The reason why a person who only has qi in his lower abdomen can't understand the WuZenPian

[C T]

There's a marked difference between elaborate teachings live and via online platforms. When live, the person is able to access filters quite easily. So if I'm listening to a lecture, my capacity to discernibly pick up things can fluctuate between "Yes thats useful, I need to pay attention" to moments where the mind can automatically relax and even tune off where certain teachings are not yet useful, or perhaps redundant. Online, however, it requires enormous amounts of energy to sift thru stuff, so a habit of being as succinct as one can, and orderly, is helpful, and quite vital. Energy, after all, is a precious resource.

 

In some regard, being succinct and conservative in presentation is also a good reflection on the presenter itself. More so for those who desire and demand that others must regard them with respectful reverence simply because they've a head full of parroted terminologies and old notes from dead sources. 

 

I don't see this poster (awaken) is that aware of this fact. 

[Cobie]

I highly appreciate the posts of Awaken. @awaken thank you very much for your posts. 
 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

if it was really sad you would discover the ignore button. but you did not. so not sad at all.

 

Somewhat said = Not something that bothers me greatly

Really sad = Something that bothers me greatly

 

Fortunately...unlike your suggestion (which may perhaps be your own strategy) I do not feel the need to censor information from my life. I am suggesting it be properly categorized

 

I was pointing out the fact that the thread does not serve the purpose of a thread (none of them do)...rather. they are just  echo chambers, where the poster in question appears to only wants to speak their own ideas, and actually tries to shut conversation down...Hence my suggestion they belong in a PPD, not on the main forum

 

Anything else to add? Perhaps further commentary and suggestions on how others should act according to they feel? Maybe a set of guidelines? A flowchart?

[Shadow_self]

12 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

If you're serious about the idea of getting these threads moved to a PPD, may I suggest posting this suggestion in the Forum and Text support section and pinging the Mods to make sure you get noticed.

Im not in the business of telling the mods what to do, if they want to leave that persist its up to them I guess. I just don't think its a very good look for the forum. Thats their call to make though

 

7 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

100% agree with you. Unfortunately even when we ignore these threads the same individual will go to others and insult their practices, followers etc

I pay no mind to such "insults" being honest. I know more than a few folk who can demonstrate actual attainments...All I see from this person is what appears to be a closed mind, lots of misunderstandings and a hostile attitude

 

Its a sure sign that someone has effectively gone wrong in their practice. 

 

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Her threads seem more like a blog stream, or a preacher's net being cast, than a conversation; but as it doesn't seem to bother the mods and admin then they'll continue until she loses interest.  C'est la vie. 

I agree

 

When someone likes the sound of their own voice that much, I don't expect to see it cease anytime soon

 

2 hours ago, C T said:

I don't see this poster (awaken) is that aware of this fact. 

 

Amongst many other things 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Hence my suggestion they belong in a PPD, not on the main forum

 

Anything else to add? Perhaps further commentary and suggestions on how others should act according to they feel? Maybe a set of guidelines? A flowchart?

well since you ask. 1. @awaken is the most advanced practicer on this forum. 2 peeps who have nothing to say often try gagging those who do. 3 please stop flaming  @awaken 's threads. if you have an issue take it up with mods.

[doc benway]

On 6/21/2022 at 3:17 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

This is funny because I can not ask awaken. I am on ignore which is a good thing. Does she have any physical education?

 

The reason I ask is that she generally disregards chi gung or martial arts. On Wudang internal alchemy is only taught after a high standard of physical ability dissolving illness and quantity and quality of chi. Than one can sit in the cave to cultivate.

 

My suspicion is her wearing out the meditation mat with nothing to show in the real world. Could be wrong

My introduction to meditation came from my kung fu teacher.

He would only teach those who had studied external or internal martial arts or qigong for a minimum of 2 years.

Like others, martial arts and qigong have benefited me in so many ways. 

One of which was to serve as a foundation for deeper mental, energetic, and physical cultivation. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

well since you ask. 1. @awaken is the most advanced practicer on this forum. 2 peeps who have nothing to say often try gagging those who do. 3 please stop flaming  @awaken 's threads. if you have an issue take it up with mods.

I have no problem with awaken posting. The thing is our first conversation well not conversation but reply from her on Wu Wei She was threatened by my knowledge of the principle and application. Awaken was belligerent and insulting immediately.

 

My skill level is OK of wudang complete reality, dragon gate, long men pie, professionally trained for years ( I am not telling how many decades) to pass on these arts. 

