What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[MetaDao]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Definitely not this:

 

 

How can an embryo be a body? Thats just gibberish because an embryo cannot survive on its own while the body can. There is a reason why they are called different names: because they are different things. (where is the roll eyes smiley?  ah here it is ) gosh do people even listen to themselves?

 

Yes. You are correct. Embryo goes through birthing process. What I described is Shen Xian body that is a result of the embryo being born. Still, once you have the embryo the process is essentially inevitable. The embryo’s next evolution is the indestructible energy body.

 

When people refer to the embryo, they usually refer to spiritual immortal body though which is interesting. Do you know the term for the body of the spiritual immortals? 
 

Process goes from elixir(Di Xian) to embryo(inevitable that you will become Shen Xian) to birthing of the embryo into what I will call the elixir body as that seems most accurate(Shen Xian) I wonder what term you would use

Edited November 11, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

54 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

have no intention to practice neidan so lets not belabor the issue

Just curious. Do you practice Neidan? Or do you just study the texts?

[Taoist Texts]

28 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

what term you would use

i just say the yang body  

28 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Do you practice Neidan?

certainly. i do.

[MetaDao]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i just say the yang body  

certainly. i do.

What stage are you at?

 

Sorry, I was overly hostile in my earlier conversations but you made good points

 

I am 22 and am still laying foundations. In the process of opening my channels and replenishing yuan Jing. I only came across a legitimate Neidan lineage about a year ago. I practice 2-3 hours per day.

 

If you say you have achieved the embryo, then you must have the associated signs then? Name them. Are you able to deploy the embryo at will?

 

I came on this forum to point people in the right direction for legitimate Neidan as we could use more authentic practitioners in this era. I cannot tell you I have high level attainments because I don’t. Though, I believe my words are still helpful. 
 

Now, I have seen multiple links shared of authentic lineages. The only ones you will ever find online. Anyone who is on this forum without a teacher has no excuse. Find the teacher and path and walk it. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by MetaDao

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

… I am 22 … I came on this forum to point people in the right direction …

 

“people” … hmm … that would include me.  An egg telling a bird how to fly.  
 

Quote

… Anyone who is on this forum without a teacher has no excuse. Find the teacher and path and walk it. 

 This egg is rather hegemonistic.  
 

@MetaDao has it occurred to you other people are other people with other requirements? 
If I learned one thing in my life, it was to not waste time on the sort of teachers you are talking about. 
 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Sorry, I was overly hostile

no no, not at all  On the other hand i do poke fun at the neidaneers but i do it without any ulterior motives

 

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

What stage are you at?

 

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

If you say you have achieved the embryo, then you must have the associated signs then? Name them. Are you able to deploy the embryo at will?

Dear @MetaDao there is something  I have to qualify first. On this forum we have two different realities. In one reality masters tip a cow remotely, change weather with magic, mess with someone's brain with their siddhi, demonstrate their embryo spectacularly. And there is another reality: mine. In mine all of these things are delusions. In my reality the neidan, the embryo, the elixir etc is something the masters in other reality have no clue about.

I am not saying my reality is better than the other one. I am just saying them two are different. We do use the same words but we understand them differently. I do believe your heart is in a good place i also do believe you are stuck in a delusion like all other teachered neidaneers on this forum or worldwide. But thats just my worthless opinion, pls dont mind me and i wish ya'll the best of luck.

 

Now to your great questions:

1 then you must have the associated signs then? Name them.

Sorry if i do that would be unfair to my paying students. Big secret available for small change. i am sure you understand.

2.  Are you able to deploy the embryo at will?

Lets think about this question for a bit. Can a pregnant woman 'deploy' her embryo at will? Its pretty much like that. Sometimes it kicks sometimes not. But i am sure eating for two!

 

 

 

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

no no, not at all  On the other hand i do poke fun at the neidaneers but i do it without any ulterior motives

 

 

Dear @MetaDao there is something  I have to qualify first. On this forum we have two different realities. In one reality masters tip a cow remotely, change weather with magic, mess with someone's brain with their siddhi, demonstrate their embryo spectacularly. And there is another reality: mine. In mine all of these things are delusions. In my reality the neidan, the embryo, the elixir etc is something the masters in other reality have no clue about.

