The reason why a person who only has qi in his lower abdomen can't understand the WuZenPian

[C T]

Immaturity to the max, so much so need to be spoon fed basic common etiquette. Sigh... 

 

Endorsed as the most advanced adept on this board. Really. No kidding. 

 

 

 

 

edit. afterthought - If I didn't know better, it would seem non-evil people are intent on lowering this site's bar for what constitutes a high level/advanced practitioner.  

Edited June 26, 2022 by C T

[awaken]

丹熟自然金滿屋，何須尋草學燒茅。

 

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/悟真篇

 

After the golden elixir matures, the natural golden light will fill the entrance.
Why should one go to irrelevant grass to learn to burn thatch?

 

張伯端這句話自然也是在批評錯誤的方法

Zhang Boduan's words are naturally also criticizing the wrong method.

 

佛陀的第一個學生，舍利弗，說過同樣的話，錯誤的路有許多，正確的路只有一條

一個修行者在找到路的過程中，一定會看到許多錯誤的道路

而他在分享修行的心得的時候，一定會把看到的錯誤分享出來

這是非常正常的行為

不管是張伯端或者佛法修行者都是一樣的作法

 

 

Buddha's first student, Shariputra, said the same thing, there are many wrong ways, but there is only one right way

In the process of finding the way, a practitioner will surely see many wrong paths.

And when he shares the experience of practice, he will definitely share the mistakes he sees.

This is very normal behavior

Whether it is Zhang Boduan or a Dharma practitioner, it is the same practice

 

這裡所講的這個錯誤的方法，在這個論壇是比較少見的，可以說是沒有的

因為煉製草藥，把草藥當成丹道並非是現代常見的謬誤

現代常見的謬誤大多是氣功假大師所塑造出來的各種價值觀為主

 

The wrong method mentioned here is relatively rare in this forum, and it can be said that there is no such thing as

Because of refining herbs, treating herbs as elixir is not a common fallacy in modern times

Most of the common fallacies in modern times are mainly based on various values created by fake qigong masters

 

比較常見的是把黃色的烏肝當成金丹，這是最常見的謬誤

 

It is more common to regard yellow black liver as golden elixir, which is the most common fallacy

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@Earl Grey

 

What happened? I have been away for some time, but before that I always appreciated your posts as coming from one of the more knowledgeable members here although I didn't always agree with you. Why not just go on posting your own opinion on and/or experience with things as you used to do?

 

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

He keep getting banned for some reason. 

 

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Weird!

 

One of the perks of having our own forum (AG) is that I am not as attached to whatever happens here as before, though I pop in from time to time for various duties and connections here on TDB.

[awaken]

https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/井底之蛙

 

關於井底之蛙，有一個謬誤

 

就是這隻青蛙原來在莊子的文章中並非是在井底，而是在陷阱裡面

 

後來才延伸使用變成井底

 

There is a fallacy about the frog in the well

It is this frog that in Zhuangzi's article is not in the bottom of the well, but in the trap

Later, it was extended to become the bottom of the well

 

 

如果莊子使用的是『陷阱』，那就更符合修煉當中會遇到的現象了

因為在修煉當中，陷阱是非常多的

每一個陷阱都代表一個內心的黑暗面

例如追求強大的氣感，就是一種貪欲的黑暗面

這些陷阱將修行者困守在一個地區，無法產生演化，練到更深的地方

因此這些人只能用短淺的眼光來看世界

所以莊子才說淺薄的沒辦法測量深的

由此可知莊子真的是非常感嘆人的溝通是很困難的

 

If Zhuangzi used the "trap", it would be more in line with the phenomenon that will be encountered in cultivation.

Because in cultivation, there are many traps.

Every trap represents an inner dark side

 

For example, the pursuit of powerful Qi is the dark side of greed

These traps trap practitioners in one area, unable to evolve and go deeper

So these people can only see the world with a short-sighted view

That's why Zhuangzi said that the shallow cannot measure the deep.

