Cantonese is a Useful Tool for Chinese Buddhist Sutra Study

[alphone]

From :

https://universalalphaomega.blogspot.com/2022/06/cantonese-is-useful-tool-for-chinese.html

Most Chinese Buddhist Sutras, especially the Mahayana and Vajrayana Sutras, were translated into Chinese during Tang (唐) and Song (宋) Dynasty. The Chinese pronunciation in these two dynasties are very different from the modern official Chinese pronunciation ( a.k.a. Mandarin ), but similar to Cantonese pronunciation.

 

For example, Sanskrit ‘Manjusri’ is transliterated to Chinese ‘文殊師利’, which pronounces ‘Wen-Shoo-Shi-Li ‘ in Mandarin, and pronounces ‘Man-Siu-See-Ley’ in Cantonese.

 

We can do a syllable-to-syllable comparison here :

 

Sanskrit	Chinese Character	Cantonese	Mandarin
Man	文	Man	Wen
Ju	殊	Siu	Shoo
S	師	See	Shi
Ri	利	Ley	Li

 

From the above comparison, we can see that the Cantonese pronunciation is closer to the Sanskrit pronunciation than Mandarin. Especially the starting syllable, ‘Man’ in Sanskrit was transliterated to the Chinese character ‘文’, which pronounces ‘Man’ in Cantonese ( same consonant & vowel as the Sanskrit ), and pronounces ‘Wen’ in Mandarin ( both the consonant & vowel are very different from the Sanskrit ). So if you know only the Mandarin pronunciation, you would be confused why the Sanskrit ‘Manjusri’ is transliterated that way.

 

Another example, Sanskrit ‘Namo’ is transliterated into Chinese as ‘南無’, which pronounces ‘Nam-Mo’ in Cantonese, and ‘Nan-Woo’ in Mandarin. Here is a syllable-to-syllable comparison :

 

Sanskrit	Chinese Character	Cantonese	Mandarin
Nam	南	Nam	Nan
mo	無	Mo	Woo

 

Apparently the Cantonese pronunciation of ‘南無’ is very similar, almost identical to the original Sanskrit pronunciation, while the Mandarin pronunciation is very different, especially the second syllable.

 

More examples : 

 

Sanskrit ‘Kasaya’ is transliterated to ‘袈裟’, which pronounces ‘Ka-Sa’ in Cantonese, and ‘Jia-Sha’ in Mandarin. The first syllable in the Mandarin pronunciation is very different from the Sanskrit pronunciation.

 

Sanskrit ‘Kundali’ is transliterated to ‘軍荼利’, which pronounces ‘Kun-Toe-Ley’ in Cantonese, and ‘Jiun-Too-Li’ in Mandarin.

 

Sanskrit ‘Mahesvara’ is transliterated to ‘摩醯首羅’, which pronounces ‘Mo-Hey-Sau-Lo’ in Cantonese, and ‘Muo-See-Shou-Luo’ in Mandarin. The second syllable - ‘he’ in Sanskrit, is transliterated to the Chinese character ‘醯’, which pronounces ‘Hey’ in Cantonese, and ‘See’ in Mandarin.

 

Sanskrit ‘Bhagavan’ is transliterated to ‘薄伽梵’, which pronounces ‘Bok-Ga-Fan’ in Cantonese, and ‘Buo-Jia-Fan’ in Mandarin. The second syllable in the Mandarin pronunciation is very different from the original Sanskrit pronunciation.

 

There are still a lot more examples like these.

 

Aside from individual Sanskrit words or names, let’s also look at the transliterations of Buddhist Mantra / Dharani :

 

“Namo skritva imam” - This is a phrase extracted from the Sanskrit version of Great Compassion Dharani. It is transliterated into Chinese as ‘南無悉吉利埵伊蒙’. Here is a syllable-to-syllable comparison :

 

Sanskrit	Chinese Character	Cantonese	Mandarin
Nam	南	Nam	Nan
mo	無	Mo	Woo
S	悉	Sik	See
K	吉	Kʌd	Jee
Ri	利	Ley	Lee
Tva	埵	Do	Duo
I	伊	Yee	Yee
Mam	蒙	Mong	Meng

 

From the above comparison, we can see that (approximately) each Cantonese syllable shares a same consonant with its corresponding Sanskrit syllable, so if we recite the phrase in Cantonese quickly, the resulting sound would be similar to the original Sanskrit sound.