 

Dao bums is entertainment to me. I like to read and post only when I have a positive contribution or its funny then I will definitely post.

 

My first attempt of furthering a topic with Awaken showed me what she is hiding and perpetrating a dead art.  

 

So I have no care, I careless of what ever she does here. My intention was positive feedback, conversation, maybe a kung fu sister and we could have a great time talking about what we are passionate about... But that is not going to happen.

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 awaken is the most advanced practicer on this forum. 

 

You're not the only Bum to think highly of Awaken's spiritual development, Taoist Texts.  Spotless, whose opinion I've always respected, has also said that she's very high level.  I think it's possible you're both correct.  It's unfortunate that her interpersonal style precludes the kind of easy egalitarian discussion that is the norm here.  In spite of annoying many, I gather that Awaken has managed to find some students on the forum.  While alienating respected and accomplished Bums at every turn, she's nevertheless successfully fullfilled her stated purpose.  Assuming that her students are happy and learning valuable teachings -- maybe we should ask them? -- I think that's all to the good.  

Edited June 25, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

well since you ask. 1. @awaken is the most advanced practicer on this forum. 2 peeps who have nothing to say often try gagging those who do. 3 please stop flaming  @awaken 's threads. if you have an issue take it up with mods.

 

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...Aside from your conjecture have you any actual verifiable evidence whatsoever to back up that claim? Or is just more talking?

 

2. I don't personally appreciate people making nonsensical claims as it misleads others...everyone's got a dantien, achieved samhadi, entered jhana or had a kundalini  awakening or "insert diluted now defunct term here" until they are actually asked to prove it.

 

What comes next? Radio silence,  textual argumentative blabber and fingers in the ears....

 

A sure sign of one who doesn't know what they are talking about, and certainly has no advanced attainments

 

3. An echo chamber is not a thread, hence my interjection. Theres a place on the forum for this kind of talking to yourself...it is called a PPD 

[wandelaar]

It isn't simply a question of interpersonal style but of a deep abhorrence of fellow human beings who are seen as not on the same level (and are thus disqualified as scumbags). If such falls under "high level spiritual development" than I prefer to be without it.

[C T]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You're not the only Bum to think highly of Awaken's spiritual development, Taoist Texts.  Spotless, whose opinion I've always respected, has also said that she's very high level.  I think it's possible you're both correct.  It's unfortunate that her interpersonal style precludes the kind of easy egalitarian discussion that is the norm here.  In spite of annoying many, I gather that Awaken has managed to find some students on the forum.  While alienating respected and accomplished Bums at every turn, she's nevertheless successfully accomplished her stated purpose.  Assuming that her students are happy and learning valuable teachings -- maybe we should ask them? -- I think that's all to the good.  

 

Luke the pacifier, the one who, 9 times out of 10, knows just the right thing to say at crucial moments. Wish I had such an ability, to be as cushiony, balmy, and with the patience thats almost saintly. 

 

Me... i just prefer to call a spade a spade in such contexts. 

To be high level and then to demonstrate such haughtiness takes some believing. 

And in terms of patience, on a scale of 1 to 10, you'd be a 9 while awaken likely hovers around 2 or 3. 

 

Moreover, when some internet entity is being endorsed as 'realized' or 'high level', that too, takes some believing. 

Including those who did the endorsing. Its just superficial. Ambivalence aplenty. 

 

[liminal_luke]

33 minutes ago, C T said:

 

 almost saintly. 

 

 

Not saintly, believe me, not saintly -- but thanks for the kind words!  

 

I think this conversation brings us to an interesting question: what is spiritual development?  I think spiritual development is like intelligence -- multifaceted.  People can excell in certain aspects while being deficient in others.  I can complete word puzzles like nobodies business but don't ask me to rotate geometric figures in my head.  In a similar way, I think it's possible to be an accomplished martial artist, healer, or alchemist and not get along well with others.  Part of me wishes it were not so.  The kind of spiritual development I value goes hand in hand with compassion and kindness.  

Edited June 25, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Master Logray]

In the modern world, a person can be highly developed in spirituality, wealth, art,  knowledge, skills, appearances, alchemy.   But offending others is offending others.  

[natural]

10 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

In the modern world, a person can be highly developed in spirituality, wealth, art,  knowledge, skills, appearances, alchemy.   But offending others is offending others.  

Intent is the key.

[C T]

54 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Not saintly, believe me, not saintly -- but thanks for the kind words!  

