What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[liminal_luke]

Bums like me who don't know "what exactly is neidan" and read this thread in hopes of finding out will be in for a disappointing ten pages.

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

Bums like me who don't know "what exactly is neidan" and read this thread in hopes of finding out will be in for a disappointing ten pages.

Pesky ‘like’ button only allows 1 choice, so I needed to make a post for  lmao. 

[MetaDao]

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Because no two people are identical, nor are their circumstances

 

That decision is up to whomever is teaching it

 

It is not for you to say, demand, dictate or preach what others should do with their knowledge and skills

 

They invested their time, money and effort to learn.

 

Whatever they chose to teach it for free, or charge 10k per year is their decision

This argument would work for anything besides spiritual growth. In the ancient era, many people had the opportunity to achieve Dao. They did this not by spending money but by earning the trust of their teachers. If you understand Dao, you understand that there should be no teachers teaching for any ulterior motives. This is the correct way. You share a materialistic perspective.

 

Again, all your arguments are flawed because they are from a materialistic perspective. As a Daoist, you must understand that this world is not material. The evidence exists for the people that know. You simply just aren’t one of them. Now, stop posting please. You have no say in what is evidence and what is not. You are not an authority from a lineage. In the ancient times, when wrong-doings were brought forth, they were dealt with accordingly. I invoke this rule. The ones who know know of what I speak

[Shadow_self]

22 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

This argument would work for anything besides spiritual growth.

It works just fine and Ill show you why

 

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In the ancient era, many people had the opportunity to achieve Dao.

We are not in the ancient era, so this is irrelevant and dismissible

 

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They did this not by spending money

In the modern world we do this by spending money.

 

You live in the modern world

 

You fantasies about time travelling to a simpler time have no practical application

 

This is also irrelevant and dismissible 

 

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If you understand Dao,

I have no interest in being a Daoist,

 

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you understand that there should be no teachers teaching for any ulterior motives.

Teachers can do as they wish.

 

It is not up to you to decide what any person does with their knowledge, skills and expertise

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This is the correct way.

 

You are not positioned to make such a statement, as evidenced above, it is neither realistic nor practical

 

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You share a materialistic perspective.

That is not materialistic at all. 

 

Materialism is a philosophy based on the existence only being material, which I do not share

 

What I know is we need to live in the material world in order to survive in the physical form, and the way society has developed, that requires monetary exchange for the vast majority of the worlds population

 

Actually if teachers didnt have money, and didnt charge and couldn't afford food and had no alternative means, they could die..and with them, spiritual knowledge

 

So you just proved my point, not only is it permissible, it is necessary because of how the world works

 

Your fantasies hold no place in reality, young man

 

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Again, all your arguments are flawed because they are from a materialistic perspective.

See above

 

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As a Daoist,

I am not a Daoist, and clearly neither are you

 

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you must understand that this world is not material.

 

Actually it is

 

It is our consciousness that defies materialism

 

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The evidence exists for the people that know. You simply just aren’t one of them.

So you have none...great we can dismiss this claim then

 

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You have no say in what is evidence and what is not.

Well no I am not defining evidence, I am telling you what constitutes evidence according to the worlds shared definition

 

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You are not an authority from a lineage.

 

I do not need to be anything to see what you are saying is basically, not backed up by evidence and therefore unsubstantiated and worthy of dismissal

 

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In the ancient times, when wrong-doings were brought forth, they were dealt with accordingly.

 

You are not in the ancient times, so we can dismiss this too

 

I hope you're done now..

Edited November 12, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Wu Ming Jen]

live healthy, happy lives.

The material life must be taken care of first to develop the higher standards of neigung. To be outside of the laws of yin and yang and the five elements, the physical realm we are also inside the material world at the same time. To pass through the gate of life one must have no baggage and clinging desire to fit into such a small space. This can be a reason some have problems turning around and returning to simplicity.

 

Daoists have been exploring and studying the relationship between the universe and the human body for thousands of years. This understanding enables Daoists to use different methods and skills which help them live healthy, happy lives.

 

Daoists used traditional philosophy and psychology in all aspects of their activities, including the problems of the mind. For example, the Daoist long-held practice of inner alchemy, outer alchemy, qigong, and Daoyin, an ancient form of Daoist neigong to cultivate jing (essence), can alleviate health problems within the human body.