 

It can be seen from this that Zhuangzi really lamented that it is very difficult for people to communicate

 

當然我也有同樣的感嘆人的難以溝通

Of course, I also have the same sigh that people are difficult to communicate

 

所有的經典，所有的大師都告訴我們，面對這樣的人的時候

是沒辦法溝通的

只能退守內心的一點真心

 

All the classics, all the masters tell us that when facing such  people

there is no way to communicate

Only a little bit of sincerity in our heart can be retreated

 

把精力保留給真正重要的人

這個重要的人當然也包含自己

Reserve our energy for the people who really matter

Of course this important person also includes ourselves

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

 

 

關於修煉上的種種謬誤，我另外成立一個主題來討論，這裡只是稍微提到一下

主題還是以悟真篇為主

 

Regarding the various fallacies in cultivation, I will set up a separate topic to discuss, and I will only mention a little here.

The theme is still mainly to WuZhenPian.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

54 minutes ago, C T said:

Immaturity to the max, so much so need to be spoon fed basic common etiquette. Sigh... 

 

Endorsed as the most advanced adept on this board. Really. No kidding. 

 

 

 

 

edit. afterthought - If I didn't know better, it would seem non-evil people are intent on lowering this site's bar for what constitutes a high level/advanced practitioner.  

Once you reach a high enough level, basic social etiquette and manners does not apply to you any more. It is such a powerful siddhi.

[C T]

2 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Once you reach a high enough level, basic social etiquette and manners does not apply to you any more. It is such a powerful siddhi.

 

Not siddhi.... miracle 

[awaken]

要知產藥川源處，只在西南認本鄉。

 

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/悟真篇

 

To know where the source of the medicine is produced, the hometown is only recognized in the southwest.

 

想要知道產生藥的來源

 

If you want to know where the medicine comes from

 

川 river

源 source

 

 

 

這裡採用劉一明的說法，西南就是陰極生陽的地方

 

這裡的藥，應該是指大藥，當然烏肝兔髓小藥也會在這個地方產生

 

Using Liu Yiming's statement here, the southwest is the place where the cathode generates Yang.

The medicine here should refer to the big medicine. Of course, the small medicine of black liver and rabbit marrow will also be produced in this place.

 

如果你的程度是只有氣感，你完全看不見任何光

那麼你最初的烏肝，也會從陰極生陽的地方開始出現

 

If your level is only Qi, you can't see any light at all

Then your original black liver will also appear from the place where the cathode generates yang.

 

當你的烏肝產生能力穩定之後，就可以在最初的陽就出現

也就是你最初的陽，不會只有氣而已，你可以進化到烏肝光

 

When your black liver production capacity is stable, it can appear in the first Yang

That is your original yang, not just qi, you can evolve to black liver light

 

同樣的，大藥也是一樣的情況

最初的大藥也是從陰極生陽的地方產生

直到三階段陽生的程度之後，當你有穩定的產生大藥的能力，才會變成從第一個陽的地方出現

 

The same goes for big medicine

The original big medicine was also produced from the place where the cathode generates yang

After the third stage of yang generation, when you have a stable ability to produce big medicine, it will appear from the first yang place.

 

但是我不喜歡講得太深入，因為大部分的人程度太差

連烏肝小藥都沒有，太難了

 

But I don't like to go too deep, because most people‘s level are too low

 don't even have black liver small medicine, it's too difficult to talk about big medicine

 

但是這一點，對一個初學者來說，就可以作為判斷對方是否是氣功假大師的依據之一了

如果對方完全不懂陰陽，也不知道陰極生陽是什麼，也不知道藥產生的來源

你就可以輕易的判斷對方就是氣功假大師了

這樣可以避免你被假的氣功大師所欺騙

 

But this, for a beginner, can be used as one of the basis for judging whether the other party is a fake master of Qigong

If the other party does not understand yin and yang at all, he does not know what "cathode generates yang", and he does not know the source of medicine.