I am not saying my reality is better than the other one. I am just saying them two are different. We do use the same words but we understand them differently. I do believe your heart is in a good place i also do believe you are stuck in a delusion like all other teachered neidaneers on this forum or worldwide. But thats just my worthless opinion, pls dont mind me and i wish ya'll the best of luck.

 

Now to your great questions:

1 then you must have the associated signs then? Name them.

Sorry if i do that would be unfair to my paying students. Big secret available for small change. i am sure you understand.

2.  Are you able to deploy the embryo at will?

Lets think about this question for a bit. Can a pregnant woman 'deploy' her embryo at will? Its pretty much like that. Sometimes it kicks sometimes not. But i am sure eating for two!

 

 

 

Ha I see. I hate to disagree, but it is you who are deluded.

 

”Big secret for small change.” I see we do live in two separate realities.

 

I live in the reality where successful practitioners along the path create harmony between heaven and earth without regard for price. Unsuccessful practitioners fall into the traps along the route. Traps of power. Traps of pleasure. Traps of greed. Then, there are a third group. The worst kind. Those who have achieved something high level and still stray from the path to never achieve something greater than they already have. There are cases of Di Xian falling into these traps. These are the worst kinds of practitioners and that path leads to a place you do not wish to go.

 

You, yourself, from what I can tell, live in a reality of delusion where you have students who pay you a price for a big secret. When they pay this price, they realize the secret is not what they think. The only one who benefits from this exchange is yourself, the one with the secret. Then, you tell your students every other way of doing things is wrong and you have the only true path.

 

 

Explain to me why I need to pay a price for a secret. Can you? You cannot. That which is freely given without expectation for anything in return is the only true spiritual teaching. Everything else is deluded. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

39 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

“people” … hmm … that would include me.  An egg telling a bird how to fly.  
 

 This egg is rather hegemonistic.  
 

@MetaDao has it occurred to you other people are other people with other requirements? 
If I learned one thing in my life, it was to not waste time on the sort of teachers you are talking about. 
 

 

So what are you seeking? Why are you here on this forum?

 

The people with the destiny for the arts and the heart to see them through will find the correct teachers. The resources are literally staring you in the face. If you don’t want to take the path, that is your choice.

 

An egg telling a bird how to fly? Or a bird learning to fly trying to help the penguins realize they can fly?

 

People will have their different requirements and different paths but if the path is revealed to them and they choose not to take it, it is their choice. The least we can do, those who have found the path, is reveal the correct one to others.

 

In this way, we spread the light to more and more seekers.

Edited November 11, 2022 by MetaDao

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

 it is you who are deluded

Cool. All good 😁

[idquest]

Less theory, more practice. The more people talk and use professional jargon, daoist or not, the more dualistic they become. Talk less, practice more.

[Cobie]

Those who know don't talk about it;

知 之 者 弗 言 zhī zhī zhě  fú yán 

 

those who talk don't know it.

言 之 者 弗 知 yán zhī zhě  fú zhī

 

(Start DDJ Ch 56, Guodian, Henricks)

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Cobie

[MetaDao]

Quite right. Though like all Dao De Jing quotes, it is metaphorical and refers to a great many things.

 

It is necessary to talk about base level theory and discuss the nature of what the path is so people can recognize it. 
 

If you do not have a practice, you cannot talk about even base level theory.

 

If you have not experienced any of the hallmarks of the path, you should not talk of them, which is why I don’t.

 

I have made my point and will no longer be logging into this forum.

 

All the best to each of you. If you have the path in front of you, continue to walk it.

 

If you haven’t found the teacher, continue to seek. Talk to those who can show you the path. Many blessings 🙏

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

then you must have the associated signs then? Name them.

Sorry if i do that would be unfair to my paying students. Big secret available for small change. i am sure you understand.

Hang on a sec. Are you joking TT? Or do you really have students?

 

Can never tell with you 

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… Big secret …

Righto, no info; then I will have to fantasise.

 

Conceivably in primordial times, people thought the stomach of a woman of itself just swells up and a birth follows. Taboos around birthing, top secret. But someone made a big discovery, the role of men in this and how long gestation is. He wrote it all down: 

 

The Complete Reality

First there is the elixer (semen). After that the embryo starts in the dantien (stomach). After 10 months the embryo is ready. Then it leaves the body and can travel the world.

 

 

 

 

As these things go, other people took his writing to be metaphorical and read a great many things into it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Cobie

[Bindi]

19 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Righto, no info; then I will have to fantasise.