 

On the other hand, the Mandarin syllables do not always agree with their Sanskrit counterparts on the consonants they use, so if we recite the phrase in Mandarin quickly, the resulting sound would be very different from the original Sanskrit sound.

 

Another example, “Namo Bhagavate Bhaisajya guru” - This is a fragment extracted from Medicine Buddha Dharani. It is transliterated to ‘南謨薄伽伐帝鞞殺社窶嚕’. Here is a syllable-to-syllable comparison :

 

Sanskrit	Chinese Character	Cantonese	Mandarin
Nam	南	Nam	Nan
mo	謨	Mo	Mo
Bha	薄	Bok	Buo
Ga	伽	Ga	Jia
Va *	伐	Fad	Fa
Te	帝	Tai	Dee
Bhai *	鞞	Bei	Bing / Pi
Sa	殺	Sʌd	Sha
Jya	社	Se	She
Gu	窶	Geoi	Ju
Ru	嚕	Lou	Lu

 

(* The ‘Va’ in Sanskrit can be pronounced like ‘Fa’ or ‘Ba’. )

 

(* The ‘Bhai’ in the Sanskrit Dharani can be written & pronounced as ‘Bhei’. )

 

In the above comparison table, almost every Cantonese syllable agrees with its Sanskrit counterpart on the consonant they use, but for the Mandarin syllables, this is not the case.

 

So generally speaking, when you encounter a transliteration in a Chinese Buddhist sutra, whether it is a term, a name, or a fragment from a Dharani / Mantra, if you read it in Cantonese rather than in Mandarin, the resulting sound would be more accurate.

Edited June 3, 2022 by alphone

[awaken]

因為中國歷史上發生過大規模的貴族南遷

原本住在北方政治核心的貴族，因為逃避戰亂，所以舉家大規模往南遷移

而北方則被胡人所佔領

從語言就可以看得出來

 

Because of the large-scale southward migration of nobles in Chinese history

The nobles who originally lived in the political core of the north moved their families to the south on a large scale because they escaped the war.

The north was occupied by the Hu people

It can be seen from the language

[alphone]

12 minutes ago, awaken said:

因為中國歷史上發生過大規模的貴族南遷

原本住在北方政治核心的貴族，因為逃避戰亂，所以舉家大規模往南遷移

而北方則被胡人所佔領

從語言就可以看得出來

 

Because of the large-scale southward migration of nobles in Chinese history

The nobles who originally lived in the political core of the north moved their families to the south on a large scale because they escaped the war.

The north was occupied by the Hu people

It can be seen from the language

Exactly. The core of ancient Chinese culture, including the ancient religions, language pronunciations, etc., migrated to the south along with the nobles. This is why southern Chinese languages, which are called ‘dialects’ and suppressed by the mainland government, are closer to the ancient Chinese pronunciation.

[awaken]

不只是佛經，還有唐宋的詩詞也有同樣的情況

用南方的方言讀起來比較押韻

 

Not only Buddhist scriptures, but also Tang and Song poems have the same situation

Rhymes in southern dialect is better than northern mandarin

 

像台語的聲調有八音，比北方普通話的四音還多

說話很像唱歌

 

Like Taiwanese, there are eight tones, more than four tones in northern Mandarin.

talking like singing

 

 

 

 

這首歌採用台語的發音

This song is pronounced in Taiwanese

Edited June 3, 2022 by awaken

[alphone]

19 hours ago, awaken said:

不只是佛經，還有唐宋的詩詞也有同樣的情況

用南方的方言讀起來比較押韻

 

Not only Buddhist scriptures, but also Tang and Song poems have the same situation

Rhymes in southern dialect is better than northern mandarin

Some people are interested in ancient Chinese culture ( e.g. ancient Chinese religions, poems, etc. ) so they want to learn Chinese, but the official narrative only tells them to learn Mandarin, and most Chinese teaching institutions teach only Mandarin. They prefer not to tell the learners that southern Chinese languages ( so-called ‘dialects’ ) are closer to ancient Chinese and can help them better understand ancient Chinese culture. For example, one would never understand the phonological beauty of ancient Chinese literature if he knew only Mandarin.