You can easily judge that the other party is a fake qigong master

This will prevent you from being deceived by fake qigong masters

 

如果有一個人跟你說，你注意呼吸，然後你產生的氣感就是小藥，如果你不注意呼吸，這個氣感會自動運行，就稱為大藥

如果這個人這樣說的話，你就可以判斷出來，這個人就是假的氣功大師

 

If someone tells you that you pay attention to your breathing, then the sense of qi you produce is a small medicine. If you don't pay attention to your breathing, this sense of qi will automatically operate, which is called a big medicine.

If this person says this, you can tell that this person is a fake qigong master

 

因為他根本搞不清楚什麼是小藥，什麼是大藥

他只是在玩弄身體的感覺而已

 

Because he doesn't know what is a small medicine and what is a big medicine

He's just playing with the feeling of his body

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

This is my worry. When I first joined this site there were quite a lot of cool threads, but recently most threads have been created by her and even in the few not created by her she has gone in and said their methods are bad, their religions are wrong etc. If I came in at this time I would never come back. 

 

I asked the mods to chime in on it...It is becoming increasingly annoying to see the same echo chamber threads hitting the top of the forum where no actual discussion takes place, and also, sends some rather bleak signals to outsiders

 

 

[awaken]

 

劉一明：『西南者，坤方，為月晦極復蘇，陰極生陽之地，在人為靜極初動之時，這個靜極之動，即是大藥發現之時。』

 

Liu Yi Min : 『In the southwest, Kun Fang, is the place where the lunar dark pole is revived, and the place where "the negative pole generates the yang", when the human-made static pole first moves, this static pole movement is the time when the great medicine is discovered.』

 

搬運法的練習方式，把意識硬撐在陽的狀態，因此無法理解什麼是『陰極生陽』

The practice method of the transfer method keeps the consciousness in the state of yang, so it is impossible to understand what "cathode generates yang"

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

5 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I asked the mods to chime in on it...It is becoming increasingly annoying to see the same echo chamber threads hitting the top of the forum where no actual discussion takes place, and also, sends some rather bleak signals to outsiders

 

 

Back in May I took this screenshot showing how bad it was, and posted it in a thread where someone else was complaining about them. Not including the pinned threads, 12 out of 27 threads have been created by them, and 14 out of 27 threads have them as the last comment.

[Shadow_self]

16 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Back in May I took this screenshot showing how bad it was, and posted it in a thread where someone else was complaining about them. Not including the pinned threads, 12 out of 27 threads have been created by them, and 14 out of 27 threads have them as the last comment.

 

I think the mods will look over it now....Its all becoming a bit much

[awaken]

西南是坤，講的是方位，在丹道裡面講的是狀態，也就是極陰的狀態

 

這跟北方寒水是不同的

 

 

The southwest is Kun, which is about orientation. In Alchemy, it is about state, that is, the state of extreme yin.

This is different from the northern cold water

 

 

[awaken]

https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&res=269636

 

劉一明版本的悟真篇解釋，是我看過最接近真相的解釋

相信這本書應該是有英語版的

我記得很久以前的有人提起這本書

但是幾乎很少人在討論

 

如果真的想明白丹道名詞是否被氣功假大師誤用，最好讀一下劉一明這本書，可以避免被氣功假大師誤導

 

Liu Yiming's version of Wuzhen's explanation is the closest to the truth I have ever seen.

I believe this book should have an English version

I remember someone mentioning this book a long time ago

But few people are talking about

If you really want to know whether the nouns of Alchemy have been misused by fake qigong masters, you'd better read Liu Yiming's book to avoid being misled by fake qigong masters

 

能明其理，則真知確見，而不為假者所惑，可以盡性，可以至命。否則，不窮其理，是非罔辨，邪正不分，入於旁門曲徑，著空執相，非是修真，乃是務假。

 

translation 1

If you can understand the rationale, you will know the truth and see clearly, and you will not be deceived by the false. Otherwise, there are endless reasons, right and wrong are indistinguishable, there is no distinction between right and wrong, and one enters the sideways and winding paths, and clings to emptiness.

