What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[freeform]

28 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Could I ask what it is that you found so inspiring? 

It’s not easy to explain - because there are two sides to it.

 

The internal arts build a lot of power - and it takes great strength and spiritual insight to wield power without it affecting your nature and feeding the darker aspects of self.

 

Ive seen countless ‘masters’ who got corrupted. One of my friends got corrupted in this way too. It’s extremely common in these arts!

 

We think we’re good people. But often, we’re only good people because we’ve never had this possibility. 
 

When presented with riches, status and sex, most of us are only too happy to step on people to get these things.
 

What inspired me is seeing how my teacher and his seniors not only had incredible skill, could generate genuine power, but also not be corrupted by it at all - instead they were very much the exact opposite, kind, creative, genuine, without a shred of self-importance or selfishness. Not false humility and a mock-spiritual veneer for show - but genuine humbleness - and a genuine appreciation of everything.

 

And I t’s always the difficulties in life that really let you see someone’s true colours. This is the other side of the equation.

 

I was never good with stressful situations or difficulties in life. I’d get really overwhelmed when things aren’t going smoothly - and I wasn’t a very nice person to be around.

 

One of my friends at the school was involved in a terrible car accident. It was catastrophic - he lost everything - not just the use of his body, but his livelihood and ability to support his family. He went from very healthy, strong, capable - and pretty successful at his job - to losing all of that. No future in the internal arts, no future in his career, no bright future for his family.
 

Yet I think I suffered far more as an observer than he ever did.

He literally just accepted the situation fully - never feeling sorry for himself, never losing his humour or kind nature. 
 

I was seriously distraught. It was such a big shock to me.

 

But my teacher? He was also unbothered! At first it felt as if he didn’t care - but he did, he would visit the hospital every day for treatment in the beginning. But he never made a big deal of what had happened.

 

My friends level of recovery over the years is also a huge inspiration - but not as much as his attitude at that time.

 

Being a good person in the face of difficulty… being morally upright in the face of corrupting influences - that’s what I found most inspiring.
 

The incredible level of skill and dedication was also cool though  

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

According my teachers, the “governing” part was not part of the original teachings, but got bolted on later by someone else. DDJ is a complete and self-contained means of attaining Realization.  Nothing more is needed if one can understand and follow what it is pointing to. 

The ‘people’ are aspects of the heart-mind.

 

The governing is happening internally. 
 

When read in this way, it’s clearly a method of inner cultivation…

 

(Neidan is quite different to the DDJ method though)

[dwai]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

The ‘people’ are aspects of the heart-mind.

 

The governing is happening internally. 
 

When read in this way, it’s clearly a method of inner cultivation…

Agreed. 

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

(Neidan is quite different to the DDJ method though)

Sure, I see them like how Advaita Vedanta and non-dual Tantra are different in approach. We can extract patterns out of this of course - one works with the mind and direct apperception, the other works on preparing the body and/or mind - indirect, before starting the direct path.
 

In Kashmir shaivism, this is articulated by the different upayas - the wisdom/direct path is shambhavopaya.  If that’s not working,  we have the shaktopaya, if that doesn’t work, there is anvopaya for those who need it. 

[S:C]

What according to daoist scripture and doctrine happens at ‚realization‘ on the meta-physical plane with the person that has this occurring to themselves? 
What happens on the meta-physical sphere when someone ‚turns the light around‘? 
What happens on the meta-physical sphere when Yang Qi is rising? 
And what happens on that meta-physical sphere when one touches on the central channel? 
 

Is any one of those an equivalent of what happens at death? Or partly?
 

Is something lost or something (freedom?) gained? 

Edited November 25, 2022 by schroedingerscat

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, dwai said:

one works with the mind and direct apperception, the other works on preparing the body and/or mind - indirect, before starting the direct path.

I’m not really familiar with non-dual tantra - but with Neidan, in my own experience, it’s a little different.

 

Of course we prepare the body and mind at an early stage - but in reality that part of the process is known as Yang Sheng Fa… not alchemy… stuff like diet, qigong, regulating emotions, mental skill and so on fall into this category. This isn’t considered alchemy - and can be used independently for leading a healthy life or improving whatever your chosen endeavour is.

 

The crux of the alchemical method is to generate the Elixir by working with the substances that underpin consciousness…

 

Thats why Qi is so important… it’s the basic substance at the base of all manifestations.

 

Every state of consciousness is considered to have some form of substance… not just physical substance - it can be energetic or even more subtle still - but it’s still a substance from an alchemical pov.

 

Mindfulness has a substance… Samadhi has a substance… fear has a substance… realisation has a substance.

 

We’re not preparing the body/mind/energy for some other method like insight… using the substances is the alchemical method.
 

In alchemy, Insight is a byproduct (just as some internal tantric/alchemical process may happen as a byproduct of insight in some traditions). 

 

Alchemy is not preparatory.

 

In fact the DDJ process (for some teachers) is part of what’s known as ‘the middle vehicle’ for alchemical cultivation… so in effect it is considered as an early or intermediate level of preparation for Neidan.

[markern]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Alchemy, I believe is actually relatively more modern than most people seem to think… 

 

The DDJ path is an older one. It is said that the end result of DDJ and Neidan are quite different… 

 

How modern do you think it is?

[dwai]

46 minutes ago, freeform said:

Every state of consciousness is considered to have some form of substance… not just physical substance - it can be energetic or even more subtle still - but it’s still a substance from an alchemical pov.

This is where precision in language plays a big role in removing confusion.
 

Consciousness is not a thing, so it can never be some form of substance. Mind is a subtle substance and “states of consciousness” really is different states of mind - waking, dreaming, deep sleep (or physical, astral, causal). Consciousness itself is that which is reflected in the mind stuff - thereby producing knowledge (names and forms). So duality - I.e., the yin and Yang which you combine to form the elixir, cannot possibly go beyond consciousness (only the mind). Everything arises from this formless, insubstantial, empty consciousness - be it qi, Shen, jing, mind, etc. 

