers that requested privacy as well though and they're not listed.

I think this is fair and valid.

 

 

I think this is a mischaracterisation.  I can't think of an instance where Damo claimed to have attained the elixir or spoke about it without disclosing that he hadn't attained it.  If he had, it would seem out of character to me (a biased fan of his).

I think I deleted the part about people in dire straits accessing the academy.  As far as I know, he does offer that on a case by case basis, but most of us who work and earn a Western living pay the fee (which is modest imo).

 

I think you're making good points about the nature of online training in general.  I'm personally grateful to have built a small foundation with in-person instruction, but interestingly, some who began in the Academy over COVID but came to the first available workshops were able to develop some basic qualities well enough without personal instruction.

 

About attaining the Dan, and only speaking for myself, my perspective is a bit different from yours in that I'm willing to study under a teacher who hasn't attained the Dan IF they've received instruction and been qualified to teach the methods by someone who has.

 

Does that make sense?  I mean no disrespect, I think we're on the same page about quite a bit here.

Yes, you are the first person to make quite a bit of sense and not just endlessly poke holes in a pretty good argument.

[Wilhelm]

14 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Yes, you are the first person to make quite a bit of sense and not just endlessly poke holes in a pretty good argument.

No comment on the argument in relation to the finer points of Nei Dan.  A couple guys senior to me are talking to you about it so I'll go back to listening to them

Edited November 10, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I would expect he has used this ability on many of the students.

How do you know he used it on you, and why do you suggest he may have used it on others?

 

18 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 I have no evidence I can show you of course, but I have confirmed it. I would expect it has been used on you even if you are unaware.

 

How did you confirm it? Thats what Id like to know

 

18 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I left the school for other reasons though.

But you didnt answer whether or not you were a senior, a teacher, a student in person, in the IAA or? 

 

18 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

But, yes, if my posts contained a hint of emotional baggage that is why. Being mistreated by a high level teacher is not very fun. 

Earlier he was a fraud, now hes a high level teacher?

 

You understand you are contradicting yourself a lot here? Its hard to find a coherent narrative

 

18 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

It is irrelevant to my point or my post and I highly expect you to just say I am lying yet again, but that as all I wish to say. It is not bashing if the words are true.

 

I'm not saying anything,

 

I'm asking how you came to this conclusion?

[MetaDao]

17 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

No comment on the argument in relation to the finer points of Nei Dan.  I think all three of you are senior to me in terms of development and I will return to enjoying your discussion 

Thank you for your input. Though, I am unsure if there is such a teacher above Damo that has attained the Dan. My teacher seems to think not.

[MetaDao]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

How do you know he used it on you, and why do you suggest he may have used it on others?

 

 

How did you confirm it? Thats what Id like to know

 

But you didnt answer whether or not you were a senior, a teacher, a student in person, in the IAA or? 

 

Earlier he was a fraud, now hes a high level teacher?

 

You understand you are contradicting yourself a lot here? Its hard to find a coherent narrative

 

 

I'm not saying anything,

 

I'm asking how you came to this conclusion?

He is high level in that he has some minor attainments of Yin Shen and is considered well by the community such as yourself. He has amassed a larger following than many who are at a higher level and have actually attained the elixir. I confirmed it through divination as well as through my teacher.

 

If I had said he wasn’t high level, you would ask me why I assumed he wasn’t. I am sick of talking with you

[Shadow_self]

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

He is high level in that he has some minor attainments of Yin Shen and is considered well by the community such as yourself.

I dont worry about Yin Shen or Yang Shen

 

I know specific results that he achieved related to my aims.

 

That' s enough for me to know he can help me

 

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

He has amassed a larger following than many who are at a higher level and have actually attained the elixir.

Ah you mean like your teacher

 

Would you care to say the proof you were given that your teacher has formed the elixir?

 

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I confirmed it through divination as well as through my teacher.