 

Conceivably in primordial times, people thought the stomach of a woman of itself just swells up and a birth follows. Then someone made a big discovery, the role of men in this and how long gestation is. He wrote it all down: 

 

The Complete Reality

First there is the elixer (semen). After that the embryo starts in the dantien (stomach). 

After 10 months the embryo is ready. Then it leaves the body and can travel the world.

 

 

 

As these things go, other people took his writing to be metaphorical and read a great many things into it.

 

The character for ‘he’ and ‘she’ being the same, very helpful for the misconceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IME there is within us a subtle female energy/spirit/channel and a subtle male energy/spirit/channel, and when these two energies are cultivated they do actually produce a subtle energy ‘child’, associated with the central channel. 

[Cobie]

13 minutes ago, Bindi said:

IME there is within us a subtle female energy/spirit/channel and a subtle male energy/spirit/channel, and when these two energies are cultivated they do actually produce a subtle energy ‘child’, associated with the central channel. 

Yes, I remember you said similar before in this thread:

 

I have found the ‘inner child’ a very helpful concept in healing.  Also integrating male and female aspects of self, I have found very helpful. I mainly used the chakra system. These things are all mental constructs that become superfluous when healing has been completed.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Cobie

[Bindi]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Yes, I remember you said similar before in this thread:

 

I have found the ‘inner child’ a very helpful concept in healing.  Also integrating male and female aspects of self, I have found very helpful. I mainly used the chakra system. These things are all mental constructs that become superfluous when healing has been completed.

 

“When healing has been completed” is to me when everything that needs to be done on the subtle level is done, a fully cultivated subtle energy system, that’s sooo far along. Who knows if mental constructs are superfluous or not at that stage? 

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Righto, no info; then I will have to fantasise.

 

Conceivably in primordial times, people thought the stomach of a woman of itself just swells up and a birth follows. Taboos around birthing, top secret. But someone made a big discovery, the role of men in this and how long gestation is. He wrote it all down: 

 

The Complete Reality

First there is the elixer (semen). After that the embryo starts in the dantien (stomach). After 10 months the embryo is ready. Then it leaves the body and can travel the world.

 

 

I've not done Neidan but some other brand of Chinese practice, I found that the first ' things' that are mentioned, such as the dantian and the the circulation through Ren and Du meridian are very real and tangible once developed. I only found out later as the guy that taught me disapproved of reading this stuff ( at least for beginners),  just practice.

Them old Chinese wizards knew much more from the human body then the average modern man ( and woman ) can grasp.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by blue eyed snake

[Cobie]

6 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

… Them old Chinese wizards knew much more from the human body …

They knew next to nothing about the body, e.g. for about a thousand years, they were poisoning it with mercury and lead. 
 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

“When healing has been completed” is to me when everything that needs to be done on the subtle level is done

 

Yes

 

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

… Who knows if mental constructs are superfluous or not at that stage? 

I know as I have experienced it. 

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

Are you joking TT? Or do you really have students?

I really have but just 3 or 4 of them.

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

I really have but just 3 or 4 of them.

So you were ridiculing people for thinking of buying Nathan Brine’s course (claiming that since he doesn’t explain the results of his training (which he does,  in his book), then they’re fools for handing money over)…

 

Yet here you are dangling carrots of ‘insider knowledge’ that people have to pay for to even evaluate your approach?

 

Thats a pretty troll move TT! Impressive! 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Yet here you are dangling carrots of ‘insider knowledge’ that people have to pay for to even evaluate your approach?

If you imply that i sell a pig in a poke  (since we are talking  in farming metaphors) then you are very very  wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke 

 

When a serious applicant contacts me in a PM i explain to him very very clearly what he gets for his money. 19 out of 20  decide not to proceed after that. On this forum i had 2 people with one month deal, and 2 people who stuck with me for  several years. I never advertise. If you want to see for yourself how it works you are welcome to PM.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

he doesn’t explain the results of his training (which he does,  in his book)

really? he does?;) what are they exactly?

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

troll 

Bless you. this makes me laugh because i am that laughing buddha. you see name calling betrays frustration. For example somebody might be frustrated when his teacher tells him that he needs several years of excruciating hard work for something that my book says takes 100 relaxed days tops.