 

In their pursuit of health and longevity, Daoists have elevated the principle of using inner power in their martial arts training in building the mind and body strength needed for self-defense. So over time, the trifecta of internal martial arts of XingYi Quan, Bagua Zhang, and Taiji Quan converged into the aegis of what we now know as Neijia Quan (內家拳) – the practice of full awareness of spirit, mind, and qi.

 

Different schools of thought were formed when these Daoist practices of alchemy, rituals, philosophy, and mind and body cultivation converged. Nevertheless, Daoists inherited these different cultures and customs and appreciated many of their contributions to improving all human beings’ health and lives.

[MetaDao]

9 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

o over time, the trifecta of internal martial arts of XingYi Quan, Bagua Zhang, and Taiji Quan converged into the aegis of what we now know as Neijia Quan (內家拳) – the practice of full awareness of spirit, mind, and qi.

Not true, the trifecta of internal martial arts emerged from Neidan.

 

I will no longer be responding or posting in here until I get the response from the required parties. If no one steps forward to stand witness, I will allow this to be done at a later date when I need it according to the law. My words have been recounted and my name will be revealed to those who choose to participate. My teacher stands as my prime witness. If ever, slander comes across my name, I invoke the law for the trial to carry out accordingly. Those within the old lineages know of what I speak. If you come across these words on the forum, contact me.

 

The others will seek to continue their slander and discrediting of my words. My words stand as my testament. Do not let them sway you and see them for the attack of character that they are.

Edited November 12, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

45 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Bums like me who don't know "what exactly is neidan" and read this thread in hopes of finding out will be in for a disappointing ten pages.

 

Im sorry my friend, you must be disappointed. Allow me to spice things up

 

Perhaps I should  use my siddhi you over the internet and make the read worth your while

 

Are you ready? Tell me what you truly desire

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The material life must be taken care of first to develop the higher standards of neigung.

 

This is wisdom  

[Wu Ming Jen]

  Neijia Quan (內家拳) means internal martial arts that combines neigung. understanding enables Daoists to use different methods and skills. Meta your understanding of the nature of things seems to be clouded by something.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Wu Ming Jen

[MetaDao]

3 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

  Neijia Quan (內家拳) means internal martial arts that combines neigung. understanding enables Daoists to use different methods and skills. Meta your understanding of the nature of things seems to be clouded by something.

Ah I did not know the meaning and read it as Neidan. The clouding is the fact that I do not know Chinese.

 

You are correct then. Though the internal martial arts still emerged from Neidan. I am off now.

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 Meta your understanding of the nature of things seems to be clouded by something.

 

Heres a comprehensive assessment of it

 

 

Its a shame. Very distorted perception.

 

I kind of felt a sense of he's young, try to steer him right. It is sad to see that kind of thing

 

One can see the glaring manipulation of a teacher in his words

 

That one should be ashamed of himself.

 

To call him scum would be a compliment 

 

Hopefully time can steer him right...None of us will anyway

[Bindi]

Actually overall I do agree with Meta Dao that someone who has achieved an ultimate state wouldn’t charge money. From another such master (excuse the non daoist reference):

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

(This is not to say that anyone who doesn’t charge is automatically authentic.) 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Im sorry my friend, you must be disappointed. Allow me to spice things up

 

Perhaps I should  use my siddhi you over the internet and make the read worth your while

 

Are you ready? Tell me what you truly desire

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the pic, Shadow_self.  You look exactly as I'd imagined!  I posted somewhat in jest as I've had some training in internal alchemy, that is if you count attending workshops by one of Mantak Chia's oldest students, Michael Winn.  Something tells me you don't count such workshops but I'll share my understanding anyway.  Yin and yang are gathered in an internal cauldron so that the fire of yang heats the water of yin and creates steam which is neither yin nor yang but rather neutral.  In the beginning levels the yin and yang are gathered from ones own body, then earthly surroundings, then from the sun and moon, then the stars...and so forth.  That's my understanding and Michael Winn's alchemical teaching in a very condensed nutshell.  Does this accord with your view?  

 

I gather that this process has something to do with neigong and neidan though I don't know what these terms really mean or how they might differ from each other.  If you're willing to expand on or correct my understanding, please do.

Edited November 13, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Actually overall I do agree with Meta Dao that someone who has achieved an ultimate state wouldn’t charge money. From another such master (excuse the non daoist reference):

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

(This is not to say that anyone who doesn’t charge is automatically authentic.) 

 

I understand where you are getting this from, but there are 2 issues to consider here

 

Firstly is the major logical fallacy known as the appeal to tradition or argument from antiquity

 

Much has changed since this was written, if you apply it to todays world it falls apart because while it seems ideal, it is not practical in reality, except for a very select few.