 

translation 2

If you can understand this truth, you will not be deceived by the false.
If you don't understand this truth, you will not be able to distinguish right from wrong, and you will enter the wrong path
In this way, you are not cultivating truth, but cultivating falsehood.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by awaken

[Cobie]

6 hours ago, awaken said:

… If you don't pay attention to your breathing, this sense of qi will automatically operate …

 

True, in my experience. 

[鞏三孝]

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

(sigh) note that you did not specify what exact evidence you have in mind. you did not because the moment you say that word out loud the ridiculousness of it becomes obvious. let me help you. the evidence you request is called 'a miracle'. And no, i dont have such evidence because miracles do not exist. Whoever requires a miracle as an evidence lives in a childish la-la land.

 

The person you venerate as the highest adept here also claims the ability to smell people hundreds or thousands of kilometers away...... through her computer screen 

 

If that's not a siddhi, it must be a miracle. It's also funny how you trust her so much

 

On 5/4/2022 at 11:50 PM, awaken said:

氣場又很差

.......

還一陣臭味透過遠方的氣場傳來

我不知道你為什麼會散發出這樣的臭味

希望你在發言之前

能夠平靜一點

最好要齋戒十天十夜

不要污染這裡的氣場

 

The atmosphere is bad

.......

There is also a stench coming from the aura in the distance

I don't know why you smell like this

Hope you speak before

be calm

It is better to fast for ten days and ten nights

Don't pollute the aura here

 

On 5/4/2022 at 11:43 PM, awaken said:

突然一股很濃的煙味透過遠方的氣場傳來

真是太噁心了

遇到太多練搬運法的人，氣場真是差到不行

若不是心術不正或者被詐騙了，怎麼會想要練這種東西呢？

 

Suddenly, a strong smell of smoke came from the aura in the distance.

so disgusting

When I meet too many people who practice the handling method, the aura is really bad.

If it wasn't for a bad mind or being deceived, why would you want to practice this kind of thing?

 

Well, I do remember

 

A very wise and learned man once said...........

 

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

the ridiculousness of it becomes obvious. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

If that's not a siddhi, it must be a miracle.

you seem kinda thoughtful so i will explain to you what siddhi are and how they are different from miracles.

 

miracles are defined as OBJECTIVE (provable to others) deviations from the laws of nature. yet miracles OBJECTIVELY do not exist. thats why nobody experienced one and never will. when people tell about them witnessing a miracle what actually happens is: A it is not a miracle B its a false memory C its a happy coincidence D it is a lie

 

siddhis are positive SUBJECTIVE experiences. they are not OBJECTIVE, they exist only for the the experiencer. they are not provable to others. Any stories of OBJECTIVE sidhis are miracles (see above).

 

Do you see the diff now?

Awaken claims to have an unusual subjective experience. Thats all there is to it and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

4 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

It's also funny how you trust her so much

 

Trust is a wrong term here. I know she is correct on the beginning stages of the practice. I disagree with her on the latter ones yet respect her as the only advanced practicer here, and an all around great lady.

 

Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai by Yamamoto Tsunetomo.— A man who will criticize you openly carries no connivance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

you seem kinda thoughtful so i will explain to you what siddhi are and how they are different from miracles.

 

miracles are defined as OBJECTIVE (provable to others) deviations from the laws of nature. yet miracles OBJECTIVELY do not exist. thats why nobody experienced one and never will. when people tell about them witnessing a miracle what actually happens is: A it is not a miracle B its a false memory C its a happy coincidence D it is a lie

 

siddhis are positive SUBJECTIVE experiences. they are not OBJECTIVE, they exist only for the the experiencer. they are not provable to others. Any stories of OBJECTIVE sidhis are miracles (see above).

 

Do you see the diff now?

