What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[freeform]

20 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

But it still nags at me what if all neidaneers are like that and i am guilty of poking fun at people with issues? I hope not. (sigh)

Never nagged at you that you’re the one with the issues? 
 

Joking aside - yes there’s all kinds of stuff in the spiritual marketplace…

 

Teachers often say it’s up to someone’s Ming whether they find the true path or not… I’ve always though that people are actively led astray while in search of it - and so I have and continue to call out anything dangerous or run by charlatans…

 

But there are many teachers and systems that I consider to be ineffective, misguided, deluded… or simply entranced by some trivial part of the path.

 

They're not particularly harmful… they don’t pose much danger - a kind of harmless hobby.

 

I never call these out. It’s not my place.

 

(though if someone asks I’m not shy to share my opinion).

 

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I am the single person in the entire green world who translated the entire WL legacy from cover to cover.
 

Thats what i sell - the first hand knowledge. Thats the diff. Thats what i have and they dont. We are not the same.

Congratulations on the epic translation effort! That’s quite an accomplishment!

Will you be publishing the translation? Or is there more money in keeping it to a select few?

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Never nagged at you that you’re the one with the issues? 

oh when i wittness a remote cow-tipping i will sure do some serious soul-searching

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Or is there more money in keeping it to a select few?

Those texts are generally useless without my explanations. When published they can bring in barely  a couple of grands. Not an amount for which i can be bothered.

[MetaDao]

Yes. Even when all the answers are staring them in the face, people still can’t find it. It truly is Ming. The guiding force that influences the mind and events around you. I have tried to at least help those with the correct Ming sift through the madness but I am not sure if it even is effective. 
 

Nothing is random. People just emerge from the woodworks spouting lies and showcasing the distortion of their mind. Sometimes I feel it’s hopeless. However, I will keep pushing forward because that is what I do and that is what I always have done. I continue to believe that those with the correct heart and the correct Ming have the correct eyes and ears. They have the discernment to sift through the charlatans. They can spot the truth when it is spoken. And they are able to spot the path even in the darkest of nights. So please, if you can spot the path, take up the torch and walk down it.

 

As you can see, we need more of you, for the path wants to get lost in this dark era.

 

I explained what it is. I explained what it isn’t. I explained who the false teachers were. I explained how you go about finding the true teachers. I explained how you can spot a fraud when you question them surrounding why they charge money. I explained the basic concepts so you could spot the teacher who doesn’t know. I explained the signs to ask for in case someone like Taoist Texts makes a false claim. Use your discernment.
 

If someone says a teacher’s methods don’t work without any evidence, don’t believe it. Try it for yourself and meet the person in person. If someone says a teacher’s methods work but lead to a different destination, take that path if it calls to you. If someone says a teacher has a tendency to misuse powers, don’t completely disregard it just because you place that teacher on a pedestal. Keep it in the back of your mind and always be constantly evaluating their actions. If they don’t inspire you, don’t learn under them because students are a reflection of the teacher.

 

If someone on this forum claims to be a student of so and so, yet they constantly insult people and show poor understanding, you can see that maybe the teacher is the same way. Use your inner judgment for it is the only true guiding light. I do not intentionally spread lies. I intentionally spread the truth. If you don’t want to hear it, that’s your problem.

 

I work on my character day in and day out. I work on refining my soul lifetime after lifetime. If I reach a high attainment, I lower myself continuously to help others do the same. The path is infinite. It is never over. If you are on a finite path with a definite destination, you aren’t on the highest path. The highest path is infinite. The trials are no longer held, but the laws take care of it all the same.

 

In any case, good luck to all of you! I hope to god that you know who does not instantly post right after this proving every point I just made

Edited November 13, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Barnaby said:

It strikes me that this is all about attachment.

 

Attachment and clinging has an intrinsic link to karma, spiritual development, transmigration and transcendence

 

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I get the idea that the student/aspirant should transform their attachment to money, making the actual sum they pass on to their teacher meaningless.

 

But it implies a couple of things.

 

One: it is an idea that could very easily be exploited by unscrupulous teachers.

 

Many things are exploited by teachers, its not just limited to money

 

They often use a students attachment to an opinion, belief systems etc etc as a way to ensure a commitment by reinforcing them.

 

Of course that often leads to a steady stream of income for them

 

The net effect of this, is that the students karmic seeds are further watered and flower/grow, rather than cut off at the root left to wither

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Two: it cuts both ways. Isn't it perfectly reasonable to expect that a teacher's non-attachment to money be considered some sort of benchmark of their own spiritual advancement?

Would that not be situational?

 

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Personally – and I'm no model for anything – at this stage in my journey, I feel that having more than a certain amount of money would be unnecessary: a distraction in fact, tempting me to do a load of stuff that I can be perfectly happy without doing...

Ah but without temptation is it an issue?