 

Perhaps if someone had followers they might provide for them, but then, that's just another form of exchange in reality

 

The second and more pressing issue here, is that there is an esoteric reading of the bible given to initiates of certain traditions. This of one of the paragraphs used as an instruction. It is referencing working towards mindfulness. The instructions go a bit deeper than that, but this quote is, oddly enough, the basis from which they are drawn

 

The Dao De Jing has a similar coded set of instructions  

 

One big aspect of these traditions is using the mind to work temporally.

 

The spiritual exercises of St Ignatius have a fine meditation in form of retrospection that spans almost all traditions as well  

[Shadow_self]

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks for the pic, Shadow_self.  You look exactly as I'd imagined!  I posted somewhat in jest as I've had some training in internal alchemy, that is if you count attending workshops by one of Mantak Chia's oldest students, Michael Winn.  Something tells me you don't count such workshops but I'll share my understanding anyway.  Yin and yang are gathered in an internal cauldron so that the fire of yang heats the water of yin and creates steam which is neither yin nor yang put rather neutral.  In the beginning levels the yin and yang are gathered from ones own body, then earthly surroundings, then from the sun and moon, then the stars...and so forth.  That's my understanding and Michael Winn's alchemical teaching in a very condensed nutshell.  Does this accord with your view?  

 

I gather that this process has something to do with neigong and neidan though I don't know what these terms really mean or how they might differ from each other.  If you're to expand on or correct my understanding, please do.

Believe it or not I was one of the few who managed to avoid Chia's work

 

But I've constantly been warned to avoid it to be honest. Ive seen that sentiment echoed here also

 

I think this is a good introduction to Daoist Alchemy as I understand it.

 

Covers it in a little bit detail   I think Damo explains it better than I ever could

 

 

[Bindi]

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I understand where you are getting this from, but there are 2 issues to consider here

 

Firstly is the major logical fallacy known as the appeal to tradition or argument from antiquity

 

Much has changed since this was written,

 

Yes much has changed in the external world, but I’d hazard a guess nothing has changed in terms of inner spiritual realities, in which case this holds as true today as it did then. 

 

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if you apply it to todays world it falls apart because while it seems ideal, it is not practical in reality, except for a very select few.
 

 

I kind of agree with you, I didn’t take the faith road myself, I prefer inner work, but swapping faith for cultivation and relying on that to organise the basic needs is tentatively possible. I had a dream once, a few years back, in which I was told if I wanted to go further I had to promise I would never ask to be paid for anything to do with the ‘spiritual’, there was a document to be signed and all, and after less than a days thought about this I was willing to sign the document figuratively, as payment was a poor second to going further, and a hopeless limitation. So I have a pretty defined view of the whole topic. 

 

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Perhaps if someone had followers they might provide for them, but then, that's just another form of exchange in reality

 

Yes, but it might be better for the soul???

 

edit to add: The lure of wealth might be too great to risk it, there’s only so much I can eat or so many clothes that I need, maybe it’s a way of staying safe from monetary greed to just be provided for. 

 

Quote

 

The second and more pressing issue here, is that there is an esoteric reading of the bible given to initiates of certain traditions. This of one of the paragraphs used as an instruction. It is referencing working towards mindfulness. The instructions go a bit deeper than that, but this quote is, oddly enough, the basis from which they are drawn

 

The Dao De Jing has a similar coded set of instructions  

 

One big aspect of these traditions is using the mind to work temporally.

 

The spiritual exercises of St Ignatius have a fine meditation in form of retrospection that spans almost all traditions as well  

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Bindi

[Wu Ming Jen]

The material life is happy healthy life. Excellent energetic well being,  master the physical plane providing for self and family. Distorted views create desire, riches, fame and many other disorders in the mind and energetic system being destructive to life.

 

The superficial and society created views of clothes, shelter, and food easily steals our riches and wealth beyond any monetary value.

 

Lao Tzu writes, “To know when you have enough is to be rich.”

 

“There is no crime greater than indulging your desires,
There is no disaster greater than not knowing contentment,
There is no calamity more serious than wanting to get ahead,

 

What care if we pay or not. The issue is attachment to the money. We just need to have a better relationship with money and truly know how rich we are with or without.

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Yes much has changed in the external world, but I’d hazard a guess nothing has changed in terms of inner spiritual realities, in which case this holds as true today as it did then. 

 

But does it?

