What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Wu Ming Jen]

On 11/17/2022 at 4:28 AM, Taoist Texts said:

yes all of them because it is a very ancient concept first recorded in a medical classic of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

as 「移精变气」 so it is not unique to neidan. Also it is generally believed that 'Jing to Qi'   stage is the same the foundation and the initial stage.

'Jing to Qi'   stage is the same the foundation and the initial stage.... I concur.

 

The center is called ‘The Mysterious Pass’. It is the place where existence comes forth out of nothingness. Refine Essence until it is full and the Qi is ample. Then the Qi of the True Oneness will be naturally generated, and the mysterious gate will open by itself …

Some safeguard the mountain root [i.e. the bridge of the nose] as if it were the Mysterious Pass. They do not know that the Mysterious Pass is the marvelous metaphor for existence coming forth from nothingness. 

 

Li Shi Fu has further stated that the Mysterious Pass is not the physical form of the third eye, the Tai Yang [太阳] acupuncture point or the pituitary gland, and it is not the formless either.

 

Not inside or outside all separation disappear. form and formless combine. Acupuncture points have no relevance in neidan practice.

 

The acupuncture points are buoyed by the physical body.

[MetaDao]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:05 AM, Wilhelm said:

Hey guys,

 

I was hoping to kick this thread in the butt a little.  At this point it's clear that there's an endless amount of disagreements about the nature of Nei Dan and the process involved in the Dan formation, but I was wondering where the most likely points of agreement were.

 

i.e. Do most or all systems recognize the stage of transmutation from Jing to Qi (or the firing process, or the lighting of the cauldron) as the initial stage in the Nei Dan process once the foundation is formed?

For Neidan, it is Yuan Jing that is refined into Yuan Qi. It must be clarified that it is pre-heaven. That’s the difference between alchemical refinement and Neigong refinement. And, yes. For all Neidan systems, this is a prerequisite. It may just happen in a different order. Because Yuan Jing is the root., the blueprint,  It makes the most sense to start with it, then progress towards the rest of the tree.

Edited November 21, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

Common to all Neidan traditions is the pursuit of the elixir, which can be nourished into the embryo followed by the birth of the embryo into the Yang body.

 

This involves parallel or dual perfection of Xing and Ming.

 

It also requires the transmutation of Yin Shen into Yang Shen.

 

This is done by replenishing the Yuan Jing, refining it into Yuan Qi, refining Yuan Qi to Yuan Shen, refining Yuan Shen, then fusing the refined Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi. Fusing Xing and Ming.

 

Different traditions utilize different methods, which result in slightly different elixirs. The elixirs are always a fusion of Xing and Ming and always transmute Yin Shen to Yang Shen.

 

Where the traditions differ is how they utilize the connection between Xing and Ming to accomplish the various refinements. A divide is created between southern and northern schools according to the natural law of Yin and Yang.

 

If the methods work, the patriarchs/matriarchs of the lineage have the elixir or above.

Edited November 21, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

Then, there are arguments surrounding gate keeping, charging money, fate of students, making the teachings easier to access, restricting knowledge, ect.

 

These are the arguments that get more heated. That’s all you really need to know. The rest is method

Edited November 21, 2022 by MetaDao

[dwai]

What is the difference between yuan Jing, yuan qi and yuan shen?

I’m not interested in textbook answers - can someone explain from an experiential perspective? 

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

What is the difference between yuan Jing, yuan qi and yuan shen?

I’m not interested in textbook answers - can someone explain from an experiential perspective? 

I doubt anyone on this forum could answer that experientially. And, in fact, the only answer to that is to experience it yourself. The experience of those cannot be put into words.

 

Do you have a Neidan practice?

 

I will give the textbook definitions anyway as it’s relevant. Yuan Jing is the energy of your fate. It sits in the background of your life, kinda steering you in certain directions. It can be manipulated and improved to a certain extent. Yuan Qi is original breath. It is the same as Yuan Jing really, just a higher refinement of it. You use this up in daily life. Like the oil in a lamp. 
 

Yuan Shen is original spirit. This is spirit devoid of any distortion. Think of it like awareness of awareness itself. This is the one you truly have to experience to understand. It is devoid of all mind, naturally. It fuses with your personal nature and clears your mind of all distortion. Your lens becomes clear. 
 

