What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, freeform said:

vociferous views on the commerce of teaching while being part of it as much as anyone else

haha;), no thats wrong.  No reasonable person would  claim that since the money changes hands then both a con man and a bread baker are both equally 'in commerce'. I teach the real deal - all the seminar-sellers teach second hand gibberish.

 

To answer the question of this topic and to explain the diff between me and them: all of what is called neidan/internal alchemy has come to the West and to the modern china from a historical linage known as the Wu-Lu.

https://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/wu-liu-daoism-in-modern-china.html 

Now, the seminar sellers disguise it under some other real or made up names for marketing purposes but  all of them sell empty verbiage and misunderstood 'methods' borrowed from the WL. It is quite obvious. None of them ever studied a genuine WL legacy text which total to more than 1000 pages. Again, quite obvious.

 

I am the single person in the entire green world who translated the entire WL legacy from cover to cover. Thats what i sell - the first hand knowledge. Thats the diff. Thats what i have and they dont. We are not the same.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But I’ll also readily tease and poke holes - just as you do yourself  

yeah well it was all in good clean  fun and terrifically amusing but recently i feel kinda bad about it. There was this otherwise fairly nice fella who openly admitted to having a psychiatric disorder. Now he is a neidan teacher with a substantial following. Seriously, he is. Or there is this neidan student who openly admits that a famous nei-something teacher telepathically messes with his head. Or there is another neidan student who boasts that his teachers make miracles. Of course it is ethically wrong to joke and poke fun at such people so I immediately stop when i learn their condition.  But it still nags at me what if all neidaneers are like that and i am guilty of poking fun at people with issues? I hope not. (sigh)

[Master Logray]

23 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

These problems naturally arise from the systemic issue that is selling immortality. A problem that will be eliminated when I completely destroy the business model by offering teachings for free. It’s competitive advantage. Why pay for something when you can get it for free.

 

That is marketing right there. TT takes advantage of the conversation to quickly explain that he’s at golden embryo level.

 

 

 

If you don't want selling immortality, then it is better to look for another religion/alchemy/spirituality.  Taoism is not for you.  Do you know the 4 essentials in Neidan cultivation - 法財侶地 (the method, money, companion and place).  Money is the 2nd important requirement after the methodology.

 

There are already places offering free teaching over the ages and still exists now.

 

Did @Taoist Texts actually say he is at golden embryo level?    He always talks about his knowledge on the classics, but not his Kung Fu level.

 

If you want to establish or destroy something, you have to know what this something is.   I suggest you read Damo's book - Neigong.  It is certainly one of the best in terms of background knowledge and how the ecosystem is like.  Of course not everything is correct.  But it is an excellent starting point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Master Logray]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yeah well it was all in good clean  fun and terrifically amusing but recently i feel kinda bad about it.

 

You should.  Some people don't receive it well.  I have such experience.  BTW @Shadow_self shared 2 links about wuxianpai and wuliupai.  I searched the forum.  Back in 2017, you were having a discussion with @A.A.Khokhlov over wuliupai.  Are you related to their wuliupai or otherwise?

 

[MetaDao]

35 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Do you know the 4 essentials in Neidan cultivation - 法財侶地 (the method, money, companion and place).  Money is the 2nd important requirement after the methodology.

Laughable. You take a great concept and completely butcher it with your own misunderstandings.

 

Money is needed for personal cultivation, this is true. But it is only needed so far as to support your needs so you can focus on practice. Not to line teachers pockets. How much money do you need if you’re living in a Daoist hermit village? Go back in time with me. Do you think we went to the Di Xian of the village with all our family’s possessions and begged to be taught? No, you’re fooling yourself. The teachings were freely given and people rewarded the teachers with expressions of gratitude.

 

Yes, I have read his books about 8 times each. I have almost completely memorized them. Any Di Xian can also pick up those books and point the errors in understanding out to me.

 

From Taoist Texts responses, I can tell he is a fraud. Never give your money to him. It’s obvious he understands nothing of Neidan. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

haha;), no thats wrong.  No reasonable person would  claim that since the money changes hands then both a con man and a bread baker are both equally 'in commerce'. I teach the real deal - all the seminar-sellers teach second hand gibberish.

 

To answer the question of this topic and to explain the diff between me and them: all of what is called neidan/internal alchemy has come to the West and to the modern china from a historical linage known as the Wu-Lu.

https://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/wu-liu-daoism-in-modern-china.html 

Now, the seminar sellers disguise it under some other real or made up names for marketing purposes but  all of them sell empty verbiage and misunderstood 'methods' borrowed from the WL. It is quite obvious. None of them ever studied a genuine WL legacy text which total to more than 1000 pages. Again, quite obvious.

