What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Is that the definition you like to use or because it is the way you think it should be.

No, the definition I go by came up early on in the thread.  But it was interesting hearing your perspective!

[Taoist Texts]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

Could you give an example please, of text in the DDJ that’s about governing a state “quite brutally”.

 The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. 

DDJ5

 

the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. 

DDJ3

https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing/ens

 

[Cobie]

@Taoist Texts Thank you for your reply.  

 

Quote

… the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. 

DDJ3

(my bold)

 

  To be the 其  or not to be the 其  , that is the question.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/16471-ttc-study-chapter-3-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?do=findComment&comment=578097

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Your DDJ Ch 3 quote: 

On 03/09/2014 at 4:39 AM, Taoist Texts said:

… 'they' 其 refers not to the people but to the rulers themselves.

 

Could you please tell me how you do substantiate your claim, “DDJ is a manual for governing a bronze age state .. and quite brutally too!”

 

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

20 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Could you please tell me how you do substantiate your claim, “DDJ i

of course i will be happy to oblige. Please start a new topic lets not derail this one

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

No, the definition I go by came up early on in the thread.  But it was interesting hearing your perspective!

I don't know what your definition is. Are you using that definition as your main reference or guideline to compare with others explanations?
If that is my definition, then, I would stick with it and use it as baseline until I found something else to overturn it. We must keep a baseline to maintain balance in the mind to avoid confusion.
 

Edited November 26, 2022 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

On 5/29/2022 at 4:45 PM, Shadow_self said:

"If it is forming the elixir or embryo it is Nei-Dan, If it isn't, then it isn't"

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I don't know what your definition is. Are you using that definition as your main reference or guideline to compare with others explanations?
If that is my definition, then, I would stick with it and use it as baseline until I found something else to overturn it. We must keep a baseline to maintain balance in the mind to avoid confusion.
 

Sure.  I don't think a whole lot about what the definition is, to be honest (focused instead on the process as I've been taught), but I generally think about it in terms of the above quote.

[refugeindharma]

On 26/11/2022 at 3:24 AM, freeform said:

The internal arts build a lot of power - and it takes great strength and spiritual insight to wield power without it affecting your nature and feeding the darker aspects of self.

 

Ive seen countless ‘masters’ who got corrupted. One of my friends got corrupted in this way too. It’s extremely common in these arts!

 

We think we’re good people. But often, we’re only good people because we’ve never had this possibility. 

 

I was discussing this concept with a friend of mine who isn't into cultivation and I couldn't give him a straight answer as to how those on the path are meant to avoid falling into this trap.

 

What exactly is it that provides someone with the strength or fortitude to not fall for these tests and get 'corrupted'?

 

Clearly one should have developed their precepts to a high level, but what exactly does that entail, and the other hand ideally have a high degree of samadhi, but I have also heard of highly skilled meditators falling for such traps. The greater the light, the stronger the darkness.

 

So what gives?

 

Your master and peers can't always be holding your hand and looking out for you when these tests come. 

 

Severe and frequent self-analysis of one's behaviors, actions, and intentions? Continuous work in developing the four boundless qualities? I suppose the answer itself is highly individual, based on whichever poisons one has a proclivity towards

[freeform]

On 25/11/2022 at 8:30 PM, markern said:

 

How modern do you think it is?

 

I'm not a good person to ask! 'Relatively' modern haha. 

Basically I disagree that it's thousands of years old... I think it's more modern than the DDJ.

 

Of course it gets even more woolly once you introduce the question "What is Nei Dan"... because just like most arts it has gone through many evolutions (and devolutions) - at what point was it the 'most authentic'? 

 

It's not of particular interest to me really - but I would say that it's been developed after the Buddha... after the DDJ... Of course there are aspects of Neidan that are rooted in pre-history... but the most crucial aspects of the methods are not from that era  

[freeform]

On 26/11/2022 at 6:46 AM, Taoist Texts said:

the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. 

DDJ3

 

With a little jostling this sounds very much like a method of cultivation, doesn't it

 

Emptying minds and filling bellies...

[freeform]

On 25/11/2022 at 10:05 PM, Barnaby said:

Yeah, I guess my question really is: what is that power for?