 

I just started a new position recently.

 

My job is good, but my hours are such that I only earn enough to keep me going.

 

I have no need for the rest. If I had a need for it, then I would respond accordingly

 

However this is important. If a teacher has a need for it, then that will change

 

If a teacher wishes to build a school for example, they will need funds. If they wish to further their own studies, to help that of their students, they may need funds

 

It really is not a black and white issue.

 

I think it varies person to person

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Lastly, I'm not convinced by the argument that because this stuff doesn't apply to today's world, it doesn't stand up. Judging by the state of today's world, I'd be taking the fact of something not conforming to its logic as a pretty good sign 

Indeed, isn't one of the basic themes of Daoism this idea of a return to a natural state, untainted by man-made contrivance?  

 

It is an issue of what is practical rather than what is aspirational

 

Though a return to simpler times might be a nice utopian concept. How realistic is it in the world we live?

 

The basics of the spiritual path is not to transcend the world, but to transcend worldliness

 

Some people lock themselves away from the world in monasteries for decades, insulating themselves, yet still remain worldly

 

Other can be wealthy, live in the world, have no clinging to it and still make advancements spiritually. The potential for temptation does not equate to the act of attachment. This is the mistake people make. If someone can handle that temptation accordingly, they will remain unmoved

 

Nothing in this domain, from my perspective is black and white. But that's just me  

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

One: it is an idea that could very easily be exploited by unscrupulous teachers.

100%

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

Two: it cuts both ways. Isn't it perfectly reasonable to expect that a teacher's non-attachment to money be considered some sort of benchmark of their own spiritual advancement?

I had it explained to me from a couple angles, and the two I'm remembering are:

1. If you can't get your life in order enough to be financially independent, what hope do you have of accomplishing a much loftier goal such as forming the Dan (so it sets a prerequisite for potential students)

2. Most people don't value something that's given away.  I've heard of good teachers not charging, but I often hear about a lot of non-financial 'hurdles' the students have to pass to receive the instruction.

 

But I take your point - Osho driving 10 gold Rolls Royce or whatever it was as good of a red flag for potential students as any of the others he was showing.

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

Lastly, I'm not convinced by the argument that because this stuff doesn't apply to today's world, it doesn't stand up. Judging by the state of today's world, I'd be taking the fact of something not conforming to its logic as a pretty good sign 

Indeed, isn't one of the basic themes of Daoism this idea of a return to a natural state, untainted by man-made contrivance?  

Forced asceticism is contrived too, though.  If you've got to suppress your urge to indulge in material goods/comforts/etc. then I don't think that can be called natural.

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh when i wittness a remote cow-tipping i will sure do some serious soul-searching

My siddhi unfortunately, are a bit weak, from bilocating to see @liminal_luke  last night

 

But Ill give it a shot...on 3

 

1

2

3

 

 

 

 

Best I can do @Taoist Texts

[Miffymog]

14 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I understand where you are getting this from, but there are 2 issues to consider here

 

Firstly is the major logical fallacy known as the appeal to tradition or argument from antiquity

 

Much has changed since this was written, if you apply it to todays world it falls apart because while it seems ideal, it is not practical in reality, except for a very select few.

 

Perhaps if someone had followers they might provide for them, but then, that's just another form of exchange in reality

 

The second and more pressing issue here, is that there is an esoteric reading of the bible given to initiates of certain traditions. This of one of the paragraphs used as an instruction. It is referencing working towards mindfulness. The instructions go a bit deeper than that, but this quote is, oddly enough, the basis from which they are drawn

 

The Dao De Jing has a similar coded set of instructions  

 

One big aspect of these traditions is using the mind to work temporally.

 

The spiritual exercises of St Ignatius have a fine meditation in form of retrospection that spans almost all traditions as well  

 

I quite like looking into different forms of Christianity. The spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius have now opened another avenue for me, so thank you @Shadow_self.

 

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

 

I quite like looking into different forms of Christianity. The spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius have now opened another avenue for me, so thank you @Shadow_self.

 

 

You are welcome. Its a lesser known book in todays times, but actually theres  a bit of crossover with other traditions if one can read between the lines  

 

Note the error in my words, it should read  meditative practice, not "meditation"  Helps develop a certain quality 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Taoist Texts]

54 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Best I can do @Taoist Texts

And i appreciate the cuteness!

56 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

a remote cow-tipping

one would think this to be a strained joke but back in the 00's that was a popular hoax in china. There was even an article in a taiwanese newspaper about a guy prosecuted for the scam, and i think that russian neidan sect was also boasting of that. And of course the reason why it is always a cow and not some other animal because a cow is the largest farm animal making it easier to rig it with a stunning device. I was surprised the scam made its way into the swiss alps but when the marks can be fleeced a mercedes pricetag i guess it is still cost-effective.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

back in the 00's that was a popular hoax in china.