[awaken]

說得沒錯，但是方言太多種了

 

甚至一個村莊跟一個村莊，才相差50公里，方言就已經不一樣了

 

以台語來說，台語的來源是來自福建廈門，雖然發音類似，但是經過百年的相隔，台語已經和廈門方言有著很大的不同了

 

所以對一個西方人來說，要學會所有的方言幾乎是不可能的事情

 

You're right, but there are too many dialects

Even a village is only 50 kilometers apart from a village, and the dialect is already different.

In terms of Taiwanese, the origin of Taiwanese is from Xiamen, Fujian. Although the pronunciation is similar, after a hundred years of separation, Taiwanese has become very different from the Xiamen dialect.

So it is almost impossible for a westerner to learn all the dialects

[alphone]

It is impossible to learn all the Chinese dialects, but at least a person can choose to study one or two southern Chinese languages to help him better understand ancient Chinese culture. 

 

The mainland government enforces Mandarin on everyone and punishes children who speak their mother languages. The Taiwan government also did the same in the past. Both the mainland government and the previous Taiwan government prefer one language & one mindset in a whole nation, in order to achieve this goal, they don’t care how much damage they cause to Chinese cultural treasures.

[awaken]

19 hours ago, alphone said:

It is impossible to learn all the Chinese dialects, but at least a person can choose to study one or two southern Chinese languages to help him better understand ancient Chinese culture. 

 

The mainland government enforces Mandarin on everyone and punishes children who speak their mother languages. The Taiwan government also did the same in the past. Both the mainland government and the previous Taiwan government prefer one language & one mindset in a whole nation, in order to achieve this goal, they don’t care how much damage they cause to Chinese cultural treasures.

 

我很少討論政治議題

因為各有各的立場，講不清楚

但是你要知道喔，幾乎全中國人都在學英語

而且學得很辛苦

請問英語國家的人有全部都在學中文嗎？

所以中國孩子的負擔是很重的，體諒一下吧

 

I rarely discuss political issues

Because each has its own position, it is difficult to communicate in political issues

But you have to know, almost all Chinese are learning English

And study hard

Do all people in English-speaking countries learn Chinese?

So the burden on Chinese children is very heavy, please understand

 

中國是多種族國家

雖然對西方人來說，看起來長得都是黃種人

但是事實上並非如此

在遺傳基因研究上，已經證明中國就是多種族國家的混合

所以在方言的數量是非常可怕的多

當然方言的失傳絕對是一個很嚴重的問題

但是在官方語言建立全國人民有一個可以互相溝通的語言也是非常重要

至於處罰的問題，中國人的法家思想有時候是很變態的

清朝還在砍頭，割肉

走到這裡已經很不容易了

 

China is a multi-ethnic country

Although to Westerners, they all look like yellow people

But in fact it is not

In genetic research, it has been proved that China is a mixture of multi-ethnic countries

So the number of dialects is horribly many

Of course, the loss of dialects is definitely a very serious problem.

But it is also very important to establish a language in which the people of the whole country can communicate with each other in the official language

As for the issue of punishment, Chinese legalism is sometimes very perverted

The Qing Dynasty is still beheading, cutting meat

It's hard to get here

Edited June 5, 2022 by awaken

[alphone]

If the authorities just want everyone to have a common communication tool, they don’t need to suppress all the non-Mandarin Chinese languages, right ? A person can learn and use multiple languages after all. So why do they punish children who speak their non-Mandarin mother languages in school ?

 

What the authorities truly want is one language only, one mindset only, and one ideology only, for the entire country. They believe this can help stabilize and strengthen the regime.