 

This is an earlier attempt to help some people see what I mean -

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by dwai

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Being a good person in the face of difficulty… being morally upright in the face of corrupting influences - that’s what I found most inspiring.

 

It feels like you're talking about aspects of attachment/non-attachment.

 

Acceptance of change without needing to take it personally.

 

Not attaching to new desires made possible by change. 

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

The internal arts build a lot of power - and it takes great strength and spiritual insight to wield power without it affecting your nature and feeding the darker aspects of self.

 

Yeah, I guess my question really is: what is that power for?

 

On a more trivial level, it reminds me of how I lost interest in the martial arts. It started to feel like everyone was seeking mastery either as an antidote to fear and insecurity, or for the power that mastery would confer, or some combination of the two.

 

You know, I see these videos of qi emissions (real? fake?), and it's just like: what's the point?

[ChiDragon]

I had glanced through the 19 pages of this thread. So far, I have seen the definition of nei dan, described here, is not even close to the Chinese definition(內丹). I had tried to explain many times in different sites. Unfortunately, people just treated as misinformation. Even asked for me to be banned.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

What according to daoist scripture and doctrine happens at ‚realization‘ on the meta-physical plane with the person that has this occurring to themselves? 
What happens on the meta-physical sphere when someone ‚turns the light around‘? 
What happens on the meta-physical sphere when Yang Qi is rising? 
And what happens on that meta-physical sphere when one touches on the central channel? 
 

Is any one of those an equivalent of what happens at death? Or partly?
 

Is something lost or something (freedom?) gained? 

For me this is the best image of the actual meta-physical/subtle energy body* that I have so far come across, it’s a very personal image but I still see the sense of it:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/51672-emotions-are-the-path/?do=findComment&comment=947903

 

Some texts refer to the alchemical body as a substance converted into gold, a million miles away from a ‘realisation’. To me something is gained if it’s done right, the ‘alchemical body’, as well as the ability to wield it. 

 

* The central channel would be the gold sword and hilt, the two side channels (the black and white snakes) would be ida and Pingala nadi’s and how they relate to the central channel, ie. crossing over at the 3 dantians, and the blue gem at the top would represent the culmination of the alchemical ‘pearl’ that is produced via the dantians. 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Bindi

[Wilhelm]

40 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I had glanced through the 19 pages of this thread. So far, I have seen the definition of nei dan, described here, is not even close to the Chinese definition(內丹). I had tried to explain many times in different sites. Unfortunately, people just treated as misinformation. Even asked for me to be banned.

What do you think the dictionary definition adds that hasn't come up yet?

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

What do you think the dictionary definition adds that hasn't come up yet?

If the person who wrote the dictionary doesn't understand what nei dan is, the dictionary will never have the complete definition of the term nei dan. I can only give the Chinese translation of the nei dan definition.

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

If the person who wrote the dictionary doesn't understand what nei dan is, the dictionary will never have the complete definition of the term nei dan. I can only give the Chinese translation of the nei dan definition.

So what came first - your understanding of Nei Dan or your translation of the characters?

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

So what came first - your understanding of Nei Dan or your translation of the characters?

My understanding comes first from the original Chinese definition or explanation articles, other than just the characters. The translation was done for the non-native speakers.

[Wilhelm]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

My understanding comes first from the original Chinese definition or explanation articles, other than just the characters. The translation was done for the non-native speakers.

Then it would follow that Nei Dan as you understand it is accessible to anyone with reading comprehension of Chinese and an internet connection?

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Then it would follow that Nei Dan as you understand it is accessible to anyone with reading comprehension of Chinese and an internet connection?

Exactly!

[Wilhelm]

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Exactly!

It's a wonder practitioners aren't just pouring out of southeast Asia then!

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

It's a wonder practitioners aren't just pouring out of southeast Asia then!

 

There are so many just want to make some bucks and make up some fictional stories to attract the people. That is why it is so confusing, people don't know what to read but just took it for granted.

[Wilhelm]

21 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

There are so many just want to make some bucks and make up some fictional stories to attract the people. That is why it is so confusing, people don't know what to read but just took it for granted.

Doesn't that make Nei Dan seem a bit rudimentary of a pursuit?  For example, we might be able to learn to solve a Rubik's cube using online tutorials, but we wouldn't be able to play tennis past a recreational level without instruction.

 

Is Nei Dan really so basic?

[ChiDragon]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Doesn't that make Nei Dan seem a bit rudimentary of a pursuit?  For example, we might be able to learn to solve a Rubik's cube using online tutorials, but we wouldn't be able to play tennis past a recreational level without instruction.

 

Is Nei Dan really so basic?

The basic part is to understand what it is first before the pursuit.

[Wilhelm]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The basic part is to understand what it is first before the pursuit.

So its rudimentary in its instruction, but how difficult do you think it is to achieve?  It is like finishing a marathon, or becoming the fastest man alive?  Both just have the instruction of running a certain distance or speed, but one is difficult and the other near impossible.

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

So its rudimentary in its instruction, but how difficult do you think it is to achieve?  It is like finishing a marathon, or becoming the fastest man alive?  Both just have the instruction of running a certain distance or speed, but one is difficult and the other near impossible.

I was hoping you would ask me what the definition of Nei Dan is before any further questions.

[Wilhelm]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I was hoping you would ask me what the definition of Nei Dan is before any further questions.

That's ok, I found it using the search function.

[ChiDragon]

This is what I had done before in 2013.

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

That's ok, I found it using the search function.

Is that the definition you like to use or because it is the way you think it should be.