 

If we consider the shift from collectivism to individualism (which is indisputable really) can people truly survive without?  

 

If the same sentiments were there in people that existed then, today , I would be inclined to be far more sympathetic towards such an outlook

 

However, the reality of the world today is different. Because of that, I am not sure sure the dynamics of whats happening beneath the veil are unchanged also, even if the processes are the same

 

We can wonder however  

 

18 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I kind of agree with you, I didn’t take the faith road myself, I prefer inner work, but swapping faith for cultivation and relying on that to organise the basic needs is tentatively possible. I had a dream once, a few years back, in which I was told if I wanted to go further I had to promise I would never ask to be paid for anything to do with the ‘spiritual’, there was a document to be signed and all, and after less than a days thought about this I was willing to sign the document figuratively, as payment was a poor second to going further, and a hopeless limitation. So I have a pretty defined view of the whole topic. 

 However, not everyone is given those same conditions. If I recall, you do healing work? 

 

Nonetheless, I understand this, my Buddhist teacher takes donations only.

 

Whether that be something or nothing, that is at the discretion of the student

 

My other teacher does take payment. Payment I believe is modest.

 

I dont differentiate between to two honestly. i have seen them both do wonderful things.

 

Perhaps in different ways, but yet, wonderful. The difference with the 2nd teacher is a larger following, however, the income supports the ability to reach more people

 

So, where is the tradeoff? Reach less and teach less due to financial constraints? Or charge modestly and reuse than money as a bolster to extend the reach and help more people

 

I dont think either is black/white here, is it?.

 

It depends on what the aim ans said circumstances of teacher in my opinion. There is diversity here

 

29 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Yes, but it might be better for the soul???

 

Why? Is the defining feature of growth what you have, or how you use it?

 

I tend to align more with what @Wu Ming Jen stated, it is finely depicted here imo

 

12 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The issue is attachment to the money. We just need to have a better relationship with money and truly know how rich we are with or without.

 

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

But does it?

 

If we consider the shift from collectivism to individualism (which is indisputable really) can people truly survive without?  

 

If the same sentiments were there in people that existed then, today , I would be inclined to be far more sympathetic towards such an outlook

 

However, the reality of the world today is different. Because of that, I am not sure sure the dynamics of whats happening beneath the veil are unchanged also, even if the processes are the same

 

We can wonder however  

 

 

I don’t see why there would have been any change to the subtle body between now and a few Millenia ago, how messed up it is might have increased if anything, but it’s fundamental nature is almost certainly the same, as is it’s potential. 

 

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 However, not everyone is given those same conditions. If I recall, you do healing work? 

 

 

Yes my dream was specific to what I was doing, I had started charging for healing work, and I stopped charging overnight. For me personally charging was not the way to go. 

 

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Nonetheless, I understand this, my Buddhist teacher takes donations only.

 

Whether that be something or nothing, that is at the discretion of the student

 

My other teacher does take payment. Payment I believe is modest.

 

I dont differentiate between to two honestly. i have seen them both do wonderful things.

 

Perhaps in different ways, but yet, wonderful. The difference with the 2nd teacher is a larger following, however, the income supports the ability to reach more people

 

So, where is the tradeoff? Reach less and teach less due to financial constraints? Or charge modestly and reuse than money as a bolster to extend the reach and help more people

 

I dont think either is black/white here, is it?.

 

It depends on what the aim ans said circumstances of teacher in my opinion. There is diversity here

 

 

Each to their own I guess. I know that I personally would be suspect of anyone asking for money.

 

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Why? Is the defining feature of growth what you have, or how you use it?

 

 

I think my defining feature of growth is how far I can personally progress, and then how I would use it. To be trapped into materialism before I have progressed far would have been a very silly choice for myself, how that progress is used follows on from the earlier decision. 

 

4 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I tend to align more with what @Wu Ming Jen stated, it is finely depicted here imo

 

 

The amount of spiritual teachers who use that argument whilst collecting millions is quite sickening. Cynics and critics of wealthy spiritual teachers are silenced by this sentence, and the wealthy teachers remain wealthy. Better to actively divest oneself of wealth than defend it, because the defence can all too easily disguise attachment. 

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I don’t see why there would have been any change to the subtle body between now and a few Millenia ago, how messed up it is might have increased if anything, but it’s fundamental nature is almost certainly the same, as is it’s potential. 

Has there been a change in humans physical body over the a few millennia?

 

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Yes my dream was specific to what I was doing, I had started charging for healing work, and I stopped charging overnight. For me personally charging was not the way to go. 