 

I think this conversation brings us to an interesting question: what is spiritual development?  I think spiritual development is like intelligence -- multifaceted.  People can excell in certain aspects while being deficient in others.  I can complete word puzzles like nobodies business but don't ask me to rotate geometric figures in my head.  In a similar way, I think it's possible to be an accomplished martial artist, healer, or alchemist and not get along well with others.  Part of me wishes it were not so.  The kind of spiritual development I value goes hand in hand with compassion and kindness.  

 

Ok... comparing my level of patience, for the sake of clarity. Maybe its not even that. Maybe its just that your nature is quite different when it comes to such matters. You have better tolerance, perhaps? 

 

As for the question you posed, well... in this regard, it'd be more precise to consider from the point of view of 'spiritually developed', one that assumes awaken has asserted this position, and not otherwise. There was no room for speculation, or rather, such a possibility (that she wasn't awakened) has no place within the scope of her interactions on this forum. Its her way or the highway. For her, the process of development has ended. Finito. That is really something that I would encourage everyone to have a good think-over. It is quite a claim to make, more so when it directly contradicts the ethos of sageliness as per the teachings this entity claims mastery over. 

 

To those who have been in her bad books, and there's a good few here (me included), compassion and kindness was definitely in short order. These two qualities are pretty good markers for discerning if one's mastery is indeed of the level claimed. Throw in tolerance to complete the pic. Having said this, I'd admit it is challenging to judge anything with any finality given the limits of online interactions. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by C T
tidying up

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

 

To those who have been in her bad books, and there's a good few here (me included), compassion and kindness was definitely in short order. 

 

Patient or not I'll say this: anybody who has put you in a "bad book" is no friend of mine.

Edited June 25, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Shadow_self]

40 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Ok... comparing my level of patience, for the sake of clarity. Maybe its not even that. Maybe its just that your nature is quite different when it comes to such matters. You have better tolerance, perhaps? 

 

As for the question you posed, well... in this regard, it'd be more precise to consider from the point of view of 'spiritually developed', one that assumes awaken has asserted this position, and not otherwise. There was no room for speculation, or rather, such a possibility (that she wasn't awakened) has no place within the scope of her interactions on this forum. Its her way or the highway. For her, the process of development has ended. Finito. That is really something that I would encourage everyone to have a good think-over. It is quite a claim to make, more so when it directly contradicts the ethos of sageliness as per the teachings this entity claims mastery over. 

 

To those who have been in her bad books, and there's a good few here (me included), compassion and kindness was definitely in short order. These two qualities are pretty good markers for discerning if one's mastery is indeed of the level claimed. Throw in tolerance to complete the pic. Having said this, I'd admit it is challenging to judge anything with any finality given the limits of online interactions. 

 

Nailhead...meet hammer

 

Neidan "proper" as I understand it should produce remarkable change in a persons overall being. If it does not...something most likely has gone wrong

 

Energetic buildup however (as per Neigong, for example) can just make a person more of whatever they are...If you are a bad person and start doing energetic work...chances are you'll be a worse one

 

I find it odd thar for someone who constantly rabbits on about how bad and deplorable neigong methods are...the so called "transfer method"...This individual has all the signs of someone who has practiced it and just turned the volume up on their "self"

Edited June 25, 2022 by Shadow_self

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...Aside from your conjecture have you any actual verifiable evidence whatsoever to back up that claim? Or is just more talking?

 

Has anyone here met her in person? Or at the very least does anyone here know someone who’s met her in person?

 

Are there videos of her where she demonstrates the abilities she’s gained from being at such a high level? We have members on this site who can faqi and fajin, I’m sure someone of her calibre will make this look like child’s play in comparison. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

The reason why a person who only has qi in his lower abdomen can't understand the WuZenPian.

 

This explains a lot besides being something that is not alive on this planet. It is simply not possible.

 

One could also consider that chi does not have a physical location.  The three treasures is what everyone is born with. which we can consider being energy or chi of pre body.

 

What  makes the body (vitality). What moves the body (chi). What controls the movement and stillness of the body (spirit).

 

Again with two parts of the whole, is it the original spirit or acquired spirit that is moving this body around?

 

One could also deduct that the many facets of chi are actual one energy. Governing and conception vessels are called two but in reality they are one, they depend on each other to exist hence being alive.

 

The material life is first and foremost. Taking care of our temporary body, making ends meet and so on being active in the world.