Now, if you’re asking, what does it feel like when your Yuan Jing is replenished, can you experience the definition of Yuan Jing and Qi directly? what is it like to refine the Yuan Qi to Yuan Shen? What do you experience when the elixir is formed? These questions are only really answered by your direct teacher. And the answer isn’t complete or satisfactory until you experience it yourself. No explanation will change anything about your own being.

 

You will simply read it and think to yourself “that sounds right, but I don’t feel any different from reading it. Hasn’t changed my life much.”

 

Thats why you need a practice. Everything else is irrelevant without a practice 

Edited November 22, 2022 by MetaDao

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I doubt anyone on this forum could answer that experientially. And, in fact, the only answer to that is to experience it yourself. The experience of those cannot be put into words.

why so many words and labels then?  

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

Do you have a Neidan practice?

No. 

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I will give the textbook definitions anyway as it’s relevant. Yuan Jing is the energy of your fate. It sits in the background of your life, kinda steering you in certain directions. It can be manipulated and improved to a certain extent.
 

hmm…so prarabdha karma? 

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Yuan Qi is original breath. It is the same as Yuan Jing really, just a higher refinement of it. You use this up in daily life. Like the oil in a lamp. 

What’s the difference then?  

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

Yuan Shen is original spirit. This is spirit devoid of any distortion. Think of it like awareness of awareness itself. This is the one you truly have to experience to understand. It is devoid of all mind, naturally. It fuses with your personal nature and clears your mind of all distortion. Your lens becomes clear. 

Whose personal nature? The individual personality? how does the original spirit fuse with what is essentially a changing phenomenon? 

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

Now, if you’re asking, what does it feel like when your Yuan Jing is replenished, can you experience the definition of Yuan Jing and Qi directly? what is it like to refine the Yuan Qi to Yuan Shen? What do you experience when the elixir is formed? These questions are only really answered by your direct teacher. And the answer isn’t complete or satisfactory until you experience it yourself. No explanation will change anything about your own being.

So a direct teacher can make you experience this? Ie can this be transmitted or transferred from one person to another? 

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

You will simply read it and think to yourself “that sounds right, but I don’t feel any different from reading it. Hasn’t changed my life much.”

 

Thats why you need a practice. Everything else is irrelevant without a practice 

So are these - yuan jing, qi and shen substances that can be produced? Ie they didn’t already exist and need to “created”? Or are these present in some form and need to be transformed? Or are these present and “hidden”, and only need to be uncovered? 

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

why so many words and labels then?  

They still have their uses 

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

What’s the difference then?  

Quote

Like ice vs. water. Yuan Qi needs to fill entire body. Need to melt ice to get correct amount of water. This also changes your physiology 

Edited November 22, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

these - yuan jing, qi and shen substances that can be produced? Ie they didn’t already exist and need to “created”? Or are these present in some form and need to be transformed? Or are these present and “hidden”, and only need to be uncovered? 

Present, hidden, and need to be worked with.

 

Channels don’t necessarily already exist though 

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

direct teacher can make you experience this? Ie can this be transmitted or transferred from one person to

True, they can. Though, it still needs to be accomplished by the student

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

The individual personality? how does the original spirit fuse with what is essentially a changing phenomenon?

How indeed? Those with the elixir still have a self(a personality) that operates within the world.

 

It is just a more clear sense of self without distortion

[dwai]

45 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

How indeed? Those with the elixir still have a self(a personality) that operates within the world.

 

It is just a more clear sense of self without distortion

What self? Is there a “self” that operates within the world? It is it simply a transient complex of identity and behaviors? 
 

 

[dwai]

48 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

True, they can. Though, it still needs to be accomplished by the student

What gets transmitted by the teacher?  

 

50 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Present, hidden, and need to be worked with.

 

Channels don’t necessarily already exist though 

What do these channels do? And if present, hidden, where does it reside? 

For the below quote - yuan jing is like ice, yuan qi is like water? What about yuan shen? Gas?
 

Given that ice, water and vapor are all states of water, is it then something similar with yuan jing/qi/Shen? Are they simply different “states” of a more basic stuff? What is that stuff? 