Ok I understand this, but not everyone has the capacity or circumstances(or karma) for this

 

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Each to their own I guess. I know that I personally would be suspect of anyone asking for money.

 

 

Perhaps, I tend to judge people on what they do with it, not whether they charge for it

 

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I think my defining feature of growth is how far I can personally progress, and then how I would use it. To be trapped into materialism before I have progressed far would have been a very silly choice for myself, how that progress is used follows on from the earlier decision. 

Being trapped in materialism has nothing to do with what you have and everything to do with how you treat it

 

A person that has 1 million in the bank, but has no attachment to it whatsoever, is spiritually better off than the one with 100 that obsessively clings, hoards, schemes etc etc

 

Its about the relationship to things that dictates the karmic resonance, not the thing itself

 

If you cannot have it without being trapped, thats  a sign you shouldn't, if you can, then why not?

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The amount of spiritual teachers who use that argument whilst collecting millions is quite sickening. Cynics and critics of wealthy spiritual teachers are silenced by this sentence, and the wealthy teachers remain wealthy. Better to actively divest oneself of wealth than defend it, because the defence can all too easily disguise attachment. 

See as above, many people who do charge have no such attachment though

 

As I said before, it seems more circumstantial than anything else

 

I understand this destruction of attachment in certain aspects of my life. Its an interesting phenomena for sure

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

Has there been a change in humans physical body over the a few millennia?

 

Ok I understand this, but not everyone has the capacity or circumstances(or karma) for this

 

 

Perhaps, I tend to judge people on what they do with it, not whether they charge for it

 

Being trapped in materialism has nothing to do with what you have and everything to do with how you treat it

 

A person that has 1 million in the bank, but has no attachment to it whatsoever, is spiritually better off than the one with 100 that obsessively clings, hoards, schemes etc etc

 

Its about the relationship to things that dictates the karmic resonance, not the thing itself

 

If you cannot have it without being trapped, thats  a sign you shouldn't, if you can, then why not?

See as above, many people who do charge have no such attachment though

 

As I said before, it seems more circumstantial than anything else

 

I understand this destruction of attachment in certain aspects of my life. Its an interesting phenomena for sure

I think the Buddhists might have a head start in non-attachment, but perhaps I don’t have a Buddhist past life to draw on, so I have to go a different way. I do think rich Christian, New age and Indian gurus might be more attached than not, I’d be willing to consider rich Buddhist teachers might be rich without attachment, but I might reasonably wonder what on earth they’re still charging for if they already have more than enough to live on. If they’re plowing it all back into the community that would make a big difference to my impression of them. 

[liminal_luke]

Money is a funny thing.  Some people's neurotic tendency might be to overcharge, but I've always considered myself a neurotic undercharger.  Which is not to say that things can't be given away freely in a good way; sometimes they can if one has the right spirit for that.  I don't think one way is better or more virtuous than the other.

[Shadow_self]

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I think the Buddhists might have a head start in non-attachment, but perhaps I don’t have a Buddhist past life to draw on, so I have to go a different way.

Understandable.

 

If I may share something with you, it might be useful 

 

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false

 

Quote

Nutriment and Dependent Origination

“Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those about to come to be. What four? They are: physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth.

 

“Now, bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving. And this craving has what as its source…? Craving has feeling as its source…And this feeling has what as its source…? Feeling has contact as its source…And this contact has what as its source…? Contact has the sixfold base as its source…And this sixfold base has what as its source…? The sixfold base has mentality-materiality as its source…And this mentality-materiality has what as its source…? Mentality-materiality has consciousness as its source…And this consciousness has what as its source…? Consciousness has formations as its source…And these formations have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? Formations have ignorance as their source, ignorance as their origin; they are born and produced from ignorance.

 

Forward Exposition on Arising

“So, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base; with the sixfold base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

 

Reverse Order Questionnaire on Arising

“‘With birth as condition, ageing and death’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, do ageing and death have birth as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Ageing and death have birth as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With birth as condition, ageing and death.’”

“‘With being as condition, birth’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does birth have being as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Birth has being as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With being as condition, birth.’”

“‘With clinging as condition, being’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does being have clinging as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Being has clinging as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With clinging as condition, being.’”

“‘With craving as condition, clinging’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does clinging have craving as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Clinging has craving as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With craving as condition, clinging.’”

“‘With feeling as condition, craving’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does craving have feeling as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Craving has feeling as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With feeling as condition, craving.’”