 

I am the single person in the entire green world who translated the entire WL legacy from cover to cover. Thats what i sell - the first hand knowledge. Thats the diff. Thats what i have and they dont. We are not the same.

“Instead their developed technique advocates correct Daoist self-cultivation training which unfolds in a systematic manner, under the guidance of a qualified master whose mind (and body) is pure and free from any and all ulterior motives.”

 

Taken directly from the text itself. Are you free from any and all ulterior motives? Why do you charge students? What’s your motive?

 

I am sorry. I was going to stop posting, but I just can’t let this nonsense stand

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Are you related to their wuliupai

hehe, no not related

[Shadow_self]

52 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

If you don't want selling immortality, then it is better to look for another religion/alchemy/spirituality.  Taoism is not for you.  Do you know the 4 essentials in Neidan cultivation - 法財侶地 (the method, money, companion and place).  Money is the 2nd important requirement after the methodology.

 

There are already places offering free teaching over the ages and still exists now.

 

Did @Taoist Texts actually say he is at golden embryo level?    He always talks about his knowledge on the classics, but not his Kung Fu level.

 

If you want to establish or destroy something, you have to know what this something is.   I suggest you read Damo's book - Neigong.  It is certainly one of the best in terms of background knowledge and how the ecosystem is like.  Of course not everything is correct.  But it is an excellent starting point.

 

 

You are wasting your time trying to talk with this one my friend  

 

Better to water the seeds that will flower, than to waste it on mulch

 

He needs a few more years, and a few more lessons

Edited November 12, 2022 by Shadow_self

[MetaDao]

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

You are wasting your time trying to talk with this one my friend  

 

Better to water the seeds that will flower, than to waste it on mulch

 

He needs a few more years, and a few more lessons

Indeed. They are wasting their time because the have no satisfactory answers for the holes I poke in their obviously flawed arguments. Rather than answer, they simply evade because they are scared they don’t have a counter argument.

 

I see you are still combative and hypocritical. The lines you say about me are meant for yourself

[blue eyed snake]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

They knew next to nothing about the body, e.g. for about a thousand years, they were poisoning it with mercury and lead. 
 

 

 

strawman

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Indeed. They are wasting their time because the have no satisfactory answers for the holes I poke in their obviously flawed arguments. Rather than answer, they simply evade because they are scared they don’t have a counter argument.

 

I see you are still combative and hypocritical. The lines you say about me are meant for yourself

 

I'm going to try this one last time, out of a hope that you just might see sense

 

Young man, You are 22, as you stated. Honestly, you are still an adolescent by todays metrics

 

I've seen everything from your arguments to your educational background (thanks to your own error)

 

You have so much to learn, and on your current trajectory, that's going to take a while.

 

I spent a large degree of time working in a university as a lecturer and researcher.

 

Your type is not uncommon.

 

I've seen more of your template than you'd care to know. This is a trap so many people fall into after a few years intellectualizing

 

But continue like this, and it will take you in one direction and that wont be anywhere useful (despite you thinking it will)

 

The good news is that's not fixed (unless you want it to be)

 

You've burned a more important bridge in Damo Mitchell than you realise, but that's your own mistake to own, and there's no point in going over it. It is done. Your anger, frustration and wounds need to heal, no constantly be reopened by discussions of the kind you are actively promoting.

 

There is a reason I picked up emotional instability off you. You are radiating it.

 

You may not understand this, but all those things you keep saying.

 

If you are that invested in them, you are dragging yourself further and further away from spirituality than you realise. No standing practices, Neidan or teacher will  be able to help you if you are clinging that strongly to your sense of self.

 

You can just point blank forget it, it wont work

 

None of it will take that away, and you'll forever be circling a roundabout

 

People here could actually help you...but if you continue as you are, people are just going to want to ignore you.

 

Don't be that person. Like I said before, find peace. You are in need of it

[Cobie]

45 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

… I spent a large degree of time working in a university as a lecturer and researcher. …

 That explains a lot, you just didn’t have the time to learn about neidan!   
 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, MetaDao said:

… I was going to stop posting, but …

I am glad you’re back. 
 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

strawman

The comment I made in the blocking user section applies here

 

A one way conversation gets old pretty fast

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

He needs a few more years, and a few more lessons

 

If a person's cultivation goes nowhere, it is alright, only time and money wasted.  If this person has serious issues, yet he manages to get some results, when these hidden issues arise unexpectedly, that is the most dangerous in the cultivation process.  You don't want to remember injustice done to you when your Chi is trying to pass through an important point.

[MetaDao]

When they cannot explain it to themselves, they find a scapegoat for justification. 

[Shadow_self]

40 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

If a person's cultivation goes nowhere, it is alright, only time and money wasted. 