 

Then we also live with our formless self that transcends the laws of yin and yang, physical reality. Back to the three treasures we are all born with it is not a special or a unique situation to one individual. All people have this.

 

It does not need to be complicated with sun and moon or rabbit marrow and a black liver these are technical terms to only point at something. In themselves the terms are not important. They are pointing words of what is beyond words The wordless teaching using words see how that is funny.

 

IMO seriousness stagnates energy.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Has anyone here met her in person? Or at the very least does anyone here know someone who’s met her in person?

 

Are there videos of her where she demonstrates the abilities she’s gained from being at such a high level? We have members on this site who can faqi and fajin, I’m sure someone of her calibre will make this look like child’s play in comparison. 

 

So far all I have seen from this person is lambasting anyone who might offer an alternative viewpoint. It says a lot about the fruits of a practice when someone is literally unable to converse with people without emotionally reacting like that.

 

Not a path i'd care to walk.

 

Hopefully the mods can categorize these threads where they belong though...I imagine for people looking from the outside in, they are far from welcoming.

[awaken]

我找學生的原因是因為看不慣謊話連篇的氣功假大師信徒，希望更多人跟我一樣看穿謊言，如此而已

 

只要帶著善意跟我溝通，我同樣帶著善意跟你溝通

 

帶著惡意的還來要求平等主義的人，誰要跟這種人平等啊？

 

趕緊遠離這種人，才是上策

 

The reason I'm looking for students is because I'm not used to qigong fake master believers who tell lies. I hope more people can see through lies like me, that's all

As long as you communicate with me with kindness, I will communicate with you with kindness as well.

Who wants to be equal to such a person who comes to demand egalitarianism with malice?

Is it the best policy to get away from such people as soon as possible?

 

 

請不要假借平等主義，散播你的惡性霸凌行為

 

Please don't spread your vicious bullying under the guise of egalitarianism

 

老子早就說過下德之人會有什麼行為，不意外

就是因為下德，才會有這樣的行為

我改變不了這些人，只能保持距離

 

Lao Tzu has long said that people of inferior virtue will behave, and it is not surprising

It is because of inferior virtue that such behavior occurs

I can't change these people, I can only keep my distance

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

南北宗源翻卦象，晨昏火候合天樞。

 

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/悟真篇

 

這段講的是水火顛倒的丹道原理，也就是腎水原本在下，顛倒成在上面的烏肝，而心火原本在上，卻顛倒成在下的兔髓，烏肝屬陽在上，兔髓屬陰在下，烏肝來自於腎水，兔髓來自於心火，所以用翻卦象來講，表示顛倒原來的位置，原本南在上，火在上，北在下，水在下，練了之後，變成南在下，火在下，兔髓在下，北在上，水在上，烏肝在上。

 

早晨就是陰極生陽，黃昏就是陽極生陰，這樣的一個陰陽轉換，是合乎天地轉換的道理，樞就是樞紐，就是轉換，天地轉換的道理，也就是陰陽相生的道理。

 

This paragraph is about the Dan Dao principle of the inversion of water and fire, that is, the kidney water is originally at the bottom, and it is reversed into the black liver on the top, while the heart fire is originally on the top, but it is reversed into the rabbit marrow below. Marrow belongs to yin below, black liver comes from kidney water, rabbit marrow comes from heart fire, so in terms of hexagrams, it means that the original position is reversed. Originally, the south is up, the fire is up, the north is down, and the water is down. After that, it becomes the south is down, the fire is down, the rabbit marrow is down, the north is up, the water is up, and the black liver is up.

 

In the morning, the cathode generates yang, and in the evening, the anode generates yin. Such a transformation of yin and yang is in line with the principle of the transformation of heaven and earth. The pivot is the pivot, which is transformation.

 

to be continue to modify the translation of google

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[liminal_luke]

Awaken,

 

One of the things I admire about you is your one-pointed devotion to your stated goals.  Life is short and you are looking for those people who are ready and willing to put in the work to learn what you have to teach and have no time or energy to waste on those who aren't.  More power to you!  