 

UNESCO Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity (2001) :

Cultural rights are an integral part of human rights, which are universal, indivisible and interdependent. The flourishing of creative diversity requires the full implementation of cultural rights as defined in Article 27 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in Articles 13 and 15 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. All persons have therefore the right to express themselves and to create and disseminate their work in the language of their choice, and particularly in their mother tongue; all persons are entitled to quality education and training that fully respect their cultural identity; and all persons have the right to participate in the cultural life of their choice and conduct their own cultural practices, subject to respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms.

 

Besides, the real study burden is never English, but the mandatory study of political doctrines. Only one political ideology is allowed in the country, and every student, whether he is in a primary school, middle school, high school, college, or university, has to recite the doctrines of the political ideology over and over again. There is no room for personal views or creative idea here, you must answer questions strictly in accordance with the political textbooks, otherwise you won’t pass the exams. How much time and efforts are wasted for this ?

Edited June 5, 2022 by alphone

[awaken]

你這個想法已經是牽涉到政治了，無解

 

就我的想法，中國政府有很強烈的分裂恐懼感，所以基於這個恐懼感，會做出許多比歐洲國家更極端的作法

 

我認為隨著經濟的發展，高權威的控制會越來越困難

 

給人民的自由會越來越多

 

總之，需要時間

 

 

Your idea is already involved in politics, no solution

As far as I am concerned, the Chinese government has a strong sense of splitting fear, so based on this sense of fear, it will make many more extreme actions than European countries.

I think as the economy develops, high authority control will become more and more difficult

More and more freedom for the people

Anyway, it takes time

 

你是歐洲人吧？

Are you European?

Edited June 6, 2022 by awaken

[searcher7977]

Sorry for bumping this slightly old thread, but I'm curious since this would render mantras more (or less) accurate depending on the pronunciation. It would also mean japanese zen is more phonetically accurate than the current chan, and consequently may contain less translation errors. 

 

Does anyone know how would this affect nianfo/nembutsu practice? Is Amituofo still the "correct" pronunciation, or is the japanese nembutsu a more accurate transliteration?

Personally, I'd like to learn another language so I can read the texts with greater understanding, but I do not know which language to select between Pali, chinese, japanese, thai, sanskrit, etc. 

[alphone]

Comparative Study on Chinese character pronunciations in Korean, Japanese, Cantonese, and Mandarin

From :

https://universalalphaomega.blogspot.com/2022/11/comparative-study-on-chinese-character.html
 

I. The Checked Tone feature of ancient Chinese pronunciation

 

Chinese character pronunciations in Korean, Japanese, and Cantonese retain some important features of ancient Chinese that are lost in Mandarin. One of these features is the Checked Tone (入聲).

 

For example, the pronunciations of Chinese character ‘目’ in different languages are :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
目	mok	mok	moku	mu

 

‘目’ is pronounced ‘mok’ in both Cantonese and Korean. The ending ‘k’ in ‘mok’ is called a Checked Tone  or an Entering Tone (入聲), which is an important feature of ancient Chinese.

 

The Japanese pronunciation of ‘目’ is ‘moku’. The second syllable ‘ku’ is a simulation of the Checked Tone ‘k’.

 

Why ‘k’ becomes ‘ku’ in Japanese ? Because Japanese uses Kana(仮名)s to simulate foreign language pronunciations. A Kana is either a vowel or a consonant+vowel combination. ( The only one exception is ‘ん’ / ‘ン’ pronounced ‘n’. ) There is no Kana for a single consonant ‘k’, so the only solution is to choose a Kana of [ ‘k’ + vowel ] pronunciation to simulate the consonant-only ‘k’. In this case, Kana ‘く’ / ‘ク’, pronounced ‘ku’, is chosen.

 

If we say ‘moku’ in Japanese quickly, the vowel ‘u’ can be pronounced lightly or omitted, so it will sound like ‘mok’, same as the Cantonese and Korean pronunciation.

 

The Mandarin pronunciation of ‘目’ is ‘mu’. It also starts with the consonant ‘m’, but the following vowel changes to ‘u’, and the Checked Tone ‘k’ is lost.