52 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Like ice vs. water. Yuan Qi needs to fill entire body. Need to melt ice to get correct amount of water. This also changes your physiology 

[Miffymog]

...

drunk while posting

Edited November 22, 2022 by Miffymog

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Miffymog said:

...

drunk while posting

Ah man I missed it!

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

For the below quote - yuan jing is like ice, yuan qi is like water? What about yuan shen? Gas?
 

Given that ice, water and vapor are all states of water, is it then something similar with yuan jing/qi/Shen? Are they simply different “states” of a more basic stuff? What is that stuff? 

Different states yes. But you can only truly say that Yuan Jing and Yuan Qi are basically the same. Yuan Shen is a bit different. The metaphor is just used to simplify it.

 

Because Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi fusing gives you the elixir, they cannot be the same. The metaphor doesn’t hold if you are simply fusing vapor and water

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Miffymog said:

...

drunk while posting

Hidden knowledge is addicting yes.

 

Practice is the way to retain the knowledge and use it

[dwai]

27 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Different states yes. But you can only truly say that Yuan Jing and Yuan Qi are basically the same. Yuan Shen is a bit different. The metaphor is just used to simplify it.

 

So how is Yuan Shen a bit different? Is it a different substance? Or is it a by-product of yuan jing & qi?
 

Or is it a yin-yang duality that differentiates Shen from qi? 

Quote

 

Because Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi fusing gives you the elixir, they cannot be the same. The metaphor doesn’t hold if you are simply fusing vapor and water

Based on your earlier description, qi (fuel for the vessel) and Shen (awareness of being aware - Ie basically awareness) fuse to produce an elixir? Aren’t they already “fused”? How would you become aware of this yuan qi thing without being aware (and being aware of being aware)?
 

P.S. I’m using awareness and consciousness interchangeably here. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by dwai

[MetaDao]

41 minutes ago, dwai said:

So how is Yuan Shen a bit different? Is it a different substance? Or is it a by-product of yuan jing & qi?
 

Or is it a yin-yang duality that differentiates Shen from qi? 

Based on your earlier description, qi (fuel for the vessel) and Shen (awareness of being aware - Ie basically awareness) fuse to produce an elixir? Aren’t they already “fused”? How would you become aware of this yuan qi thing without being aware (and being aware of being aware)?
 

P.S. I’m using awareness and consciousness interchangeably here. 

Tough questions

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

yin-yang duality that differentiates Shen from qi? 

This is correct. More complicated but yes.

 

Yuan Shen contains genuine fire.

 

Yuan Qi contains genuine water. This is the difference.

Edited November 22, 2022 by MetaDao

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

This is correct. More complicated but yes.

 

Another way to discuss this is in the context of substantial-insubstantial duality. Qi is more substantial than Shen. But they are really the same “thing”,  just a difference in vibrational frequency (of consciousness).  

There isn’t really a separate substance called Shen which fuses with qi, is there? It is more a case of getting volitional access to the awareness/consciousness aspect. Ie one is not subject to compulsive habits of the mind. So what then is the “elixir?”

[MetaDao]

13 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Another way to discuss this is in the context of substantial-insubstantial duality. Qi is more substantial than Shen. But they are really the same “thing”,  just a difference in vibrational frequency (of consciousness).  

There isn’t really a separate substance called Shen which fuses with qi, is there? It is more a case of getting volitional access to the awareness/consciousness aspect. Ie one is not subject to compulsive habits of the mind. So what then is the “elixir?”

A mix of form and formlessness.

 

There is a substance, yes. It contains the properties of form and formless.

 

It is an energetic substance rather than a physical one.

Edited November 22, 2022 by MetaDao

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

A mix of form and formlessness.

does a thought have form? Or is it formless? Is it substantial or insubstantial when compared with a physical object? 

7 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

There is a substance, yes. It contains the properties of form and formless.

 

It is an energetic substance rather than a physical one.

What is such a substance in essence? Isn’t it simply a modification of consciousness? 

[MetaDao]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

substance in essence? Isn’t it simply a modification of consciousness? 

It is a modification of consciousness and mind, yes. However, it is also more than this.

 

The channels are required to build the elixir and the elixir rotates through the channels. It’s like an engine that you have to build.

Edited November 22, 2022 by MetaDao