Awaken claims to have an unusual subjective experience. Thats all there is to it and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Trust is a wrong term here. I know she is correct on the beginning stages of the practice. I disagree with her on the latter ones yet respect her as the only advanced practicer here, and an all around great lady.

 

Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai by Yamamoto Tsunetomo.— A man who will criticize you openly carries no connivance.

What about faqi or fajin? Are they miracles since they can be felt by others apart from the experiencer? 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Pak_Satrio

[鞏三孝]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

miracles are defined as OBJECTIVE (provable to others) deviations from the laws of nature. yet miracles OBJECTIVELY do not exist. thats why nobody experienced one and never will. when people tell about them witnessing a miracle what actually happens is: A it is not a miracle B its a false memory C its a happy coincidence D it is a lie

 

siddhis are positive SUBJECTIVE experiences. they are not OBJECTIVE, they exist only for the the experiencer. they are not provable to others. Any stories of OBJECTIVE sidhis are miracles (see above).

 

I'm not sure which dictionary you use to define "miracle", I looked up some like Oxford, Cambridge and Webster's. Their definition actually doesn't include what you said about "OBJECTIVE (provable to others) deviations from the laws of nature" but that's okay. For discussion purposes, we can use your definition as our ad hoc definition.

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Do you see the diff now?

 

Ok, no miracle.

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Awaken claims to have an unusual subjective experience. Thats all there is to it and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Ok, I can agree your statement Awaken "claims to have an unusual subjective experience." 

 

 

As for subjectivity, I certainly can't objectively say that my aura doesn't stink. When she sniffed my Qi with her supernatural powers, maybe it was too pungent. Actually after she yelled at me for the first time, I bought a more expensive bar of soap...maybe it did work since she hadn't complained about my smell for weeks!! 

 

 

However, she also said that with her magical powers, she could see that I was practicing the "transfer method", and that I use a technique to bring Qi into my lower dantien. This is objectively wrong. She is deceiving herself into believing she has magic detecting powers she does not have, and saying she can teach people to develop the same thing. Sad for her, sad for students

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Trust is a wrong term here. I know she is correct on the beginning stages of the practice. I disagree with her on the latter ones yet respect her as the only advanced practicer here, and an all around great lady.

 

I see

 

 

In fact, I also agree that some of her comments about Taoist cultivation are very correct.

 

For example, I also don't think moving Qi intentionally is a good way to practice (but I do not oppose it and maybe it is good for some people). Also, I think there are a lot of good reasons not to pay attention to the lower Dantien. I agree that Wuzhenpian didn't teach those things. I agree that Qigong is not Neidan. Some of the things I practice might have something to do with the way she practice. But I'll never know, because she immediately blocked me when I warned her that her Google Translate teachings contained bizarre sexual mistranslations which will mislead people. Telling her this was enough to label me as one of the "evil" ones

 

 

Even though I agree with her on some things, I still think she has terrible delusions of grandeur. She is so convinced of herself that when confronted with slightly opposing views, her responses are always shock, anger, and aggression... 

 

Sadly, this kind of thing happens many times in Taoism and Buddhism and other spirituality. Often it is like this: people have some very intense experiences of spirit and Qi, and then begin to think that they are highly achieved, or even fully enlightened. Once this kind of thinking is deeply rooted in the heart of a person, it is very difficult to change. Due to misinterpreting Qi or spirit experiences, what could have been a golden ticket becomes a ticket to disaster instead. A good Taoist teacher will help students avoid this trap. When the student thinks "wow wow wow I can see lights, it must be _______" or "wow deities are visiting me" or something, then the teacher gives a perspective and brings the student back to reality. Basically the teacher is saying "don't be silly, quiet your mind, keep practicing."

 

It's a pity that Awaken has never had a teacher. There was nobody to help her understand her experience. She is only one person practicing alone and reading books alone. She reads ancient symbolic poetry that can be interpreted in 1,000 different ways......No matter what, it always appears to her to confirm her underlying conclusion: "I totally understand the entire paths of Taoism and Buddhism." She seems to have fallen so deeply into this trap, and she kept there by her fiery, explosive emotions. 