 

Both Japan and Korea learnt ancient Chinese pronunciations from ancient China. The pronunciations of ‘目’ in Cantonese, Korean and Japanese all have the Checked Tone ‘k’, this is a proof that the ancient Chinese pronunciation of ‘目’ has a Checked Tone ‘k’, which is lost in Mandarin.

 

( Some dictionaries indicate that ‘目’ is pronounced ‘mog’ in Korean. Actually the ending Checked Tone can be written as ‘k’ or ‘g’, it is just a glottal stop that does not utter an actual sound. )

 

 

Another example, Chinese character ‘白’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
白	baak	baek	byaku	bai

 

We can see that all the pronunciations have a common starting consonant ‘b’, followed by similar sounds ‘aa’, ‘ae’, ‘ya’, and ‘ai’, and then the Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciations all end with Checked Tones, which are ‘k’ in Cantonese and Korean, and ‘ku’ in Japanese. The Mandarin pronunciation is the only one that does not have a Checked Tone.

 

( The ending Checked Tone ‘k’ can also be written as ‘g’. )

 

 

Another example, Chinese character ‘國’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
國	gwok	guk	goku	guo

 

All the pronunciations of ‘國’ have a common starting consonant ‘g’, followed by various sounds ‘wo’, ‘u’, ‘o’, and ‘uo’, and then the Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciations all end with Checked Tones, which are ‘k’ in Cantonese and Korean, and ‘ku’ in Japanese. The Mandarin pronunciation is the only one that does not have a Checked Tone.

 

(  ‘國’ in Japanese is pronounced ‘goku’ when it is in a term constructed by two or more Chinese characters. e.g. ‘中國’, ‘外國’, ‘全國’, etc. )

 

( The ending Checked Tone ‘k’ can also be written as ‘g’. )

 

 

More examples :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin	Checked Tone
僕	bok	bok	boku	pu	k
肅	suk	suk	suku	su	k
擊	gik	gyeok	geki	ji	k
樸	pok	pak	boku	pu	k
宿	suk	suk	shuku	su	k
曲	kok	kok	kyoku	qu	k
角	gok	gak	kaku	jiao	k
易	yik	yeok	eki	yi	k
六	lok	lyuk	loku	liu	k
甲	gaap	gaap	ko	jia	p
合	haap	haap	go	he	p
及	kaap	keup	kyu	ji	p

 

 

II. The Changed Starting Consonants

 

Another noteworthy change from ancient Chinese pronunciation to Mandarin is that, in the pronunciations of many Chinese characters, the starting consonants are significantly changed.

 

For example, Chinese character ‘萬’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
萬	maan	maan	maan	wan

‘萬’ is pronounced ‘maan’ in Cantonese, Korean and Japanese, but ‘wan’ in Mandarin. The starting consonant changes from ‘m’ to ‘w’ in the Mandarin pronunciation.

 

 

Another example, Chinese character ‘文’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
文	man	mun	mon	wen

 

The Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciations of ‘文’ have a common starting consonant ‘m’, which becomes ‘w’ in the Mandarin pronunciation.

 

 

Another example, Chinese character ‘武’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
武	mou	mu	mu	wu

 

The Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciations of ‘武’ have a common starting consonant ‘m’, which becomes ‘w’ in the Mandarin pronunciation.

 

 

More examples :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
喬	kyu	kyu	kyo	qiao
強	koeng	kang	kyo	qiang
未	mei	mi	mi	wei
奇	kei	ki	ki	qi
技	gei	gi	gi	ji
伽	gaa	ga	ga	qie
無	mou	mu	mu	wu
聞	man	mun	mon	wen
舞	mou	mu	mu	wu
船	syun	seon	sen	chuan
舶	pak	pak	paku (in ‘船舶’)	bo
企	kei	ki	ki	qi

 

 

III. Significant Difference between Mandarin and Ancient Chinese Pronunciation

 

There are a lot more Chinese characters that sound similar in Cantonese, Korean and Japanese, but significantly different in Mandarin.

In some cases, Mandarin pronunciations are very different from the ancient pronunciations not only because of changed consonants or vowels, but also because of other factors.

