What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Immortal4life]

Oh yeah, you could argue the ultimate level is just complete realization of the mind's oneness with the universal energy. 

 

Attaining the "prana mind" so to speak.

[MetaDao]

24 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

Oh yeah, you could argue the ultimate level is just complete realization of the mind's oneness with the universal energy. 

 

Attaining the "prana mind" so to speak.

What do you mean by ultimate level?

 

Is there an ultimate level?

[Immortal4life]

Of course 

[MetaDao]

Why does there have to be an ultimate level?

[MetaDao]

That would mean that spiritual growth is finite. Do you believe it is?

[Immortal4life]

I mean an ultimate level that a human being can practice at

[MetaDao]

13 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

I mean an ultimate level that a human being can practice at

Ah, yes, then there is an ultimate level for humans. My bad

 

Continual practice takes you beyond human level but I guess you could say there is an ultimate destination a human could practice at. Anything above that is above the human level

Edited November 25, 2022 by MetaDao

[freeform]

On 23/11/2022 at 8:37 PM, dwai said:

On the topic of pre-heaven and post-heaven qi, they are not really separate things as I understand it. At one level, there is a continuum of flow happening between the universe (microcosm) and the individual (microcosm). It’s that double toroidal structure, the two vertices are above the crown and below the feet. We can call this the “transactional reality” (Heaven-Man-Earth). 
 

At another level, there is no separation between microcosm and microcosm at all, since all of it is appearing in consciousness. We can call this the “absolute reality” or “Dao”. 
 

The transactional reality appears in the absolute reality.

 

The alchemy is a matter of realization, not of attainment/creation/production. 

The alchemical model (concepts like Jing, Qi, Shen) are not philosophical models. 
 

They are not designed to give an accurate model of ‘truth’. They’re not designed for examination. They’re not designed for contemplation or for creating insight.

 

They're just pragmatic names for things one comes across inside.

 

They only hold transactional meaning - not absolute meaning. The framework is designed to explain and guide internal practice.

 

Coming up with philosophical understandings from this mental framework, I think is not particularly useful.

The periodic table is a model with absolute meaning… it’s a map of ‘truth’. 
 

The compounding instructions for creating chemical compositions aren’t a map of truth - they’re pragmatic operational instructions. The alchemical model is closer aligned to this than to the periodic table.

 

Neidan is NOT about realisation. Or not just about realisation. Building, creating, attaining absolutely are an aspect of Neidan.

 

Not all Daoist methods are Neidan-focused. There are Daoist approaches to realisation. But these are not Neidan. 

 

[freeform]

On 23/11/2022 at 1:36 AM, dwai said:

Mostly siddhis appear during a certain phase of a certain type of practice, and then disappear (unless someone cravenly holds on to them). It is neither an absolute necessity, nor a sign of attainment of any significance. 

For tantric paths like Daoist alchemy, siddhi are very much part of the path.

 

It’s like saying that the various expressions of jin are not a sign of attainment in Taiji.

 

Yes if you make Taiji a choreographic art for the elderly…

 

But jin does appear as a product of genuine training. If it doesn’t appear then you’re not really training Taiji… or at least you’re not training it for it’s intended purpose.

 

Similarly If siddhi don’t appear, if physiological changes don’t manifest, then something isn’t quite right with one’s alchemical training.

 

The vast majority of Taiji practitioners never develop jin… the vast majority of alchemists never develop siddhi - this is true. But that just shows you that it’s not an easy thing to achieve - not that it doesn’t exist.

 

 

[Barnaby]

14 minutes ago, freeform said:

Neidan is NOT about realisation.

 

So what is is about?

 

Genuine question 

[freeform]

Oh and before this comes up again (as it always does).

 

Siddhi are NOT the aim for (most) alchemical systems. If it’s a spiritual system, then siddhi are not the aim.

 

But they are byproducts. And they’re used as clear indicators of the completion of various processes.

 

Internal experiences are generally not trusted as indicators of completion.
 

I know it’s not quite a ‘siddhi’, but when I first had the jade fluid begin to flow, my teacher stuck his grubby finger in my mouth, pulled it out and tasted it. Nodded in approval and walked off 😅

[MetaDao]

7 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

So what is is about?

 

Genuine question 

Spiritual immortality in order to spread Dao to all living things.

 

As you transmute your being, you’re also presented the opportunity to create harmony between Heaven and Earth.

 

Realization is simply a milestone along the path. It is not about freeing yourself from the reincarnation cycle either. That’s another milestone. People approaching the arts from that perspective are selfish.

Edited November 25, 2022 by MetaDao

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

The alchemical model (concepts like Jing, Qi, Shen) are not philosophical models. 
 

They are not designed to give an accurate model of ‘truth’. They’re not designed for examination. They’re not designed for contemplation or for creating insight.

 

They're just pragmatic names for things one comes across inside.

 

They only hold transactional meaning - not absolute meaning. The framework is designed to explain and guide internal practice.

 

Coming up with philosophical understandings from this mental framework, I think is not particularly useful.

The periodic table is a model with absolute meaning… it’s a map of ‘truth’. 
 

The compounding instructions for creating chemical compositions aren’t a map of truth - they’re pragmatic operational instructions. The alchemical model is closer aligned to this than to the periodic table.

 

Neidan is NOT about realisation. Or not just about realisation. Building, creating, attaining absolutely are an aspect of Neidan.

 

Not all Daoist methods are Neidan-focused. There are Daoist approaches to realisation. But these are not Neidan. 