The former I do not believe, and the latter you are going to have to be more specific

 

Does your teacher have siddhi? Actual verifiable siddhi that you have seen?

 

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

If I had said he wasn’t high level, you would ask me why I assumed he wasn’t.

You said earlier he was a fraud, the called him high level. He cant be both

 

I asked you to pick...you say he is high level. Ok then

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I am sick of talking with you

 

Thats a pity, I thought we were making progress  

[Shadow_self]

Also please answer my question about your relationship with Damo

 

Close student? Senior? Teacher?  IAA member

 

Details are important

[MetaDao]

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Also please answer my question about your relationship with Damo

 

Close student? Senior? Teacher?  IAA member

 

Details are important

Lol. I do not need to prove anything to you. It’s clear you are just phishing for information. If Damo can lead you to where you want to go, study under him.

 

It won’t lead you to the elixir though. It leads down a different path. If he was transparent and honest, you should know where it leads. Or, you’re not as close a student to Damo as you think and you won’t receive in-person instruction in the ways of Neidan. You show your lack of any understanding of Neidan through your words. If Damo taught you anything, you would know that all siddhi are attained at the Di Xian level. It’s easy to check and verify certain things.
 

Buddhist practitioners can be high level but that does not mean they are high level in the daoist system. Damo has trained and built up his Yin Shen over the years but it’s clear that he is not close to Yang Shen. The original post is about Neidan. Neidan is the pursuit of Yang Shen. Damo Mitchell does not have Yang Shen and neither does he have a confirmed connection to any teachers with Yang Shen.

 

If you’re seeking Neidan, you are on the wrong path. He is fraudulent in that he cannot lead others successfully down the path of Neidan. It builds a solid foundation but he is taking his practice in a different direction. He is high level in that he has demonstratable gong and siddhi. A Neidan fraud. A high level Neigong teacher. He is in fact both. So you are wrong again. I can keep proving you wrong but I have much better things to do with my time than argue with someone who has a .1% chance of achieving the elixir. I have explained the path and how to find a correct teacher. It is not my problem that you are studying under the wrong one. If you’re not seeking the elixir, keep training under Damo. The truth will be revealed in time.

 

I expect freeform held back from posting because he might be proved wrong as well. I have a hunch I know who it is  

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Lol. I do not need to prove anything to you.

 

No you dont, you just should back up your claims if you are going to make them

 

Quote

 

It’s clear you are just phishing for information. If Damo can lead you to where you want to go, study under him.

 

You think I need to phish?

 

You think I wasn't picking up on a frequency when I sensed AA and likes off of you? 

 

Does this man look familiar to you?

 

https://www.tiktok.com/@masterdongyang

 

What, you thought Damo was the only one who had abilities ?

 

Do I need to keep going?

 

Quote

If Damo taught you anything, you would know that all siddhi are attained at the Di Xian level. It’s easy to check and verify certain things.

 

So if all siddhi are attained at the Di Xian level, and Damo has siddhi (according to you) then by your own definition, Damo must be at least Di Xian right?

 

Quote

Buddhist practitioners can be high level but that does not mean they are high level in the daoist system. Damo has trained and built up his Yin Shen over the years but it’s clear that he is not close to Yang Shen.

Do you have a Buddhist teacher? I do

 

And it isnt Damo

 

Im quite sure the highest attainment of Buddhist systems is above that of Neidan

Edited November 9, 2022 by Shadow_self

[MetaDao]

28 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

siddhi are attained at the Di Xian level, and Damo has siddhi (according to you) then by your own definition, Damo must be at least Di Xian right?

Still wrong. Siddhi can be obtained through certain practices and are milestones along the path. Just because you have a few does not mean you have them all.

 

Lol, you think my teacher has a tik tok? 🤷‍♂️😂

 

I am quite sure that the Heavenly Immortal level of Daoism is the equivalent level of the rainbow body of Buddhism. Please keep going. At Di Xian level, you have all siddhi. Sure Buddhism has its own alchemy and way of reaching similar endpoints but they are different routes up the mountain. 
 

