What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

15 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

I have no problems with the Taoist Yoga book

 

I wrote the above quickly and as I thought I thought about it, I realized that while I have not problems with the book that is translated, I do have problems with Charles Luk's introduction which I believe caused some real misunderstanding and misdirection by spending so much time on time on the "microcosmic orbit".  The real key is right in the first paragraph of the text and without achieving that you're wasting your time and may injure yourself.

 

ZYD

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Ff you had bothered to look at it under the Influences of the Neiye you would have found:

 

Mencius

oh that wiki article is just a very shallow speculation. Its logic is 'Neye uses the same words as Zhuang-zi and Meng-zi hence Neye influenced them' . Hehe ZZ and MZ most like never even heard about it.

6 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

the Neiye ("Inner Enterprise/Training") chapter has some of the oldest recorded descriptions of Daoist meditation techniques.

When you enlarge your mind and let go of it,

When you relax your [qi 氣] vital breath and expand it,

This is called "revolving the vital breath":

Your thoughts and deeds seem heavenly. (24, tr. Roth 1999:92)

It was classed as Legalist after the Sui dynasty (581-617).

This one is funny. The chinese say it is legalist but the westerners know better and insist it is "Daoist". And qi is always "the vital breath" to them. They are like that kid with a hammer to whom everything is a nail. To those forever impressed by the great qigong craze of the 20th century every qi is qigong.

6 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

a short work, whose importance as source of Neigong

thats ironic . a forgotten and never quoted ancient work is a source of  a fake 'practice' made up 20 years ago for western consumption under a fake name

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neigong#In_popular_culture

ahahaha;) who even writes these wiki articles, sounds exact like any old typical taobum thread

Edited November 30, 2022 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Netero said:

come to an agreement to the validity of Taoist Yoga

of course! we agree its a great book. i translated the whole of it myself and recomend it to my students

[Zhongyongdaoist]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

17 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

the Neiye ("Inner Enterprise/Training") chapter has some of the oldest recorded descriptions of Daoist meditation techniques.

When you enlarge your mind and let go of it,

When you relax your [qi 氣] vital breath and expand it,

This is called "revolving the vital breath":

Your thoughts and deeds seem heavenly. (24, tr. Roth 1999:92)

It was classed as Legalist after the Sui dynasty (581-617).

This one is funny. The chinese say it is legalist but the westerners know better and insist it is "Daoist". And qi is always "the vital breath" to them. They are like that kid with a hammer to whom everything is a nail. To those forever impressed by the great qigong craze of the 20th century every qi is qigong.

 

This is a misquotation, which is a sign of either incompetence or an attempt to deceive.  Either accidentally or conveniently you left this out:

 

17 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

(the Guanzi) . . . is typical of an ancient Chinese text, the organization of the Guanzi has been altered over time, both the chronology and significance of which isn't all that clear. Covering a wide variety of subjects, ranging from detailed economic discussions to overviews of local soil topography, many chapters include Confucian values as a necessity for the state, expressing a blend of what may be considered Legalistic, Confucian, and Daoistic philosophy that has been termed "Huang-Lao". The first reference to the collection appears in the more Daostic Huainanzi, of the early Han dynasty,^[7] and Han bibliographies listed the text as Daoist.^[8] For example, the Neiye ("Inner Enterprise/Training") chapter has some of the oldest recorded descriptions of Daoist meditation techniques.

 

So it seems that it is the Chinese who were originally confused about whether it was Daoist or Legalist.  The interesting question is why was it relabeled as Legalist during the Tang , and further what effect would that change have on the text and its audience and interpretation afterwards?

 

Since you are quick enough to mock it, and have a laugh over it, it makes the notion that you were purposefully misquoting me, seem more likely, though I leave it to others to decide.

 

This is simply a grotesque oversimplification with too many matters to address:

 

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

(to Westerners) . . . qi is always "the vital breath" to them. They are like that kid with a hammer to whom everything is a nail. To those forever impressed by the great qigong craze of the 20th century every qi is qigong.

17 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

a short work, whose importance as source of Neigong

thats ironic . a forgotten and never quoted ancient work is a source of  a fake 'practice' made up 20 years ago for western consumption under a fake name

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neigong#In_popular_culture

ahahaha;) who even writes these wiki articles, sounds exact like any old typical taobum thread

 

It would be nice if it really was as simple and as easily dismissed as you would like to make it seem, but it isn't, and it would take up too much time now to unravel this and address each issue, and get some straight answers from you.