 

On a more trivial level, it reminds me of how I lost interest in the martial arts. It started to feel like everyone was seeking mastery either as an antidote to fear and insecurity, or for the power that mastery would confer, or some combination of the two.

 

You know, I see these videos of qi emissions (real? fake?), and it's just like: what's the point?

 

Really good questions

 

Power is one of those sticky subjects - like sex and money

 

Much of the base drives of a human are based around the endeavour of building power.

 

But here's the thing... You can build power out of fear - as a self defence mechanism. Because as someone more powerful, you can hold a higher rank in your tribe, have access to more sexual partners, more calories, opportunities, respects and social standing etc... But all of this is an attempt to plug a basic underlying fear... that we're not enough... that we're finite... that we're gonna die... 

 

But you can also build power not as a way to plug fear - but as a tool for growth. 

 

Power is simply necessary for the methods to work. They require a lot of power - that's it

 

As a basic example - the more 'powerful' your qi, the denser it becomes... it becomes so dense that to your mind the movement of qi is as solid and real as your physical body.

 

If your mind is distracted, it can still become aware of your hand at a moments notice - because it's right there - physical, solid... so it should be the same with Qi or the dantien for example... if you have to take time to quieten your mind, slow your breath, do an hr of qigong and slowly tune your awareness into your subtle, ephemeral dantien - well then you haven't built enough power  

 

Later the actual 'wattage' of power is necessary for performing various conversions in your 'cauldron' - like a fusion reactor - huge amounts of power are necessary to change one substance into another.

 

I personally think that one of the main reason people don't get very far in the internal arts is because they never built enough power.

 

Quote

You know, I see these videos of qi emissions (real? fake?), and it's just like: what's the point?

 

Very good example.

 

Yes these Qi emissions CAN be real (though the vast majority are fake). This sort of qi emission becomes possible when you have built enough power (at a certain level). Yes it's tested for in my own school too - but only as a test for having developed enough dantien power in the early/intermediate stages - it is not developed beyond that like it is in other schools. We don't train the ability to issue qi to a high level - and this sort of method isn't even considered a good healing method... it just looks flashy and supernatural - which gets people excited.

 

The world of qi emission is a weird one.

 

I've come across some of the well known masters and their students in that area of the internal arts world. Let's just say I would (and did) steer well clear. There's some genuine skill there... but skill and cultivation are two different things for me. I don't want to talk bad about people that have worked hard to develop such a high level of skill - but it's 100% not my thing at all. 

 

Money, influence, trickery and dodgy arrangements are all intertwined in that world. Even the teachers that can genuinely fa qi will often fake things for convenience, money and clout.

 

If spiritual cultivation is the aim - this is one of the big pitfalls that I'm glad I avoided. 

 

Power motivated by fear will always corrupt.

[freeform]

9 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

 

I was discussing this concept with a friend of mine who isn't into cultivation and I couldn't give him a straight answer as to how those on the path are meant to avoid falling into this trap.

 

What exactly is it that provides someone with the strength or fortitude to not fall for these tests and get 'corrupted'?

 

Clearly one should have developed their precepts to a high level, but what exactly does that entail, and the other hand ideally have a high degree of samadhi, but I have also heard of highly skilled meditators falling for such traps. The greater the light, the stronger the darkness.

 

So what gives?

 

Your master and peers can't always be holding your hand and looking out for you when these tests come. 

 

Severe and frequent self-analysis of one's behaviors, actions, and intentions? Continuous work in developing the four boundless qualities? I suppose the answer itself is highly individual, based on whichever poisons one has a proclivity towards

 

Excellent question... Thanks for asking.

 

It's a big topic, right?

 

There are several major turning points in the path that can lead one astray.

 

Beyond a certain point it's not necessary to have teachers and precepts or any other external ways of checking your behaviour. But I'm not there yet

 

So what I do is as you say - self-analysis - a lot of it. Understanding inner motivations for behaviours and attitudes. Being quite ruthless in my self-assessment. But I wouldn't recommend this for most people in the beginning - it's not a pretty sight internally!

 

What I would suggest is developing an attitude of gratitude and doing benevolent actions... being of service... taking on responsibility for the betterment of something for someone else - all while maintaining selflessness (even if it feels a bit fake).

 

Do notice that part of you that strives for recognition or praise - but don't be too self critical. Don't beat yourself up if you find your motivations aren't as benevolent as you'd like... things will shift of their own accord. Just guard your words and actions - especially when they influence others. Always aim to be kind and generous (through strength - not weakness).

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

But all of this is an attempt to plug a basic underlying fear... that we're not enough... that we're finite... that we're gonna die...

 

Yep, fear of disappearance. The mind identifying with the incarnation.

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Power is simply necessary for the methods to work. They require a lot of power - that's it

 

I finally got around to watching that Guru Viking interview with Damo Mitchell. Is what you say here in line with his "hacking" take on alchemy? That the power is necessary to drive a process of transformation that is ultimately spiritual in nature?

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

So what I do is as you say - self-analysis - a lot of it. Understanding inner motivations for behaviours and attitudes. Being quite ruthless in my self-assessment.

 

I find being attentive to the crap thrown up by the mind to distract you during meditation quite helpful in this respect.  

 

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

that it's thousands of years old... I think it's more modern than the DDJ.

That is correct, 'thousands of years' is just a marketing ploy

10 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Of course it gets even more woolly once you introduce the question "What is Nei Dan".

ND is defined as the jing-qi-shen model. It started around 9th century and ended its evolution fully formed in 17th

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

With a little jostling this sounds very much like a method of cultivation, doesn't it

of course. it does because it is a cultivation just not an energetic one as the modern marketers pretend it is but a moral one. The ruling class of the bronze age state had to improve both ts own moral attitude and that of its populace. It was done in order to survive as an indepencent state in the unending wars of the era.

10 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Emptying minds .

In our times it is done by censorship. In ancient times....well the same

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_of_scholars

[Barnaby]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

That is correct, 'thousands of years' is just a marketing ploy

ND is defined as the jing-qi-shen model. It started around 9th century and ended its evolution fully formed in 17th

Interesting. What about the Baopuzi? Circa 317, no?

 

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Interesting. What about the Baopuzi? Circa 317, no?

 

yes around that time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baopuzi he does describe various inner techniques but not the JQS model

[freeform]

12 hours ago, Barnaby said:

I finally got around to watching that Guru Viking interview with Damo Mitchell. Is what you say here in line with his "hacking" take on alchemy? That the power is necessary to drive a process of transformation that is ultimately spiritual in nature?

Yes - the ‘hacking’ thing makes sense.

 

The process itself is not sacred or spiritual - it’s just a technology… Just as a statue of the medicine Buddha is just a statue  

 

But yes - the aim is most definitely spiritual.

 

 

[freeform]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. it does because it is a cultivation just not an energetic one as the modern marketers pretend it is but a moral one.

Yes agreed that it’s not an energetic method of cultivation… 

 

But to me, reading the DDJ as a manual for governing people is not correct. But I’m no expert  

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. it does because it is a cultivation just not an energetic one as the modern marketers pretend it is but a moral one

 

As if it were possible to separate the two in our lives...

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

15 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

On 11/27/2022 at 9:36 AM, freeform said:

that it's thousands of years old... I think it's more modern than the DDJ.

That is correct, 'thousands of years' is just a marketing ploy

Quote

 

Of course it gets even more woolly once you introduce the question "What is Nei Dan".

ND is defined as the jing-qi-shen model. It started around 9th century and ended its evolution fully formed in 17th

I'm sorry Taoist Texts, but both Wikipedia and I disagree with you.  Here is introductory paragraph of the article on the Neiyeh:

 

Quote

The c. 350 BCE Neiye 內業 or Inward Training is the oldest Chinese received text describing Daoist breath meditation techniques and qi circulation. After the Guanzi, a political and philosophical compendium, included the Neiye around the 2nd century BCE, it was seldom mentioned by Chinese scholars until the 20th century, when it was reevaluated as a "proto-Daoist" text that clearly influenced the Daode jing, Zhuangzi, and other classics. Neiye traditions also influenced Chinese thought and culture. For instance, it had the first references to cultivating the life forces jing "essence", qi "vital energy", and shen "spirit", which later became a fundamental concept in Daoist Neidan "internal alchemy", as well as the Three Treasures in traditional Chinese medicine. The c. 350 BCE Neiye 內業 or Inward Training is the oldest Chinese received text describing Daoist breath meditation techniques and qi circulation. After the Guanzi, a political and philosophical compendium, included the Neiye around the 2nd century BCE, it was seldom mentioned by Chinese scholars until the 20th century, when it was reevaluated as a "proto-Daoist" text that clearly influenced the Daode jing, Zhuangzi, and other classics. Neiye traditions also influenced Chinese thought and culture. For instance, it had the first references to cultivating the life forces jing "essence", qi "vital energy", and shen "spirit", which later became a fundamental concept in Daoist Neidan "internal alchemy", as well as the Three Treasures in traditional Chinese medicine.

 

 

It is actually a pretty good article, it is long and amounts to a good overview of the text.  Among other things the section Basic concepts has a good discussion of jing, qi, and shen.  There are interesting quotes like this one:

 

There is a numinous [mind] naturally residing within [有神自在身];
One moment it goes, the next it comes,
And no one is able to conceive of it.
If you lose it you are inevitably disordered;
If you attain it you are inevitably well ordered.
Diligently clean out its lodging place [敬除其舍]
And its vital essence will naturally arrive [精將自來].

 

Where both the characters for shen, 神, and jing, 精, appear, and believe it or not, qi can be found throughout the text.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, the fellow who wrote the material in this site:

Nei-yeh (Chinese Self-Cultivation Manual)

disagrees with you also.  I haven't read all of this site, but it seems to be a very good study guide for someone interested in the Neiyeh.

 

ZYD

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Where both the characters for shen, 神, and jing, 精, appear, and believe it or not, qi

It is my fault. When i was defining neidan as as the jing-qi-shen model i should have rendered it like this:  jing->qi->shen.  This would mean that they are alchemically transformed one into another in a certain sequence - and that is the most striking uniqueness of neidan. Thats why i define it thusly.

 

You are quite right that the  jing, qi, and shen as adjacent or overlapping entities are ubiquitous to chinese culture and cultivation but it is only in ND they are used in this way: jing->qi->shen. It is this model which emerged in the 9th century being absent before that. Interestingly, it also run its course and stopped being used in the 20th century giving way to the sole qi model in qigong, reiki and sundry new-age.

 

Talking of the ND definition the other less prominent but still unique features by which it can be defined are: the orbit; the xing-ming pair; the blending of buddhism with confucianism; the TCM roots.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Taoist Texts

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

17 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

On 11/28/2022 at 11:45 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Where both the characters for shen, 神, and jing, 精, appear, and believe it or not, qi

It is my fault. When i was defining neidan as as the jing-qi-shen model i should have rendered it like this:  jing->qi->shen.  This would mean that they are alchemically transformed one into another in a certain sequence - and that is the most striking uniqueness of neidan. Thats why i define it thusly.

 

You are quite right that the  jing, qi, and shen as adjacent or overlapping entities are ubiquitous to chinese culture and cultivation but it is only in ND they are used in this way: jing->qi->shen. It is this model which emerged in the 9th century being absent before that. Interestingly, it also run its course and stopped being used in the 20th century giving way to the sole qi model in qigong, reiki and sundry new-age.

 

Talking of the ND definition the other less prominent but still unique features by which it can be defined are: the orbit; the xing-ming pair; the blending of buddhism with confucianism; the TCM roots.

 

Regarding the orbit, this is from Wikipedia's article on the Guanzi, the larger text of which the Neiye is actually a very small part:

 

Quote

 

As is typical of an ancient Chinese text, the organization of the Guanzi has been altered over time, both the chronology and significance of which isn't all that clear. Covering a wide variety of subjects, ranging from detailed economic discussions to overviews of local soil topography, many chapters include Confucian values as a necessity for the state, expressing a blend of what may be considered Legalistic, Confucian, and Daoistic philosophy that has been termed "Huang-Lao". The first reference to the collection appears in the more Daostic Huainanzi, of the early Han dynasty,^[7] and Han bibliographies listed the text as Daoist.^[8] For example, the Neiye ("Inner Enterprise/Training") chapter has some of the oldest recorded descriptions of Daoist meditation techniques.

When you enlarge your mind and let go of it,

When you relax your [qi 氣] vital breath and expand it,
When your body is calm and unmoving:
And you can maintain the One and discard the myriad disturbances.
You will see profit and not be enticed by it,
You will see harm and not be frightened by it.
Relaxed and unwound, yet acutely sensitive,
In solitude you delight in your own person.
This is called "revolving the vital breath":

Your thoughts and deeds seem heavenly. (24, tr. Roth 1999:92)

It was classed as Legalist after the Sui dynasty (581-617).

 

 

This Roth's translation, but he is not alone, here is another translation:

From the Library of Chinese Classics:

Guanzi III, p. 1005, "That is regarded as manipulating the circulation of the vital energy"

 

As far as Blending with Confucianism goes, it could be more considered to be an influence of the development of Confucianism as is discussed in the Wikipedia article which I referenced previously.  Ff you had bothered to look at it under the Influences of the Neiye you would have found:

 

Mencius

 

Too which I will add this personal anecdote:

 

On 5/31/2018 at 7:26 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

One of the ironies related to the Neiye in my life is that while I did not really read it until 2005 (I bought Roth's translation in 2000, but it sat on my shelf for several years unread.), I had actually first heard of it around 1970 in the introduction to Arthur Waley's translation of the Dao De Jing, titled, The Way and its Power.  I liked this introduction and read it several times and looking back wish now that I had paid more attention to it, but I was mostly concentrating on what was said about the development of the Dao De Jing.  Also, having most of the common biases against Confucianism that Westerners, especially those of a "mystical" inclination entertain,  the importance of the Neiyi and Mencius' apparent use of it was long forgotten by the time, about thirty years later, that I actually did study Confucianism and realized that everything that is popularly believed about Confucianism is wrong.  Had I remembered what Waley says about Mencious and the Neiye, I would have been spared answering the question "Where did Mencius get all this mystical Stuff?!".  It is particularly ironic that one of the doctrines of Mencious, that stronly influenced my reevaluation of Confucianism was Mencius teaching that, "All the Ten Thousand things are there in me" (Tu Wei-ming, Humanity and Self-Cultivation, p. 24), a very clear statement of the Microcosm/Macrocosm doctrine, which can also be found on p. 33 of Waley's book, "'The ten thousand things' he says, meaning the entire cosmos, 'are there complete inside us'".  I had embraced the Microcosm/Macrocosm doctrine years before as I have noted many times.

 

On a more positive note, had I read the Neiye earlier I would not have done a lot of research into Warring States era philosophy and missed out on a lot of interesting research and study.

 

I have not covered on other issue which I believe is of great importance, but I will deal with that in another post and that is "And you can maintain the One.".

 

I do not believe that the Neiye as a work is any kind of replacement for Taoist Yoga, as can be seen by looking at the text at the Chinese Text Project site it is a short work, whose importance as source of Neigong practice of great antiquity outweighs its small size.

 

ZYD

 

 

[Netero]

To Donald and Taoist Texts, whom I both respect dearly. 
I've been enjoing your posts for quite a while. Years. While you've both got different paradigms; Don being a Confucian-Platonist to an inkling towards acting magically upon the world as an active agent, and Taoist Texts, confidently and most assuredly experiencing the macrocosmic powers internally, to the point of doubting the objective validity of magic itself...

 

As someone curious, could you perchance come to an agreement to the validity of Taoist Yoga? I know it's a shabby translation, but you're both going in different directions without necessarily disagreeing with one another. Rather than arguing, is there something you most certainly agree with?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I have no problems with the Taoist Yoga book, as I have noted elsewhere on Dao Bums, I started to read and study it back in late 1971 or early 1972.  It was a great influence on my early thinking on Daoist meditation and qigong.  At this time and for the past several years I view it as a practical guide to an older text the Principles of the Innate Disposition and the Lifespan (Xingming guizhi 性命圭旨) a text first published in 1615.  Daniel Burton-Rose wrote a paper on it which is very informative and includes a translation that can be downloaded from academia.edu with this link: Integrating Inner Alchemy into Late Ming Cultural History A Contextualization and Annotated Translation of Principles of the Innate Disposition and the Lifespan (Xingming guizhi 性命圭旨).  I found the discussion of its Confucian background extremely interesting, and you will recognize aspects of it that are used in the Taoist Yoga book in the translation that is given.  Happy Reading!

 

ZYD