“‘With contact as condition, feeling’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does feeling have contact as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Feeling has contact as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With contact as condition, feeling.’”

“‘With the sixfold base as condition, contact’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does contact have the sixfold base as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Contact has the sixfold base as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With the sixfold base as condition, contact.’”

“‘With mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does the sixfold base have mentality-materiality as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“The sixfold base has mentality-materiality as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base.’”

“‘With consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does mentality-materiality have consciousness as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Mentality-materiality has consciousness as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality.’”

“‘With formations as condition, consciousness’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, does consciousness have formations as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Consciousness has formations as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With formations as condition, consciousness.’”

“‘With ignorance as condition, formations’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, do formations have ignorance as condition or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Formations have ignorance as condition, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With ignorance as condition, formations. ’”

 

Recapitulation on Arising

“Good, bhikkhus. So you say thus, and I also say thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises.’ That is, with ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base; with the sixfold base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

 

Forward Exposition on Cessation

“But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of mentality-materiality; with the cessation of mentality-materiality, cessation of the sixfold base; with the cessation of the sixfold base, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

 

Reverse Order Questionnaire on Cessation

“‘With the cessation of birth, cessation of ageing and death’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, do ageing and death cease with the cessation of birth or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Ageing and death cease with the cessation of birth, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With the cessation of birth, cessation of ageing and death.’”

“‘With the cessation of being, cessation of birth’…‘With the cessation of clinging, cessation of being’…‘With the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging’…‘With the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving’…‘With the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling’ …’With the cessation of the sixfold base, cessation of contact’…‘With the cessation of mentality-materiality, cessation of the sixfold base’…‘With the cessation of consciousness, cessation of mentality-materiality’…‘With the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness’…‘With the cessation of ignorance, cessation of formations’: so it was said. Now, bhikkhus, do formations cease with the cessation of ignorance or not, or how do you take it in this case?”

“Formations cease with the cessation of ignorance, venerable sir. Thus we take it in this case: ‘With the cessation of ignorance, cessation of formations.’”

 

Recapitulation on Cessation

“Good, bhikkhus. So you say thus, and I also say thus: ‘When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.’ That is, with the cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of mentality-materiality; with the cessation of mentality-materiality, cessation of the sixfold base; with the cessation of the sixfold base, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I do think rich Christian, New age and Indian gurus might be more attached than not, I’d be willing to consider rich Buddhist teachers might be rich without attachment, but I might reasonably wonder what on earth they’re still charging for if they already have more than enough to live on.

I agree with you

 

Then again, how many of them truly

 

#1 Understand the mechanics of such matters

#2 Are actual beings on a path, as opposed to defiled humans looking for positions of power and authority?

 

Considering the current state of things..To me it appears the vast majority fall into camp #2, and are bound by ignorance and greed

 

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If they’re plowing it all back into the community that would make a big difference to my impression of them. 

Likewise

[Taoist Texts]

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Did @Taoist Texts actually say he is at golden embryo level?   

i did;)

[Barnaby]

Pleased to see the direction this thread has just taken...

 

Some of you may well be far more knowledgeable than I, so bear with me if I appear naive

 

It strikes me that this is all about attachment.

 

I get the idea that the student/aspirant should transform their attachment to money, making the actual sum they pass on to their teacher meaningless.

 

But it implies a couple of things.

 

One: it is an idea that could very easily be exploited by unscrupulous teachers.

 

Two: it cuts both ways. Isn't it perfectly reasonable to expect that a teacher's non-attachment to money be considered some sort of benchmark of their own spiritual advancement?

 

Personally – and I'm no model for anything – at this stage in my journey, I feel that having more than a certain amount of money would be unnecessary: a distraction in fact, tempting me to do a load of stuff that I can be perfectly happy without doing...

 

I'm glad that someone brought the gospels into this. I've been wondering how much those of us from judeo-christian contexts are formatted by the whole Christ casting the merchants out of the temple thing, the rich man and the eye of the needle... And yet other traditions have placed a similar emphasis on asceticism and simplicity. I wonder how much this trope of the spiritual teacher coining it in isn't the exception, rather than the rule.

 

Lastly, I'm not convinced by the argument that because this stuff doesn't apply to today's world, it doesn't stand up. Judging by the state of today's world, I'd be taking the fact of something not conforming to its logic as a pretty good sign 

Indeed, isn't one of the basic themes of Daoism this idea of a return to a natural state, untainted by man-made contrivance?