 

At the same time I've noticed that you've stirred up some controversy and upset some people.  There's drama in this thread right now and I wonder if this drama isn't taking you away, even if just a little, from your own purpose.  I hope you won't mind if I offer a suggestion.  Why deal at all with people who clearly aren't a match for what you have to offer? Very few people are open to criticism of their practice, perhaps especially those who have many years experience and their own teachers.  You likely can use your intuition to tell if someone would be open to taking guidance from you.  If they are not, why bother saying anything at all?  Perhaps you can see that someone is using the transfer method and believing in incorrect teachings.  That's unfortunate.  But you can't change the whole world so why offer advice to somebody who is not willing to hear what you have to say?  Why tell them that they are practicing incorrectly at all?  Doing so just stirs up bad feeling and the people don't end up listening to you anyway.  The same with the whole ignore feature of the forum.  If you want to ignore someone why tell them about it?  Telling someone they are on your ignore list tends to make people mad...and what's the point of that?  Just ignore them quietly and go on doing what you do.

 

I take it you've found some students here.  I wish you and your students success and hope you reach your goals.  Not everybody here is ready for what you have to offer and that's OK.  Life really is short.  If you skillfully refuse to engage with those who aren't prepared to learn from you these controversies will stop.  That might be a good thing for all.

 

Humbly,

LL

Edited June 26, 2022 by liminal_luke

[awaken]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Awaken,

 

One of the things I admire about you is your one-pointed devotion to your stated goals.  Life is short and you are looking for those people who are ready and willing to put in the work to learn what you have to teach and have no time or energy to waste on those who aren't.  More power to you!  

 

At the same time I've noticed that you've stirred up some controversy and upset some people.  There's drama in this thread right now and I wonder if this drama isn't taking you away, even if just a little, from your own purpose.  I hope you won't mind if I offer a suggestion.  Why deal at all with people who clearly aren't a match for what you have to offer? Very few people are open to criticism of their practice, perhaps especially those who have many years experience and their own teachers.  You likely can use your intuition to tell if someone would be open to taking guidance from you.  If they are not, why bother saying anything at all?  Perhaps you can see that someone is using the transfer method and believing in incorrect teachings.  That's unfortunate.  But you can't change the whole world so why offer advice to somebody who is not willing to hear what you have to say?  Why tell them that they are practicing incorrectly at all?  Doing so just stirs up bad feeling and the people don't end up listening to you anyway.  The same with the whole ignore feature of the forum.  If you want to ignore someone why tell them about it?  Telling someone they are on your ignore list tends to make people mad...and what's the point of that?  Just ignore them quietly and go on doing what you do.

 

I take it you've found some students here.  I wish you and your students success and hope you reach your goals.  Not everybody here is ready for what you have to offer and that's OK.  Life really is short.  If you skillfully refuse to engage with those who aren't prepared to learn from you these controversies will stop.  That might be a good thing for all.

 

Humbly,

LL

 

 

我從來不是說給那些人聽，如果你有仔細看我的文章的話，你就應該看得出來，我從來不是對那些人對話

 

這一點我已經說過很多次了

 

如果我要說給那些人聽，我又何必把他們都列入忽略名單呢？

 

搬運法不是唯一一個扭曲道法的團體，我也不是只說搬運法而已，在我自己的臉書，我說得更多關於其他領域。

 

我一向都是對著未被污染的新人說的。

 

I never talk to those people, if you read my articles carefully, you should see that I never talk to those people

I've said this many times

If I'm going to tell those people, why should I put them all on the ignore list?

Transfer method isn't the only group that twists Taoism, and I'm not just talking about TM(Transfer method), on my own Facebook, I speak more about other areas.

I always speak to uncontaminated newcomers.

 

你的建議是，即使我忽略那個人，我也不要說出來，是吧？

 

這樣挺好的，以後我就試試看這樣，應該效果會比較好

 

Your advice is, even if I ignore that person, I don't say it, right?

This is very good, I will try this in the future, it should work better

 

我認為我還是把那些人想得太善良了

我原來的想法是，我已經不想跟你講了，請你也不要跟我講

我以為這些人會跟我印象中優雅的西方人一樣，知道進退

但是那些人的邪惡程度比我想的還要嚴重許多

即使我跟他說我不想跟他說了，他還是一直騷擾我

所以我覺得我低估了這些人的邪惡程度，是我的失算

 

I think I still think of those people too kindly

My original thought was, I don't want to talk to you anymore, please don't talk to me either

I thought these people would be like the elegant Westerners I remember, knowing how to advance and retreat

But those people are far more evil than I thought

He kept harassing me even though I told him I didn't want to tell him

So I think it's my miscalculation that I underestimated how evil these people are

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

須知大隱居鄽市，何必深山守靜孤。

 

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/悟真篇

 

We must know that the truly great hermits live in cities
Why stay alone in the deep mountains?