 

Now the person who never had a teachers wants to be other people's teacher. Very complicated. Long run, could be tragic. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

19 minutes ago, 鞏三孝 said:

However, she also said that with her magical powers, she could see that I was practicing the "transfer method", and that I use a technique to bring Qi into my lower dantien. This is objectively wrong. She is deceiving herself into believing she has magic detecting powers she does not have, and saying she can teach people to develop the same thing. Sad for her, sad for students

When I agreed with her and said I do see some of the things she describes during practice, she was very nice and friendly. After I clarified to her that what I practice is what she considers the “transfer method”, she became hostile and put me on the ignore list.

 

It seems like her magic detecting powers only work after I tell her what method I’m doing, and my qi also magically changes from strong to smelly.

 

My real concern isn’t the insults, I find them very entertaining and funny to be honest and don’t take them seriously, but that she is positioning herself as a teacher and has students following her. I’m not against teacher and systems that are different from mine, diversity is good, we can all learn from each other. But the way a teacher acts should be a sign as to what the practice does to you. I’m not only worried that her students may practice incorrectly due to badly google translated instructions, but that they might practice correctly according to her instructions and end up like her.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Pak_Satrio

[鞏三孝]

11 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

When I agreed with her and said I do see some of the things she describes during practice, she was very nice and friendly. After I clarified to her that what I practice is what she considers the “transfer method”, she became hostile and put me on the ignore list.

 

It seems like her magic detecting powers only work after I tell her what method I’m doing, and my qi also magically changes from strong to smelly.

 

 

Well, I think if we agree with Mr. Taoist Text's definition of siddhi ("siddhis are positive SUBJECTIVE experiences"), then she still has a siddhi......It is merely strongly influenced by her subjectivity, in this case, anger and hatred to people practicing certain types of Taoist teachings

 

I think there are at least 7 billion people who can perform similar level of "siddhi"

Edited June 27, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

What about faqi or fajin? Are they miracles since they can be felt by others apart from the experiencer? 

Fajin is a result of a VERY long physical training, there is nothing miraculous about it.

 

Faqi does not exist. The receiver of qi does not feels the qi of the qi emitter. "Faqi" is only felt by people with unstable psyches, impressionable and superstitious by nature. When they are in an exciting environment such a temple or a dojo or a presence of a guru, their weak minds become imbalanced and hence overwhelmed by the otherwise  ordinary sensory input. In order to cope,  their  subconscious transforms the superfluous sensory input into a separate stream of a feeling which is perceived as qi.

[Cobie]

Hallucinating ‘siddhis’ in my experience is a side effect of intermediate stages of cultivation and best ignored as totally unimportant. 

 

The real goal of cultivation in my experience is the ‘miracle’ of the coming into existence of 德 de2 - virtue, morals, kindness.  
 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Cobie

[鞏三孝]

26 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Hallucinating ‘siddhis’ in my experience is a side effect of intermediate stages of cultivation and best ignored as totally unimportant. 

 

The real goal of cultivation in my experience is the ‘miracle’ of the coming into existence of 德 de2 - virtue, morals, kindness.  

 

Would you advise people to do the spiritual practices taught by a teacher who is still in the stage of hallucinatory siddhis and has yet to manifest "virtue, morals, kindness"?

[wandelaar]

20 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Hallucinating ‘siddhis’ in my experience is a side effect of intermediate stages of cultivation and best ignored as totally unimportant. 

 

The real goal of cultivation in my experience is the ‘miracle’ of the coming into existence of 德 de2 - virtue, morals, kindness. 

 

I agree with that. Acquiring (supernatural) powers as a goal of cultivation might start one on the path but should indeed eventually be replaced by goals like virtue, morals and kindness. The latter might help one to lead a fulfilling and pleasant life. The quest for power however will lead to endless battles, frustrations, and spoiled relations with fellow human beings. This is true regardless of whether supernatural powers exist or not.