These days people implant electric devices under their skin to simulate Fa Qi  

 

Being blinded by spectacles is a sure fire way to become entangled in a scam.

 

Then again ‘miracles’ are demonstrated by genuine teachers to demonstrate attainment too…

 

I’ve seen plenty of fake ones and a few real ones too.

 

But the miracles to look for are the ones that happen inside of you as a byproduct of training.

 

No one’s gonna fake the flow of the jade fluid in your own mouth… or the thunderous rumble of your Dantien… or the physical changes in your spine… or head shape… or the piercing white light that fills your vision any time your relax and turn inwards… Or even the easy and relaxed attitude that doesnt ever stop - even when you’re in a stressful situation. 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

And i appreciate the cuteness!

one would think this to be a strained joke but back in the 00's that was a popular hoax in china. There was even an article in a taiwanese newspaper about a guy prosecuted for the scam, and i think that russian neidan sect was also boasting of that. And of course the reason why it is always a cow and not some other animal because a cow is the largest farm animal making it easier to rig it with a stunning device. I was surprised the scam made its way into the swiss alps but when the marks can be fleeced a mercedes pricetag i guess it is still cost-effective.

 

I dont think its a strained joke at all. I think its quite fitting.

 

Remote cow tipping is mild compared to some of the nonsensical claims spread throughout this thread  

 

The Russian Neidan sect. Eh feels more like a cult to me

 

We care not for your measly Yin Shen

We have the super secret Ming practices

 

Just give us all your money   

 

Lest we forget the latest   "cyber siddhi assault"  

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

No one’s gonna fake the flow of the jade fluid in your own mouth…

Oh where is it coming from?

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 the thunderous rumble of your Dantien… or the physical changes in your spine… or head shape… or the piercing white light

This is excellent

Quite close to the break through 

[doc benway]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:22 AM, Taoist Texts said:

haha;), no thats wrong.  No reasonable person would  claim that since the money changes hands then both a con man and a bread baker are both equally 'in commerce'. I teach the real deal - all the seminar-sellers teach second hand gibberish.

 

To answer the question of this topic and to explain the diff between me and them: all of what is called neidan/internal alchemy has come to the West and to the modern china from a historical linage known as the Wu-Lu.

https://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/wu-liu-daoism-in-modern-china.html 

Now, the seminar sellers disguise it under some other real or made up names for marketing purposes but  all of them sell empty verbiage and misunderstood 'methods' borrowed from the WL. It is quite obvious. None of them ever studied a genuine WL legacy text which total to more than 1000 pages. Again, quite obvious.

 

I am the single person in the entire green world who translated the entire WL legacy from cover to cover. Thats what i sell - the first hand knowledge. Thats the diff. Thats what i have and they dont. We are not the same.

 

Interesting article for me, thanks for sharing that.

How definitive is the assertion that all neidan has come to the west and modern China through the Wu-Liu teachings?

Are there resources in English on the topic I can access that you know of?

Are you familiar with the Kunlun Xian Zong Pai (崑崙仙宗) as popularized by Liu Peizhong in Taiwan?

I certainly see some practical similarities with the paper you linked but my teacher never mentioned the Wu-Liu and I haven't seen it discussed in the context of Liu Peizhong. 

There's a lot of info on the five modern trends in Daoist cultivation in Daoism in the 20th Century by David Palmer and Xun Liu. Not much regarding the older connections and sources of practice. 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Lest we forget the latest   "cyber siddhi assault"  

 

There's so much to worry about these days.  So far I've survived all sorts of alledgedly imminent threats, everything from COVID to climate change.  I'm still here despite the threat of nuclear war and civil war, despite clashing views about the ethics of buying sports cars with lucre amassed off Daoist students desperate for immortality or a good time in the sack. I'm still kicking no matter what the pundits are saying now about Red Waves and Red trickles and election fraud yes or no.  Not even super powerful Russian wizard neigung enemies can get me.  Most of the time things turn out OK. 

[MetaDao]

20 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

There's so much to worry about these days.  So far I've survived all sorts of alledgedly imminent threats, everything from COVID to climate change.  I'm still here despite the threat of nuclear war and civil war, despite clashing views about the ethics of buying sports cars with lucre amassed off Daoist students desperate for immortality or a good time in the sack. I'm still kicking no matter what the pundits are saying now about Red Waves and Red trickles and election fraud yes or no.  Not even super powerful Russian wizard neigung enemies can get me.  Most of the time things turn out OK. 

Oh don’t get me wrong. I am in no way concerned about the perceptive siddhi. It hasn’t damaged me the slightest. I am just bringing it to the awareness of the people in Damo’s school. You’ve got the okay with having no privacy and having your whole life analyzed. 
 