This would be the case. Such methods do not lead to said result

 

Quote

If this person has serious issues, yet he manages to get some results, when these hidden issues arise unexpectedly, that is the most dangerous in the cultivation process.  You don't want to remember injustice done to you when your Chi is trying to pass through an important point.

 

Indeed, there are always dangers with these things...better to sort out ones mind first, before trying to do anything

[MetaDao]

They just keep trying. It’s incredible. Do you ever read your own posts and apply them to yourself? I think you’d learn more from that than listening to your teacher.

 

My teacher can examine every aspect of my being and instruct me accordingly. You have no understanding of Neidan and you are trying to instruct a person who has traveled to hell and back. Failing as well. Every post you make shows your lack of understanding 

 

Do you know why @freeform hasn’t responded? Because he knows the answer. He knew it as soon as I said it because he has discernment. He is far along the path and I can respect him. I talk to such people in the way I do because they learn from these exchanges as well. He knows exactly who I am

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

My teacher can examine every aspect of my being and instruct me accordingly.

Its not hard to examine you

 

I've already laid out a fairly accurate representation of your behavior since you arrived

 

It is not too late to change that

 

Quote

You are trying to instruct a person who has traveled to hell and back.

You're 22 my friend.

 

You should in theory have more ahead of you than behind you

 

But if you face life, as emotional as you are here, expect frequent visits to that self created hell

 

Hence my prompt for you to find peace 

 

This will do you far more favours than any neidan

 

Quote

Do you know why @freeform hasn’t responded?

I think he made it abundantly clear earlier. This conversation isn't worth his time, or something that interests him

 

Quote

He knows exactly who I am

Im not sure he does.

 

But I do (as do others) you literally left your name out there for everyone to read

 

Most are choosing not to engage because they have already been exposed to your ways either here or before you arrived

 

Allow me to reveal the nature of your ways, in one nutshell. You do not like to be told you are wrong,

 

This is why you are where you are, behaving as you are.

 

Understandable, as that is basically the defining feature of your generation unfortunately

 

I had a bit of hope there might be a iota of a chance to reach you and undo some of the damage Kostya and his crew have done.

 

Oh well, if you wont listen to someone who knows better than you, wasted time, wasted money, wasted effort and more hurt can be your teacher instead

 

Seems your beyond reason and sense right now

 

In which case I reiterate, find peace please

Edited November 12, 2022 by Shadow_self

[MetaDao]

I’d love to be told I am wrong. I am waiting for @freeform to respond. Just be quiet until then.

 

If it’s a waste of his time. It’s a cop out.

 

Also, I made it abundantly clear, if you could prove my argument wrong, I’d be happy to accept it. You haven’t. You keep attacking my personal character and that’s about it. A losing strategy. No one listens to anybody except authority figures, so you can hear your confirmation straight from the horse’s mouth.

 

If it’s unimportant and a waste of time, he should be able to explain exactly why. If charging for Neidan is all well and good, he can explain exactly why.
 

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

35 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I’d love to be told I am wrong.

You are wrong.

 

Happy?

 

Quote

I am waiting for @freeform to respond. Just be quiet until then.

He's not part of this conversation, and hes not interested in it. He already told you this

 

Contrary to the fact you might think you are worthy of everyone's attention,  you are not

 

Its bad enough you have no peace in your head or heart. Why disturb that of others who have already told you they aren't interested?

 

Are you that self entitled?

 

Quote

Also, I made it abundantly clear, if you could prove my argument wrong, I’d be happy to accept it. You haven’t. 

Unfortunately as a guy who apparently has an educational background in logic, you seem to be sorely lacking in it

 

Anyone making claims or an argument, the burden of proof always lays with them to substantiate the claims, of which you cannot do, will not do, nor have the capability to do

 

You are the one coming in here making claims, statements, accusations about teachers, claiming superior practices, demanding people conform to your keyhole view of the world

 

I've provided more information about the things you are talking about than you...and you are the one making the bloody arguments

 

So please stop making  false arguments and talking about things you've not substantiated.

 

Its becoming a joke at this point

 

Quote

If it’s unimportant and a waste of time, he should be able to explain exactly why.

 

Nobody owes you an explanation,  their time, attention or respect. 

 

Is there something wrong with you? Has that hurt you feelings or something? 

 

Goodness me, take a good  hard look at yourself.

 

You egocentricity is astounding.

 

Leave others alone if they are not interested in your pettiness 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Shadow_self

[MetaDao]

Egocentricity? Really? Trying to convince everyone Neidan should be given away for free and you play that card. You are so scared that I may just be right and you are trying your hardest to disprove me.

 

Anyone with any lineage backing knows these things are correct and possible.