Even though heavenly immortal and rainbow body are at similar levels, they are still different.

 

Again, the original post was about Neidan. Now, you are discussing Buddhist attainments. Are you finally convinced the path you’re taking leads to a Buddhist destination and not a Daoist one?

 

Let me ask you: where do TaiChi, Bagua, and Xingyi originate from?

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

Thank you for your input. Though, I am unsure if there is such a teacher above Damo that has attained the Dan. My teacher seems to think not.

Speaking in general I can appreciate the stance of 'not believing' someone's attainments until they can be demonstrated, but I also think 'disbelief' just the other side of the same coin.  Just my 2c

Edited November 9, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

Just now, MetaDao said:

Still wrong. Siddhi can be obtained through certain practices and are milestones along the path. Just because you have a few does not mean you have them all.

Hey im quoting your words, I never made any claim

 

You are just contradiciting yourself

 

Just now, MetaDao said:

 

Lol, you think my teacher has a tik tok? 🤷‍♂️😂

Ask your teacher...he knows very well who this guy is  He learns from him after all

 

Or do I need to post your teachers name too?

 

Or how about your practices?

 

Flowing hands...All the way the immortality 

 

Its all you need, right? 

 

Your teachers not an Di Xian

 

Just now, MetaDao said:

 

I am quite sure that the Heavenly Immortal level of Daoism is the equivalent of the rainbow body of Buddhism. Please keep going

The rainbow body is not the highest attainment in Buddhism

 

Not at all

[MetaDao]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

Speaking in general I can appreciate the stance of 'not believing' someone's attainments until they can be demonstrated.  I also think 'disbelief' can be fraught with similar problems though.

Yes. It is wise to not believe in someone’s attainments until they have been demonstrated. You can disbelieve in siddhi all you want but once they are demonstrated, the evidence is there. I am not simply going to somehow demonstrate my teacher’s siddhi through a phone nor do I have any reason to.

 

It makes no difference to me whether Shadow believes me or not.

[MetaDao]

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The rainbow body is not the highest attainment in Buddhism

 

Not at all

Enlighten me.

 

You think Heavenly Immortal is the end of the path? Hahaha. The path is infinite. One is not higher than the other. You are delusional and straight up wrong.

 

Please post my practices. That’d be great. I don’t see why you are so hellbent on proving me wrong. You have your path and I have mine. I have told you that Damo does not teach the way of the elixir. If you want to take the Buddhist path, go ahead. That’d be great! I have simply been saying this entire time that Damo’a school does not lead to Yang Shen. If you think it leads to rainbow body and beyond, go ahead and take that path and achieve it. It matters not to me.

 

The Great Buddha himself. Can you imagine him charging 30$/month for enlightenment? Hahaha ridiculous 

 

Damo may not be a fraud but I have my own evidence that he misuses Siddhi and his teachings certainly don’t lead to Yang Shen directly from him, himself. He is in different sorts of lines and who knows what destination he reaches for? You think it’s be clear in his videos what he is aiming for. He, at the very least, misleads students a bit because I, for sure, thought his teachings would lead to the elixir.  If he was charitable and embodied the buddhas teachings, he would let people access the academy teachings for free who couldn’t afford it. The fact that he has done this a few times is nice! As expected of a spiritual master! The original post was Neidan and I am making it clear that Damo’s teachings do not lead to Yang Shen let alone spiritual immortal or heavenly immortal. I am not an expert of the Buddhist path but I know that one is not higher than the other. They are simply different. The path is infinite either way. This is not interested as a bad mouth of Damo. It is simply a presentation of facts to guide any people seeking Neidan. If you’re seeking the golden embryo, it’s best to look for it in people who have achieved the elixir within authentic lines

 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by MetaDao