 

The problem with your position is that you think there’s a distinction between what you call “philosophy” and “doing”. Assumption is that philosophy is “mental” which is somehow less “real” than doing?

 

That is a very western way of approaching the wisdom traditions. What you call philosophy in this context is not simply mental (Ie monkey mind level). Iy deals directly with reality and realization in a apperceptive manner.

 

I don’t see any dichotomy there between alchemy and what you call “philosophy”. It is a direct and always accessible reality. 

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

So what is is about?

 

Genuine question 

Actualisation.

 

Realisation is an intermediate step for alchemists. This realisation is ‘made real’.

 

To an alchemist, physical reality is just one part of spiritual reality… once the spirit is touched, it is developed through every aspect of reality… including the physical…

 

To an alchemist, a spiritual realisation is only complete, once it has become actualised in the physical realm (as well as the many other non-physical realms).

[Taoist Texts]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

I first had the jade fluid begin to flow,

oh congrats. where exactly did it flow from?

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

For tantric paths like Daoist alchemy, siddhi are very much part of the path.

 

It’s like saying that the various expressions of jin are not a sign of attainment in Taiji.

 

Yes if you make Taiji a choreographic art for the elderly…

 

But jin does appear as a product of genuine training. If it doesn’t appear then you’re not really training Taiji… or at least you’re not training it for it’s intended purpose.

 

Similarly If siddhi don’t appear, if physiological changes don’t manifest, then something isn’t quite right with one’s alchemical training.

 

The vast majority of Taiji practitioners never develop jin… the vast majority of alchemists never develop siddhi - this is true. But that just shows you that it’s not an easy thing to achieve - not that it doesn’t exist.

 

 

Taiji Jin is not the same as a “siddhi”, though it might look/feel similar - it is pretty awesome though, but not the same thing.
 

Patanjali’s yoga sutras has an entire section dedicated to siddhis — called the vibhuti pada. TL;DR is - they are epiphenomena, and different ones may or may not manifest depending on the individual practitioner. They are neither necessary nor indicative of the “level” of a yogi/tantric. 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

What you call philosophy in this context is not simply mental (Ie monkey mind level). Iy deals directly with reality and realization in a apperceptive manner.

Not at all.

 

I think insight is the key process of spiritual growth in some paths.

 

These paths use specific frameworks and concepts that are designed to help insight arise. (Like a koan for example)

 

The Daoist alchemical models are not like that at all. That’s not their intended purpose. They’re simply used to describe an inner process.

 

It would be a clumsy tool for generating insight  

[dwai]

Just now, freeform said:

Not at all.

 

I think insight is the key process of spiritual growth in some paths.

 

These paths use specific frameworks and concepts that are designed to help insight arise. (Like a koan for example)

 

The Daoist alchemical models are not like that at all. That’s not their intended purpose. They’re simply used to describe an inner process.

 

It would be a clumsy tool for generating insight  

I’m not saying they are. I’m suggesting that they are preparatory for the mind to be able to have those insights. An unprepared mind is incapable of realization - that is what alchemy is.  
 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Taiji Jin is not the same as a “siddhi”, though it might look/feel similar - it is pretty awesome though, but not the same thing.

Yup - I agree. Just using Taiji as an example  

 

Quote

Patanjali’s yoga sutras has an entire section dedicated to siddhis — called the vibhuti pada. TL;DR is - they are epiphenomena, and different ones may or may not manifest depending on the individual practitioner. They are neither necessary nor indicative of the “level” of a yogi/tantric. 

Yeah I’m aware of this.

 

However in Daoist alchemy they are used. Certain siddhi come about as a byproduct of certain processes having matured.

 

Different paths do different things  

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh congrats. where exactly did it flow from?

Sorry buddy - not a conversation for general consumption  

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

I’m not saying they are. I’m suggesting that they are preparatory for the mind to be able to have those insights. An unprepared mind is incapable of realization - that is what alchemy is.  
 

Daoist alchemy is not concerned with insights that much.

 

You’re more likely to get penetrating insights attending to a flower than to the neijing tu.

 

Not so with much of the Buddhist stuff though!

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

Daoist alchemy is not concerned with insights that much.

 

You’re more likely to get penetrating insights attending to a flower than to the neijing tu.

Do you think the absolute only presents itself in certain things and not in others? Every thing, phenomenon, action, has five aspects. Names and forms (which is what most people stop at). The other three aspects are of being, light, and bliss. This is known to those who have learned how to see. So whether it is a flower, or neijing tu, those who can discern can get not just penetrating insights but full blown realization. 

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Not so with much of the Buddhist stuff though!

Haha your buddy seems to think otherwise  

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by dwai

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Haha your buddy seems to think otherwise  

  Hide contents

 

 

Haha - as far as I’m concerned I hear him completely agreeing with what I’ve been saying.
 

I just don’t agree that the end result is reaching ‘realisation’ for Daoist alchemy.
 

But that’s a great clip, thanks  

[Master Logray]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

The Daoist alchemical models are not like that at all. That’s not their intended purpose. They’re simply used to describe an inner process.

 

 

This is the best description on the purpose of Taoist alchemy.   People are using it for many purposes. 

[Taoist Texts]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

Sorry buddy - not a conversation for general consumption  

hehe - well you see there are two sources of the fluid. one is advanced another is not so much but both are good and not one of them is secret both are in OSINT. come on tell us, it will not impugne you!