 

Am I correct in saying using a perceptive Sindhi on a student leaves a karmic imprint?

Am I correct in saying these karmic imprints can be perceived by those at the Di Xian level?

Am I correct in saying these karmic imprints are all over not just me but many of Damo’s students?

Am I correct in saying these karmic imprints can be perceived by high level ghosts?

Am I correct in saying there are divination techniques that can be employed to discover these karmic imprints?

Please prove me wrong. I am the evidence. 
 

Am I correct in saying there is no reason Neidan cannot be free?

 

Again, I ask you to prove me wrong.

[Cobie]

 

3 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

… I ask you to prove me wrong.

@MetaDao Please read this:

 

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

… Anyone making claims … the burden of proof always lays with them to substantiate the claims …

 

[MetaDao]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

@MetaDao Please read this:

 

 

Of course. I will let @freeform, my teacher, and others use all their perceptive siddhi on me. Why would I lie?

 

Look at them trying to scapegoat me and sweep it under the rug. I honestly don’t even care about the entire matter. It matters not to me. But, if people like you Shadow are going to endlessly attack my character when I aim to make change within this community, I would rather get this out of the way now. I have absolutely nothing to hide. My soul is laid bare. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

20 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Egocentricity?

Yes

Quote

Really?

Yes, this is how you are behaving.

Quote

Trying to convince everyone Neidan should be given away for free and you play that card.

You have no right to convince anyone of anything. You are entitled to your opinion. You should respect othres

Quote

You are so scared that I may just be right and you are trying your hardest to disprove me.

I am not scared at all. I

Quote

Anyone with any lineage backing knows these things are correct and possible.

But you do not. You live on the other side of the world to your teacher and communicate with him via technology

Quote

Am I correct in saying using a perceptive Sindhi on a student leaves a karmic imprint?

If you have evidence, we can make that assessment

 

So far you haven't provided any, So we can dismiss claims without any evidence by default

 

Provide evidence other than your words, and we can talk about it for sure, in good faith

Quote

Am I correct in saying these karmic imprints can be perceived by those at the Di Xian level?

If you have evidence, we can make that assessment

 

So far you haven't provided any, So we can dismiss claims without any evidence by default

 

Provide evidence other than your words, and we can talk about it for sure, in good faith

Quote

Am I correct in saying these karmic imprints are all over not just me but many of Damo’s students?

If you have evidence, we can make that assessment

 

So far you haven't provided any, So we can dismiss claims without any evidence by default

 

Provide evidence other than your words, and we can talk about it for sure, in good faith

Quote

Am I correct in saying these karmic imprints can be perceived by high level ghosts?

If you have evidence, we can make that assessment

 

So far you haven't provided any, So we can dismiss claims without any evidence by default

 

Provide evidence other than your words, and we can talk about it for sure, in good faith

Quote

Am I correct in saying there are divination techniques that can be employed to discover these karmic imprints?

If you have evidence., we can make that assessment

 

So far you haven't provided any, So we can dismiss claims without any evidence by default

 

Provide evidence other than your words, and we can talk about it for sure, in good faith

Quote

Please prove me wrong.

It is up to you to prove the claims you are making.

 

Do you understand?

 

Your words are not evidence

Quote

I am the evidence. 

No you are not. You need actual evidence

 

If you went to court, and presented any of these arguments you would be dismissed based on a lack of evidence

 

Everything you are saying is anecdotal, you need actual evidence to substantiate anything you are saying

 

Quote

Am I correct in saying there is no reason Neidan cannot be free?

No you are not correct,

 

Because no two people are identical, nor are their circumstances

 

That decision is up to whomever is teaching it

 

It is not for you to say, demand, dictate or preach what others should do with their knowledge and skills

 

They invested their time, money and effort to learn.

 

Whatever they chose to teach it for free, or charge 10k per year is their decision

 

You don't get an opinion on what others should do (thats the egocentricity talking) 

Quote

Again, I ask you to prove me wrong.

Ive already explained to you, you need to provide evidence for a claim in order for me to agree or dismiss it

 

You still have not done that, when you make claims, the onus is on you to provide the evidence.

 

Your words do not qualify as anything other than anecdote 

 

This is a logical fallacy known as the argument from anecdote

 

Please see here

 

Quote

An argument from anecdote is an informal logical fallacy, where anecdotal evidence is presented as an argument; without any other contributory evidence or reasoning. This type of argument is considered as an informal logically fallacy as it is unpersuasive – since the anecdote could be made up, misconstrued or be a statistical outlier which is insignificant when further evidence is considered. This fallacy can often be found in conjunction with the hasty generalisation fallacy – where the hasty generalisation is made from unsubstantiated anecdotes.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Shadow_self