 

For example, Chinese character ‘而’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
而	yi	i	ni	er

 

The Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciations of ‘而’ have a common vowel ‘i’, which is changed to ‘e’ in the Mandarin pronunciation. Furthermore, in the Mandarin pronunciation an ending ‘r’ is added, making the sound even more different from the ancient Chinese pronunciations.

 

 

Another example, Chinese character ‘禪’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
禪	sim	seon	sen	chan

 

The pronunciations of ‘禪’ in Cantonese, Korean and Japanese have a common starting consonant ‘s’, which becomes ‘ch’ in the Mandarin pronunciation. The Mandarin pronunciation is significantly different because the starting consonant is changed to a retroflex consonant.

 

( A well-known pronunciation of ‘禪’ in Japanese is ‘zen’, which is a Go-On (吳音). The pronunciation ‘sen’, actually sounds a little bit like ‘sem’, is a Kan-On (漢音). )

 

Another example, Chinese character ‘覺’ :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
覺	gok	gak	kaku	jue

 

Firstly, the Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciation start with similarly sounding consonants ‘g’, ‘k’, while the Mandarin pronunciation starts with a significantly different consonant ‘j’.

 

( Actually the starting consonant in the Cantonese and Korean pronunciation can also be written as ‘k’, and the starting consonant in the Japanese pronunciation sometimes sounds like ‘g’. )

 

Secondly, the Checked Tone ‘k’ is retained in the Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciation, but lost in the Mandarin pronunciation.

 

( The Checked Tone ‘k’ can also be written as ‘g’. )

 

Because of these two factors, the Mandarin pronunciation is significantly different from the Cantonese, Korean and Japanese pronunciation.

 

 

More examples :

 

Chinese character	Cantonese	Korean	Japanese	Mandarin
解	gai	gae	kai	jie
簡	gaan	gaan	kaan	jian
家	gaa	gaa	ka	jia
江	gong	gang	ko	jiang
弱	yoek	yak	nyaku	ruo
屋	ok / ngok	ok	oku	wu
堅	gin	gyeon	ken	jian
見	gin	gyeon	ken	jian
泊	paak	paak	baku	bo
講	gong	gang	ko	jiang
二	yi	i	ni	er
脚	goek	gak	kyaku	jiao

Edited November 23, 2022 by alphone

[alphone]

References :

https://cjkv-dict.com

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Main_Page
https://www.kanjipedia.jp

https://www.romajidesu.com/kanji/

https://hanja.dict.naver.com/#/main

https://koreanhanja.app
 

Edited November 11, 2022 by alphone

[exorcist_1699]

Although my mother tongue is Cantonese, I do not think that it is relevant to the Chinese Buddhist sutras study  . In fact, most of the Chinese Sutras (Buddha's words  or  writings  written by those late coming Buddhist Masters / near- gods   that translated into Chinese) are in the form of Classical Chinese , so knowing the classical Chinese is critical ,especially when we think of  many original Sanskrit texts are lost . Anyone who tries  skipping Classical Chinese and thinks  that he can  one day understand  what Buddhism ,  not just the Chinese Buddhism ,  its profound contents mean,  is a dream that hardly will come true.

Edited March 8, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Anyone who tries  skipping Classical Chinese and thinks  that he can  one day understand  what Buddhism ,  not just the Chinese Buddhism ,  its profound contents mean,  is a dream that hardly will come true.

very good. excellent. thats why the western Buddhists come up with these peculiar ideas. nice people they are but confused something fierce.

[exorcist_1699]

20 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

very good. excellent. thats why the western Buddhists come up with these peculiar ideas. nice people they are but confused something fierce.

 

Most of the best writings and translations of Buddhism were finished before the Song Dynasty , the period from which that migration of the northern people to the southern provinces started to  happen , so related dialect issue is irrelevant .  Monks who come from Ming ( for example , the Four Great Monks ) or Song dynasty , no matter how brilliant their writings or preaching seemingly look , are just some kind of further attempts  ,  yet  cumbersome or  trivial elaboration of their forerunners' .

Edited March 9, 2023 by exorcist_1699