What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Really Taoist Texts?  This is a new low:

 

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

(of course in neidan the detached mind has a secret energetic meaning but thats the next step in understanding why it is important)

 

(a note on Numinous Mind in Neiye: this expression comes from the incorrect translation quoted above.

On 11/28/2022 at 11:45 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

There is a numinous [mind] naturally residing within [有神自在身]; (tr. Roth 1999: 70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye#Basic_concepts

 

But there is no such expression in the original which just says 神 'shen' (spirit) which is something quite different.)

 

In a section titled "Technical Terminology", Roth takes a little over a page to explain the reason why he translates:shen as numen:

 

Quote

The shen, often translated as "spirit/spiritual" (noun/stative verb) and, following Willard Peterson, previously translated as "numen/numinous" (meaning a divinity or spirit), is, for the Inward Training authors, used to identify a foundational layer of mystical awareness that lies within human beings.  (Roth, Original Tao, p. 43, emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Roth's explanation continues on to page 44.  I can post the rest of this if anyone cares to see it, but a simple bit of investigation on your part, such as checking out the Wikipedia article on Numen, where you could have read, 'Cicero writes of a "divine mind" (divina mens), a god "whose numen everything obeys,"' right in the first paragraph and you might spared yourself some embarrassment.  It's gaffs like this that make me question your competence.  Comparing the Numen article to the Shen article reveals a lot of conceptual similarity which to my mind strongly reinforces the aptness of Roth's translation, which had already been adequately explained in his own discussion.  I have other things to do and was taking a little break from this discussion, I will probably not post in it, or reply to posts, until sometime next week.

 

ZYD

[MetaDao]

22 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Have you read the Chinese version of Neidan? Without the special technique of breathing, Neidan cannot be accomplished. However, without the special breathing technique, breath will not and cannot change automatically when certain stages are reached.

That’s not true lol

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I agree Shen(神) can be translated in an ordinary way . However, esoterically, an ordinary person cannot translate those terms the same way as a Chinese Taoist would.

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

That’s not true lol

 Please show justification.

[MetaDao]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 Please show justification.

The justification is that at a certain stage breathing stops entirely. This requires no breathing method to achieve.

 

I don’t know where you are getting your neidan knowledge but it’s clear you don’t have a teacher. Why are you people posting here nonstop, quoting translations as if you know things? Just let yourself be guided by those who actually understand what they are talking about.

 

If you don’t have an authentic Neidan teacher, you cannot start teaching on here. I am telling you that yes, there are breathing methods in certain lineages but they are not required in the slightest to reach the elixir. The elixir can be reached without any guided intention of the breath. Certain traditions use guided intention of the breath to stabilize breathing qualities. That’s a different method for similar results. When you use blanket statements like Neidan requires the use of guided breathing, you are contradicting basic facts and becoming deluded.
 

Just because you can read Chinese texts about Neidan or Daoism does not mean you know anything about the practice. You must forget all of what you think you know and just find a teacher with the right methods. It’s that simple. Many of those texts have inaccuracies. I can’t explain it, other than it must be the fate of some of you to just parrot texts on here without ever striving for the actual methods

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[ChiDragon]

25 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

The justification is that at a certain stage breathing stops entirely. This requires no breathing method to achieve.

 

I don’t know where you are getting your neidan knowledge but it’s clear you don’t have a teacher. Why are you people posting here nonstop, quoting translations as if you know things? Just let yourself be guided by those who actually understand what they are talking about.

"內丹術是道教一種重要的修煉方法，現在一般視為道教氣功（道家多稱「煉氣術」）的一種。內丹術指以「人身是一小天地」的「天人合一」、「天人相應」思想為理論，進行性命的修煉，以人身為鼎爐，修煉「精、氣、神」等而達成強身健體、提高人體的生命功能、延長壽命、乃至成仙、長生不老之目的。"
Ref: https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/内丹术

"煉氣是道教徒日常修持的重要內容之一，就是以持久地鍛煉導引和呼吸(breathing)，融會天地之精氣於自身，祛除疾病，長生成仙。 "
Ref: https://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/煉氣

Edited December 3, 2022 by ChiDragon

[MetaDao]

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

"內丹術是道教一種重要的修煉方法，現在一般視為道教氣功（道家多稱「煉氣術」）的一種。內丹術指以「人身是一小天地」的「天人合一」、「天人相應」思想為理論，進行性命的修煉，以人身為鼎爐，修煉「精、氣、神」等而達成強身健體、提高人體的生命功能、延長壽命、乃至成仙、長生不老之目的。"
Ref: https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/内丹术

"煉氣是道教徒日常修持的重要內容之一，就是以持久地鍛煉導引和呼吸(breathing)，融會天地之精氣於自身，祛除疾病，長生成仙。 "
Ref: https://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/煉氣

Now, I see why you have errors in your understanding

 

Those articles and texts have tons of inaccuracies. Just find a teacher with the methods. Follow them. Then you will have the discernment to tell what is true vs what is false.
 

Not trying to be rude, but people who write things like this often do not even have methods and all they are really doing is spreading misinformation

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Where did you get this notion about neidan?

from the fount of all knowledge of course

Quote

 

 it was first recorded in the 559 vow taken by Tiantai Buddhist patriarch Nanyue Huisi praying to successfully make an elixir that would keep him alive until the coming of Maitreya 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidan#Terminology

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Really Taoist Texts?  This is a new low:. you might spared yourself some embarrassment.  It's gaffs like this that make me question your competence.

1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Roth takes a little over a page to explain the reason why he translates:shen as numen:

I totally trust you that he does

then he turns around and says it is mind in brackets. all i am saying is that mind is not spirit 神 . thats all.

 

Quote

 

There is a numinous [mind] naturally residing within [有神自在身]; (tr. Roth 1999: 70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye#Basic_concepts

 

 

[mrpasserby]

Sorry I was off topic .

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by mrpasserby
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