That’s why it’s a disempowering process to apprentice under a teacher. In ancient times though, it was understood that such abilities morally and karmically should not be used without the expressed permission and trust of the student. I am simply stating the truth so people can be aware of what they are a part of. 
 

The fact that they now claim I am psychotic is highly laughable. You can see if someone is prone to a psychotic break by examining the channel system

Edited November 13, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

Now that it has come to this: the correct thing to do both karmically and for his own practice is to admit that he has done such a thing and has used perceptive siddhi on his students without their trust or permission.

 

He should then vow to his students and his community to never do this again. Also, it would be great and selfless of him to clear my name from slanderers who know nothing about my character.

 

I greatly respect Damo. In fact, I love him. I hope his school continues. I hope he reaches the level he wishes too. I wish nothing but the best for him and I know he helps a ton of people throughout the world.

 

It is simply the right thing to do, to recognize the academy for the cult like mentality it is promoting. And to be completely transparent and admit his mistakes.

[blue eyed snake]

7 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Now that it has come to this: the correct thing to do both karmically and for his own practice is to admit that he has done such a thing and has used perceptive siddhi on his students without their trust or permission.

 

He should then vow to his students and his community to never do this again. Also, it would be great and selfless of him to clear my name from slanderers who know nothing about my character.

 

I greatly respect Damo. In fact, I love him. I hope his school continues. I hope he reaches the level he wishes too. I wish nothing but the best for him and I know he helps a ton of people throughout the world.

 

It is simply the right thing to do, to recognize the academy for the cult like mentality it is promoting. And to be completely transparent and admit his mistakes.

 

you think Damo has read your thoughts?

[MetaDao]

39 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

you think Damo has read your thoughts?

The Yin Hun contains all memories of your lifetime and it can be searched with perceptive siddhi. 

 

He has used this on multiple students without permission or trust.

 

He can also detach his awareness from his own mind and latch it onto your own. This is a useful ability to help students while meditating. To see exactly what is holding them back.
 

It can also be misused and be used to observe someone in day to day living. All this leaves karmic imprints which can be traced.

Edited November 14, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

There's so much to worry about these days.  So far I've survived all sorts of alledgedly imminent threats, everything from COVID to climate change.  I'm still here despite the threat of nuclear war and civil war, despite clashing views about the ethics of buying sports cars with lucre amassed off Daoist students desperate for immortality or a good time in the sack. I'm still kicking no matter what the pundits are saying now about Red Waves and Red trickles and election fraud yes or no.  Not even super powerful Russian wizard neigung enemies can get me.  Most of the time things turn out OK. 

You underestimate my power, mortal

 

 

You just really want to see that cow tipped remotely don't you?

 

Ugh

 

Fine

 

 

 

 

oops

 

[doc benway]

UPDATE -

@Shadow_self and @MetaDao are suspended for 1 week. I encourage them to cool off and reassess their motivation and commitment for participating here.

Please review the insult policy and forum rules when and if you return.

 

Moving forward with a constructive and respectful discussion of neidan and internal alchemy…

[Geof Nanto]

This song could well be about the obscurities and pitfalls of neidan teachings and practice:

 

 

And a little about aspects of this discussion:

 

Oh we were gone 
Kings of oblivion
we were so turned on
in the mind-warp pavillion

 

This is no easy path that we try to walk to the best of our abilities. Time and time again I see aspects of myself reflected in the behaviour of others. My own folly and the suffering it has brought has taught me a measure of compassion for us all.  

 

[Wilhelm]

Hey guys,

 

I was hoping to kick this thread in the butt a little.  At this point it's clear that there's an endless amount of disagreements about the nature of Nei Dan and the process involved in the Dan formation, but I was wondering where the most likely points of agreement were.

 

i.e. Do most or all systems recognize the stage of transmutation from Jing to Qi (or the firing process, or the lighting of the cauldron) as the initial stage in the Nei Dan process once the foundation is formed?

[Taoist Texts]

19 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Do most or all systems recognize the stage of transmutation from Jing to Qi (or the firing process, or the lighting of the cauldron) as the initial stage in the Nei Dan process once the foundation is formed?

yes all of them because it is a very ancient concept first recorded in a medical classic of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

as 「移精变气」 so it is not unique to neidan. Also it is generally believed that 'Jing to Qi'   stage is the same the foundation and the initial stage.

[Bindi]

Posted in the wrong thread.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Bindi

[Wu Ming Jen]

Once we have physical well being we prep for sitting with our diet to prepare the body for fasting. It is advisable to have water, nuts and honey with you. an adept is needed to check on you in the cave during meditation. Advisable to start with a few days and do not exceed 15 days after you get the hang of it. After this process we need to slowly rebuild our system for eating and being fully engaged in life.

 

This is one requirement for those who wish to practice neidan which is well regulated and supervised.

 

The great image is imageless disregard any  mind created images. kill any attainments of "POWERS" there is so much more. "A sky above the sky".