 

ZYD

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

get some straight answers from you.

 

Oh please dont say that. Ask me a straight question - get a straight answer. Works like a clock.

My main point was that NY was a forgotten work, it is never ever quoted by anyone hence it could not influence anything

 

Also,  i claim that the process in NY is different from neidan but it is irrelevant given the above.

 

Finally, i am sorry about my neigong joke, probably you did not mean 'neigong' the marketing ploy but used that term in a general sense.

[Netero]

Back to OP's discussion; what is Neidan? 

 

On 30.11.2022 at 12:56 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

The real key is right in the first paragraph of the text and without achieving that you're wasting your time and may injure yourself.

 

Don, both you and @Taoist Texts seems to agree on this point, regardless of disputes about historical influences. The Neiye, with it's techniques of "Silent Sitting"/Numinous Mind, does indeed seem to be a universal preliminary to Neidan. Whether this particular text has influenced so and so, it is clear that "The Foundation" comes from a notion of detachment present in both the Neiye and Taoist Yoga, separated by centuries as they may be, with nods here and there throughout the centuries. 

 

I speculate that this is a major difference between genuine Neidan and the more popular form of Qi Gong. Leaving me with this: why is it important to have a Numinous Mind before undertaking such practices? 

[MetaDao]

On 11/28/2022 at 4:09 AM, freeform said:

The process itself is not sacred or spiritual - it’s just a technology… Just as a statue of the medicine Buddha is just a statue  

I am confused by your definition of Neidan, as I am pretty sure it’s impossible to separate internal alchemy from spiritual growth and call it a ‘technology.’

 

For example, fusing the Refined Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi to form the elixir is alchemical and definitely spiritual.

 

Going from Earth immortal to spiritual immortal, that is still Neidan in my definition. Most definitely a spiritual process. Not to mention Spiritual Immortal to Heavenly Immortal 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

On 11/27/2022 at 12:36 PM, freeform said:

 

I'm not a good person to ask! 'Relatively' modern haha. 

Basically I disagree that it's thousands of years old... I think it's more modern than the DDJ.

 

Of course it gets even more woolly once you introduce the question "What is Nei Dan"... because just like most arts it has gone through many evolutions (and devolutions) - at what point was it the 'most authentic'? 

 

It's not of particular interest to me really - but I would say that it's been developed after the Buddha... after the DDJ... Of course there are aspects of Neidan that are rooted in pre-history... but the most crucial aspects of the methods are not from that era  

I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion, but I’m pretty sure this is wrong as well. 

First off, in my definition, moving from spiritual immortal to heavenly immortal is Neidan. This would place Neidan’s creation back before the beginning of the universe.

 

This universe was created by a heavenly immortal. That heavenly immortal was most likely a spiritual immortal before that. So, Neidan, in the spiritual sense, has been here for a long long time.

 

Now, if you’re discussing humanity, sure, the creation of the elixir could be more modern than thousands of years, however, even if all humans were born at the Yang Shen level, there is still alchemical work to be done to rise from Yang Shen to spiritual immortal and actualize Yang body.

 

In pre history, Neidan still existed. It may just not have been necessary to transmute yin Shen to Yang Shen in earlier Yugas.

 

Upon the creation of the universe, there is a spiritual big bang of sorts where Spiritual immortals come into existence. Neidan exists even here. The process of moving from spiritual immortal to heavenly immortal is still Neidan.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

 

Did you see Damo's FB post today?  

 

Edit: Relevance - you're clearly super smart and full of passion, but do you ever wonder where these ideas would fall on the Dunning-Kreuger chart?  🙏

 

P.S. All Love, I'm a dummy anyways so not comparing.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

21 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Did you see Damo's FB post today?  

 

Edit: Relevance - you're clearly super smart and full of passion, but do you ever wonder where these ideas would fall on the Dunning-Kreuger chart?  🙏

 

P.S. All Love, I'm a dummy anyways so not comparing.

I haven’t, but I’ll check it out. And, sure. You could make that point.

 

Would you rather I not say anything and let others inaccuracies stand just so I feel like my ability matches my understanding?

Edited December 2, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

10 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I haven’t, but I’ll check it out. And, sure. You could make that point.

 

Would you rather I not say anything and let others inaccuracies stand just so I feel like my ability matches my understanding?

Nah you've got a ton of knowledge that I enjoy reading but considering we've been doing Nei Dan for about the same period of time idk why you're presenting them as inaccuracies instead of things your teacher would disagree with 🤷.

 

It's not like me and you are chilling in the Yuan Shen here - pulling knowledge straight from its source (idk if it even comes from there haha but I imagine you've been taught enough theory to know that).  Somebody's teacher says one thing and somebody else's says another... If it's not part of our experience we're talking in hypotheticals, so how would we know our corrections are correct?

[Cobie]

Imo: 

Reality is hard to understand, hard to cope with. Some people find it more attractive to merely mindlessly regurgitate someone else’s words. That way no effort is required, and they can get their rocks off pontificating.  
 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Cobie

[MetaDao]

42 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Nah you've got a ton of knowledge that I enjoy reading but considering we've been doing Nei Dan for about the same period of time idk why you're presenting them as inaccuracies instead of things your teacher would disagree with 🤷.

 

It's not like me and you are chilling in the Yuan Shen here - pulling knowledge straight from its source (idk if it even comes from there haha but I imagine you've been taught enough theory to know that).  Somebody's teacher says one thing and somebody else's says another... If it's not part of our experience we're talking in hypotheticals, so how would we know our corrections are correct?

Yes, I see what you’re saying, however, somehow I can usually tell whether something is true or not fairly easily. And I only really post what I believe to be mostly true. 
 

As you can see, even many people considered ‘high level’ can have inaccuracies and fall onto the scale you mention.

 

We must have discernment to tell true from false for there is in fact an ultimate truth.

[MetaDao]

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Imo: 

Reality is hard to understand, hard to cope with. Some people find it more attractive to merely mindlessly regurgitate someone else’s words. That way no effort is required, and they can get their rocks off pontificating.  
 

 

Contrary to what you believe, that is not why I post on here, and I do not mindlessly regurgitate. Much of what I say is taken from a base understanding given to me, but it is also in my own words.

 

It is not because I like sounding like I know a lot. It’s because I believe it is helpful to people to explain things well. 

[ChiDragon]

Base on what I had read here, I would like to suggest that the title of the OP should be changed to: 

What is neidan/internal alchemy?
The word "Exactly" is really irrelevant here. It seems to me that no one knows exactly what the original meaning of naidan(內丹) is.

Edited December 2, 2022 by ChiDragon

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

Contrary to what you believe, that is not why I post on here, and I do not mindlessly regurgitate. Much of what I say is taken from a base understanding given to me, but it is also in my own words.

 

Are you saying that you have completely mastered neidan with your mysterious, unnamed master in the 24-30 months since you came here inquiring about qi machines? Of course you can see why people may be skeptical.

[MetaDao]

10 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Are you saying that you have completely mastered neidan with your mysterious, unnamed master in the 24-30 months since you came here inquiring about qi machines? Of course you can see why people may be skeptical.

Qi machines are real. But, no I have not mastered Neidan. Never claimed that.

 

There are mechanical devices that somehow generate post heaven yin qi. I bet you can imagine the uses for this in a bionic arm

Edited December 2, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

As you can see, even many people considered ‘high level’ can have inaccuracies and fall onto the scale you mention.

No doubt.  One man's teacher is another man's student, and so on.

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

Yes, I see what you’re saying, however, somehow I can usually tell whether something is true or not fairly easily. And I only really post what I believe to be mostly true. 

 

We must have discernment to tell true from false for there is in fact an ultimate truth.

Imma sound like a dick so please know I'm saying this tongue in cheek to a peer - without a direct line to the Ultimate Truth, how tf would you know how good your discernment is? 

[MetaDao]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

No doubt.  One man's teacher is another man's student, and so on.

Imma sound like a dick so please know I'm saying this tongue in cheek to a peer - without a direct line to the Ultimate Truth, how tf would you know how good your discernment is? 

With discernment

[Wilhelm]

14 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

With discernment

If you've got discernment that clean, what do you even need a teacher for?  

 

Learn the method, 'feel out' any inefficiencies, and you're a straight shot to the finish line.

 

Then when you get there, you can tell your teacher all the inefficiencies you discerned in his method.

 

No joke, that's a high level quality imo - being able to tell the true from the false.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

If you've got discernment that clean, what do you even need a teacher for?  

 

Learn the method, 'feel out' any inefficiencies, and you're a straight shot to the finish line.

 

Then when you get there, you can tell your teacher all the inefficiencies you discerned in his method.

 

No joke, that's a high level quality imo - being able to tell the true from the false.

That’s why it’s mostly method. That’s basically what I do lol

[Wilhelm]

28 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

That’s why it’s mostly method. That’s basically what I do lol

Love you bro 🙏

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wilhelm

[ChiDragon]

On 5/29/2022 at 2:06 PM, Iskote said:

Regarding your quote which you attribute to Wang Liping, "If it is forming the elixir or embryo it is Nei-Dan, If it isn't, then it isn't",  that raises the question for me of what exactly is meant by 'elixir' and 'embryo'. Do all neidan schools define those terms the same way?  I suspect that they don't. 

FYI Elixir is the result of 外丹, wei dan (external alchemy). However, everything fails in wei dan, therefore, the Taoists went from external to internal alchemy( 內丹neidan).

Wei dan, 外丹, takes place in a cauldron to produce an elixir in pill form. It was done externally, thus that is why it was called external alchemy. Neidan, (內丹) was done inside the dantian(abdomen). It was accomplish by qigong(breathing exercise) to produce an imaginary pill inside the dantian which is called Neidan(internal pill). It was done internally, thus that is why it was called internal alchemy.

Sorry to say, Taoists used some poisonous elements such as lead, arsenic and other harmful elements. It failed to have the effect of longevity but caused death.  Therefore, the Taoist had decided to do it inside the body and due away with the harmful external elements to prevent death for once and for all.

The Taoist came up with three treasures of internal elements and they are jing(精), chi(氣) and shen(神). These three elements suppose to interact with each other to produce a health body to accomplish longevity. Their explanation of the process is very obfuscated and vague. I know what they are trying to say. However, I can only comprehend 75% of it and cannot repeat it in my own words. This is where stand.

Thanks!

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Love you bro 🙏

 

Yes, but what is your motivation for pointing such a thing out? Is it jealousy, envy, or intention to help? Only you can answer that.

 

I know where I am at on that scale. It is the confidence and self-belief in knowing that I can reach the end of the path while also knowing I lack ability in this specific lifetime.

 

The scale is useful, sure. But only you can tell where you’re at. Not someone who judges you through a screen

 

I can discern my own placement, but thank you for trying to help 🙏

 

It is a real quality, you are correct. I am not joking. I can honestly tell when a spiritual truth is presented in front of me. It is a deep inner knowing that arises. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

29 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI Elixir is the result of 外丹, wei dan (external alchemy). However, everything fails in wei dan, therefore, the Taoists went from external to internal alchemy( 內丹neidan).

Wei dan, 外丹, takes place in a cauldron to produce an elixir in pill form. It was done externally, thus that is why it was called external alchemy. Neidan, (內丹) was done inside the dantian(abdomen). It was accomplish by qigong(breathing exercise) to produce an imaginary pill inside the dantian which is called Neidan(internal pill). It was done internally, thus that is why it was called internal alchemy.

Sorry to say, Taoists used some poisonous elements such as lead, arsenic and other harmful elements. It failed to have the effect of longevity but caused death.  Therefore, the Taoist had decided to do it inside the body and due away with the harmful external elements to prevent death for once and for all.

The Taoist came up with three treasures of internal elements and they are jing(精), chi(氣) and shen(神). These three elements suppose to interact with each other to produce a health body to accomplish longevity. Their explanation of the process is very obfuscated and vague. I know what they are trying to say. However, I can only comprehend 75% of it and cannot repeat it in my own words. This is where stand.

Thanks!

Yes, I am confused on what’s funny about my post, as devices do in fact exist that ‘generate’ post-heaven Yin Qi. If you found one and could feel it, you would know it exists.

 

Also, there are many inaccuracies in this post, but those with discernment can see them so I won’t point them out