 

 

[freeform]

I have absolutely no problem with you advertising or not… explaining your method or not… describing what one gets for their money or not…

 

and I’m glad you have students

 

I wasn’t calling you a troll either - I was saying it’s a troll move to share vociferous views on the commerce of teaching while being part of it as much as anyone else… (without getting into the nitty gritty of comparative marketing tactics (stuff I don’t really care about)).

 

I have absolutely no problem with any of it… just find it funny  

 

You're not manipulative, you don’t talk yourself up too much, you don’t get into many petty arguments, you don’t seem to promote methods that could endanger anyone, you don’t teacher bash specifically - (all of that seems to be the general marketing tactics of people selling immortality these days) - and I respect all that about you.
 

So please don’t mistake my words as an attack - I appreciate your perspective and insights here!

 

But I’ll also readily tease and poke holes - just as you do yourself  

 

You appear to be witty and mature enough to take it and respond - without taking offence, I think.

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

I have absolutely no problem with you advertising or not… explaining your method or not… describing what one gets for their money or not…

 

and I’m glad you have students

 

I wasn’t calling you a troll either - I was saying it’s a troll move to share vociferous views on the commerce of teaching while being part of it as much as anyone else… (without getting into the nitty gritty of comparative marketing tactics (stuff I don’t really care about)).

 

I have absolutely no problem with any of it… just find it funny  

 

You're not manipulative, you don’t talk yourself up too much, you don’t get into many petty arguments, you don’t seem to promote methods that could endanger anyone, you don’t teacher bash specifically - (all of that seems to be the general marketing tactics of people selling immortality these days) - and I respect all that about you.
 

So please don’t mistake my words as an attack - I appreciate your perspective and insights here!

 

But I’ll also readily tease and poke holes - just as you do yourself  

 

You appear to be witty and mature enough to take it and respond - without taking offence, I think.

All problems that would be eliminated if money weren’t an issue. There are no marketing tactics. It’s simple. Either a method works or it doesn’t. It leads to these results or it doesn’t.

 

Brine talks about all sorts of lesser elixirs, this and that yada yada, making you think it’s a path towards the golden elixir. Then, you buy his courses, practice for a few years, meet him. Do you get closer to obtaining the elixir? Sure, maybe. But, like I’ve been saying, a teacher who hasn’t achieved the elixir cannot lead you there. It’s not teacher bashing marketing tactics. It’s a condemnation of the entire internal arts scene for what it’s become. A business of profiting off selling immortality.

 

Not many are excluded from this. Including my own teacher. As you work with a teacher, money becomes an afterthought. Like paying a coach to teach you a sport. Yet, the problems it causes are the exact ones you mention here. Dangling carrot, marketing tactics, bashing teachers, advertising, ect. These problems naturally arise from the systemic issue that is selling immortality. A problem that will be eliminated when I completely destroy the business model by offering teachings for free. It’s competitive advantage. Why pay for something when you can get it for free.

 

That is marketing right there. TT takes advantage of the conversation to quickly explain that he’s at golden embryo level. Dangles a carrot of knowledge in front of the forum to market himself as a teacher. Subtle hint drops. Now maybe he gets a couple more paying students. Ridiculous. If you are at the golden embryo level and you are charging money, you are part of the problem and I don’t wish to be your student. That should be the view.

 

People have normalized paying for immortality and they are suckers for the con. But someone must pay to learn and release it for free when they master it. As a teacher, you can easily say, after 6 months of training with me, payment becomes optional. You can donate to me or choose not to pay. So many options. 
 

I do not name call. I speak facts. I will say the same to my own teacher later on. You are deluded if you charge money for Neidan and believe it is better than not charging. It is a causation chain of problems that is unnecessary. If you have reached a high attainment and cannot ascertain your motivations for charging students, you will not reach a higher attainment. You think to yourself: now, wait, my students are already paying me and it doesn’t seem like they will stop, so why would I drop the payment now? Greed. 
 

It’s so simple. Tell me I am wrong please. I’d like to hear a counter argument. I don’t think it’s possible to present one 

 

I do not name drop my teacher. He does not wish to be named. He seeks no students who cannot find him himself. I do not pay him because I have to, I pay him because I choose to. If I talked with him about it, I am sure he would work with me. That’s the teacher I find inspiring. He has enough. He does not need money from students. It is simply the student’s way of expressing gratitude. To give something in return back to the teacher when something has been freely given. That’s the way it should be done. You are all deluding yourselves if you think otherwise 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao