What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

It is a modification of consciousness and mind, yes. However, it is also more than this.

What can be more than that which it is made up of? 

6 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

The channels are required to build the elixir and the elixir rotates through the channels. It’s like an engine that you have to build.

Are these channels in the physical body? Or are they in the subtle body? 

[MetaDao]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

thought have form? Or is it formless? Is it substantial or insubstantial when compared with a physical object? 

Thoughts are energy, burned up by fire

[MetaDao]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

What can be more than that which it is made up of? 

Are these channels in the physical body? Or are they in the subtle body? 

Subtle body. Some you open or clear, others have to be built

[MetaDao]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

What can be more than that which it is made up of? 

A quintessence. An alchemical substance 

[MetaDao]

55 minutes ago, dwai said:

isn’t really a separate substance called Shen which fuses with qi, is there?

There is a separate substance. They are energetic substances. Yuan Qi is a real, energetic substance. The same goes for Yuan Shen. When the two fuse, you get something more than what they were when separated. 
 

You are essentially on a path towards returning to ‘original matter.’

 

Original matter is very very high level, up towards heavenly immortal level.

 

I believe this is where the alchemical substances originate

Edited November 22, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

Any more questions? I believe that covers basically everything 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

There is a separate substance. They are energetic substances. Yuan Qi is a real, energetic substance. The same goes for Yuan Shen. When the two fuse, you get something more than what they were when separated. 

 

are your thoughts a separate substance from your mind? 

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

 

You are essentially on a path towards returning to ‘original matter.’

 

Original matter is very very high level, up towards heavenly immortal level.

 

I believe this is where the alchemical substances originate

What is the source of original matter? Is it not consciousness? 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

What is the difference between yuan Jing, yuan qi and yuan shen?

I’m not interested in textbook answers - can someone explain from an experiential perspective? 

I can explain yuan jing to yuan qi from an experiential perspective, yuan Shen not so much yet. Yuan qi is like water that fills a pot like container in the lower dantian,  this container is prone to leaking and needs to be fixed. At a certain point when the container is both fixed and full of water, this water rises drop by drop to the middle dantian, where each drop explodes, and the resulting mist, being heavier than air, settles on the floor of the middle dantian which is the size of a backyard swimming pool, sealing the floor and then slowly filling with further exploded water droplets. In the end it still looks like water, but it’s nature has gone through this alchemical process.

Presumably in time this exploded water, yuan qi, will at some stage undergo another transformation to become yuan Shen in the upper dantian, but I don’t know anything about this yet. 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

Subtle body. Some you open or clear, others have to be built

Where does the subtle body exist if not within consciousness? 
 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

A quintessence. An alchemical substance 

How can the product of something  be its quintessence? The source “thing” is the quintessence, is it not?  

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I can explain yuan jing to yuan qi from an experiential perspective, yuan Shen not so much yet. Yuan qi is like water that fills a pot like container in the lower dantian,  this container is prone to leaking and needs to be fixed. At a certain point when the container is both fixed and full of water, this water rises drop by drop to the middle dantian, where each drop explodes, and the resulting mist, being heavier than air, settles on the floor of the middle dantian which is the size of a backyard swimming pool, sealing the floor and then slowly filling with further exploded water droplets. In the end it still looks like water, but it’s nature has gone through this alchemical process.

Presumably in time this exploded water, yuan qi, will at some stage undergo another transformation to become yuan Shen in the upper dantian, but I don’t know anything about this yet. 

 

That sounds like qi sinking to the dantien and and spilling over and filling everything.

 

FWIW, I experience that everyday after about 2 mins of standing in the wuji posture. This is from Tai chi standing. It’s a lot less complicated than it’s made out to be. 

 

Further, a column rises from the crown upward/descends from the sky into the crown and a very interesting phenomenon happens in the UDT, filling up with a cool subtle energy and flows downward (like honey dripping). 

 

Simultaneously a kind of energetic mist/rain starts pouring on the skin, and soon the whole body becomes soaked in this.
 

Is that what you meant? 

[Bindi]

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

That sounds like qi sinking to the dantien and and spilling over and filling everything.

 

 

IME it’s more specific than this, yuan jing is the direct basis for yuan qi, and yuan qi only fills the middle dantian, yuan jing also only fills its specific container in the lower dantian, they are and remain different from each other and contained. 

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

FWIW, I experience that everyday after about 2 mins of standing in the wuji posture. This is from Tai chi standing. It’s a lot less complicated than it’s made out to be. 

 

Maybe, maybe not. As far as I understand it, External qi might be mistaken for yuan qi, external qi is what people use to interact with other peoples external qi, yuan qi is an internal affair, and not felt by the body, it remains, at least at this stage, subtle. 

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Further, a column rises from the crown upward/descends from the sky into the crown and a very interesting phenomenon happens in the UDT, filling up with a cool subtle energy and flows downward (like honey dripping). 

 

Simultaneously a kind of energetic mist/rain starts pouring on the skin, and soon the whole body becomes soaked in this.
 

Is that what you meant? 

You are referring to the UDT, I have no experience of the UDT to agree or disagree with your experience. The energetic mist I am referring to is contained within the middle dantian, so not equivalent to mist on the skin, which might relate to external qi again. 

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

IME it’s more specific than this, yuan jing is the direct basis for yuan qi, and yuan qi only fills the middle dantian, yuan jing also only fills its specific container in the lower dantian, they are and remain different from each other and contained. 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. As far as I understand it, External qi might be mistaken for yuan qi, external qi is what people use to interact with other peoples external qi, yuan qi is an internal affair, and not felt by the body, it remains, at least at this stage, subtle. 

 

You are referring to the UDT, I have no experience of the UDT to agree or disagree with your experience. The energetic mist I am referring to is contained within the middle dantian, so not equivalent to mist on the skin, which might relate to external qi again. 

What do you mean by “external qi” exactly? are you saying that yuan qi is experienced only “inside” the body? And the qi that is not inside the body is external qi?  Seems pretty limiting, given that there is really no separation between “inside” and “outside” - there is a constant flow circulating in the  “heaven - man - earth” context. That which circulates in the HME context, is that “external qi?”

[Bindi]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

What do you mean by “external qi” exactly? are you saying that yuan qi is experienced only “inside” the body? And the qi that is not inside the body is external qi?  Seems pretty limiting, given that there is really no separation between “inside” and “outside” - there is a constant flow circulating in the  “heaven - man - earth” context. That which circulates in the HME context, is that “external qi?”

To me it’s equivalent to going further in towards the centre and the central channel, as opposed to cultivating the energy fields that exist  throughout and beyond the body. I personally have found this separation of substances and progression from one substance to another to be the natural course of development of the subtle energy body, “HME” may be an ultimate point, but for me, an ultimate point comes after multiple steps. 
 

As some people have mentioned, if you can demonstrate the multiple siddhis that prove a fully developed subtle body, then indeed you have attained the end goal of neidan, but if all you have is a tangible feeling throughout your body and on your skin, chances are you have only developed your weiqi fields, at least to my way of thinking. 

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

To me it’s equivalent to going further in towards the centre and the central channel, as opposed to cultivating the energy fields that exist  throughout and beyond the body. I personally have found this separation of substances and progression from one substance to another to be the natural course of development of the subtle energy body, “HME” may be an ultimate point, but for me, an ultimate point comes after multiple steps. 

 

So do you do all this in dreams or in the waking state? IIRC you relied on dreams to do your cultivation. 

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

As some people have mentioned, if you can demonstrate the multiple siddhis that prove a fully developed subtle body, then indeed you have attained the end goal of neidan, but if all you have is a tangible feeling throughout your body and on your skin, chances are you have only developed your weiqi fields, at least to my way of thinking. 

why do you think the subtle body is not already fully developed? Do you think that the subtle body is something within your physical body that needs to be completed/grown? 
 

also what kind of siddhis do you think demonstrates a “fully developed” subtle body?  As a corollary, what siddhis can one demonstrate as they are growing this supposedly un(der)-developed body to check how far they are from graduation?  
 

 

[Bindi]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

So do you do all this in dreams or in the waking state? IIRC you relied on dreams to do your cultivation. 
 

 

My concept of yuan jing and yuan Shen comes from what my mother saw happening in my subtle body, she had a remarkable talent for being able to see what was going on in both the physical and the subtle energy body. I was able to work with her feedback for about seven years, she’s not able to do it lucidly anymore as she has had a few minor strokes that have disrupted her cognitive ability to share any such information. 

 

Quote

 

why do you think the subtle body is not already fully developed? Do you think that the subtle body is something within your physical body that needs to be completed/grown? 
 

The dantians don’t seem to exist in a leak proof state until they are cultivated in specific ways, Ipso facto they are not able to hold yuan jing or yuan qi until they are sorted, I assume the same for yuan Shen. The subtle channels tend to be blocked in adults at least, so ‘consciousness’ cannot traverse them, nor can  consciousness go through the doors that block its way without deliberate subtle action. 
 

If we all had already completed subtle bodies we should all be able to demonstrate the full range of remarkable siddhis associated with them, clearly very few can demonstrate even one simple siddhi. To ignore siddhis as proof is IMO a simple cognitive error likely based on lack of examples of people who do demonstrate remarkable siddhis. 

 

Quote

 

also what kind of siddhis do you think demonstrates a “fully developed” subtle body?  
 

 

Miraculous healing would be one I’d look for, but also being able to read the hearts and minds of others, and the ability to see what is happening within the physical and the subtle energy body. There is likely to be more, but these would do for a start. 

 

Quote

As a corollary, what siddhis can one demonstrate as they are growing this supposedly un(der)-developed body to check how far they are from graduation?  
 

Personally I think low level healing ability can be cultivated quite early on, but for the more impressive siddhis I think they are much further along the path. Having any other singular siddhi that is not a clear part of a path seems to be more a distraction than a help, as it can lead you down byways that you might never return from. Singular siddhis can be helpful though, but without understanding how they fit into the gradual development of the subtle energy body they seem to be at best an aid, at worst a dark power. 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

My concept of yuan jing and yuan Shen comes from what my mother saw happening in my subtle body, she had a remarkable talent for being able to see what was going on in both the physical and the subtle energy body. I was able to work with her feedback for about seven years, she’s not able to do it lucidly anymore as she has had a few minor strokes that have disrupted her cognitive ability to share any such information. 
 

I’m very sorry to learn about your mother’s strokes. I hope she recovers fully. 
 

So do you have a regular practice now? 

 

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

The dantians don’t seem to exist in a leak proof state until they are cultivated in specific ways, Ipso facto they are not able to hold yuan jing or yuan qi until they are sorted, I assume the same for yuan Shen. The subtle channels tend to be blocked in adults at least, so ‘consciousness’ cannot traverse them, nor can  consciousness go through the doors that block its way without deliberate subtle action.
 

So, what happens to the yuan qi/jing in a leaky dantien? Also, is it really a case of “blocked” or “unformed” channels, or is it more a case of people not really knowing what to do? Where/how to put their attention? 

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

If we all had already completed subtle bodies we should all be able to demonstrate the full range of remarkable siddhis associated with them, clearly very few can demonstrate even one simple siddhi. To ignore siddhis as proof is IMO a simple cognitive error likely based on lack of examples of people who do demonstrate remarkable siddhis. 

Is it possible that ignorance is mistaken to be the same as inability? 
in my experience, the biggest issue is people don’t know. If they do, they lack the conviction to practice. If they practice, they lack the faith in the system. Have all three, and people don’t need much help beyond that. Mostly the barriers are mental, and once the ignorance is dealt with, they are self-inflicted. 

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Miraculous healing would be one I’d look for, but also being able to read the hearts and minds of others, and the ability to see what is happening within the physical and the subtle energy body. There is likely to be more, but these would do for a start. 

Mostly siddhis appear during a certain phase of a certain type of practice, and then disappear (unless someone cravenly holds on to them). It is neither an absolute necessity, nor a sign of attainment of any significance. 

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Personally I think low level healing ability can be cultivated quite early on, but for the more impressive siddhis I think they are much further along the path. Having any other singular siddhi that is not a clear part of a path seems to be more a distraction than a help, as it can lead you down byways that you might never return from. Singular siddhis can be helpful though, but without understanding how they fit into the gradual development of the subtle energy body they seem to be at best an aid, at worst a dark power. 

 

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

That sounds like qi sinking to the dantien and and spilling over and filling everything.

 

FWIW, I experience that everyday after about 2 mins of standing in the wuji posture. This is from Tai chi standing. It’s a lot less complicated than it’s made out to be. 

 

Further, a column rises from the crown upward/descends from the sky into the crown and a very interesting phenomenon happens in the UDT, filling up with a cool subtle energy and flows downward (like honey dripping). 

 

Simultaneously a kind of energetic mist/rain starts pouring on the skin, and soon the whole body becomes soaked in this.
 

Is that what you meant? 

That is post-heaven Qi.

 

Filling your entire body with post-heaven Qi is not the same as filling it with pre-heaven

Edited November 23, 2022 by MetaDao

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

I’m very sorry to learn about your mother’s strokes. I hope she recovers fully. 
 

 

Thank you for your good wishes, but I don’t think she will recover the damaged parts of her brain. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

 

So do you have a regular practice now? 
 

 

I’m still working on a part of the process that she did see and tell me about before she really lost her cognitive ability, plus I have had to revert to dreams again for sole guidance. They’re not as good a source of information, but they are a reasonable second best to me. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

 

So, what happens to the yuan qi/jing in a leaky dantien?
 

 

The same as would happen in any leaky pot, the fluid inside leaks out no matter how often fluid is put in. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Also, is it really a case of “blocked” or “unformed” channels, or is it more a case of people not really knowing what to do? Where/how to put their attention? 
 

 

With the channels I have found the Indian Yoga information to be more accurate to what I have come across, and just like in Yoga the two side channels do need to be cleared of blockages, whilst the central channel is more ‘unformed’. How to clear them or form them as the case may be is the billion dollar question IMO. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Is it possible that ignorance is mistaken to be the same as inability? 
in my experience, the biggest issue is people don’t know. If they do, they lack the conviction to practice. If they practice, they lack the faith in the system. Have all three, and people don’t need much help beyond that. Mostly the barriers are mental, and once the ignorance is dealt with, they are self-inflicted. 
 

 

There are hundreds if not thousands of different systems, knowing a particular system might be the best most people can do, but that system might not reflect the reality of the subtle system, and even if it did get the basics it’s unlikely to be in possession of the method to progress with the full cultivation of the subtle energy body. Perhaps the ‘men of old’ did know once upon a time, perhaps a few know now, I personally haven’t seen any evidence of it though, and I certainly don’t have anyone available to guide me except for my own resources. C’est la vie. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Mostly siddhis appear during a certain phase of a certain type of practice, and then disappear (unless someone cravenly holds on to them). It is neither an absolute necessity, nor a sign of attainment of any significance. 

 

Appearing and then disappearing sounds like energy briefly activating something and then passing on, if the system is cultivated correctly I suspect the siddhis would be permanent. It is your belief system that states siddhis are neither necessary nor a sign of attainment, very nondual, I believe the opposite, and in this we can only differ. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

Appearing and then disappearing sounds like energy briefly activating something and then passing on, if the system is cultivated correctly I suspect the siddhis would be permanent.

This is an establish phenomenon in the Indian yogic systems. Doing certain Kriyas activate these siddhis. For example, doing a certain number of repetitions of a mantra will produce certain siddhis. It is called “mantra siddhi”.  Think of it like a medicine - when its work is done, it flushes itself out of the system. Other types of siddhi could be a result of meditation, these are called dhyanasiddhis - and usually when the power built up during the meditation is properly used towards a higher goal, they will disappear.
 

Siddhis are always a side effect, and never a means to prove/disprove attainment of “levels”. 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, MetaDao said:

That is post-heaven Qi.

 

Filling your entire body with post-heaven Qi is not the same as filling it with pre-heaven

How is it different from pre-heaven qi?

The distinction seems like a bit of pedantry to me.  

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

This is an establish phenomenon in the Indian yogic systems. Doing certain Kriyas activate these siddhis. For example, doing a certain number of repetitions of a mantra will produce certain siddhis. It is called “mantra siddhi”.  Think of it like a medicine - when its work is done, it flushes itself out of the system. Other types of siddhi could be a result of meditation, these are called dhyanasiddhis - and usually when the power built up during the meditation is properly used towards a higher goal, they will disappear.
 

Siddhis are always a side effect, and never a means to prove/disprove attainment of “levels”. 

It depends where you look, Saint Seraphim of Sarov (1759 - 1833) could by all accounts both miraculously heal as well as know what was in a person’s heart. More likely to my mind is that the way to produce these permanent siddhis has dried up in many traditions, so ideas like ‘side effects’ and siddhis not being a proof of attainment become the norm to justify the lack of siddhis in various traditions, not necessarily the truth about the nature of siddhis. Setting the bar low makes it easier for followers to believe they have achieved the highest levels. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, MetaDao said:

That is post-heaven Qi.

 

Filling your entire body with post-heaven Qi is not the same as filling it with pre-heaven

Naming it post-heaven qi is probably better than naming it wei qi, I named it thus because of the few instances where extraordinary qi levels have been referred to, but they always seem to be felt or noticed externally to the body. 

[mcoolio]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Naming it post-heaven qi is probably better than naming it wei qi, I named it thus because of the few instances where extraordinary qi levels have been referred to, but they always seem to be felt or noticed externally to the body. 

 

Holup holup! Dont understand sentence, but, weiqi != post heaven qi right?

 

What is the distinction about pre and post heaven qi anyway? Does small circulation work on preheaven qi?

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

It depends where you look, Saint Seraphim of Sarov (1759 - 1833) could by all accounts both miraculously heal as well as know what was in a person’s heart. More likely to my mind is that the way to produce these permanent siddhis has dried up in many traditions, so ideas like ‘side effects’ and siddhis not being a proof of attainment become the norm to justify the lack of siddhis in various traditions, not necessarily the truth about the nature of siddhis. Setting the bar low makes it easier for followers to believe they have achieved the highest levels. 

Maybe saint seraphim was simply stuck at a middling level.