The reason why a person who only has qi in his lower abdomen can't understand the WuZenPian

[Cobie]

49 minutes ago, C T said:

… that dark cloud from the 12th century is still looming large here on TDB today.

 

Is it?

 

I do not see it.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Cobie

[C T]

9 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Is it?

 

 

 

Lately, yes. Relative to both the quantity of awaken's non-engaging posts dotted all over the board (or engagement permitted with very set boundaries and criterias - mind you, this is happening on the public forums). Isn't this a form of brutality? Whats the message being sent by not speaking out about such wantonly abusive behaviour? This is one. Secondly, the presence of what I would term attempts to justify this unpleasant attitude by alluding to its okayness just because a key figure in real Daoism had a weakness for abuse and violence. (See Taoist Text's earlier post). 

Edited June 28, 2022 by C T

[Cobie]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

… awaken's … posts …

 

Oh dear. Hmm …  I am a newbie here and prefer to not say more about this. Peace and love.  

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Cobie

[C T]

Just now, Cobie said:

 

Oh dear. Hmm …  I am a newbie here and prefer to not say more about this. Peace and love. 

 

Thats okay. Lets just hope silence is not a form of consent then. 

[鞏三孝]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

https://www.persee.fr/doc/befeo_0336-1519_1981_num_69_1_3361

 

pages 159-160

 

 

This is a good paper and impressive research. Thanks for sharing. I think the author is accurate about what Ma Tan-yang said in his own writing about learning from Wang Che. Did you read the original work, Yuan play, and Ma Tan-yang and Wang Che essays and lyric poems? As you say, this kind of research is "professional, not role-player"

Edited June 28, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Did you read the original work, Yuan play,

no, because it is just a play for a public consumption, i am interested in the original linage materials

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Ma Tan-yang

yes all of his works

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Wang Che

some of it, he does not speak to me as much as Ma and Qiu do

[Geof Nanto]

15 hours ago, C T said:

 

Evidently that dark cloud from the 12th century is still looming large here on TDB today. No surprise. Karma is indeed a wonderful thing. If more Taoist practitioners subscribe to enabling abuse, or are themselves abusers, this dark mass will just gather more darkness till it eventually seeps into the marrows of contemporary adherents. Seems like it already has to some extent. I sure hope TDB is not condoning any suggestions that abuse is a necessary form of teaching, because this is clearly a warped, deviant view. 

 

@zerostao @steve

 

Of great relevance here is the fact that Sean, the site owner, has made it very clear that he wants Dao Bums to be a forum underpinned by kindness and compassion. To my observation, the upholding of these qualities by staff is the fundamental reason Dao Bums has survived as a vibrant place. Sure, robust discussion is welcome here because allowing respectful disagreement gives this forum its vitality. But the key word here is respectful. 

 

If Taoist Texts or anyone else wants to promote a form of Daoism or any other philosophy which goes against these values, or engage in the type of discussion characterised by trying to demean and belittle anyone who disagrees with them, then the site owner has made it clear that they are not welcome here. 

 

You've tagged @zerostao and @steve. I'll add @Trunk, @ilumairen and @dwai

 

[zerostao]

15 hours ago, C T said:

 

Evidently that dark cloud from the 12th century is still looming large here on TDB today. No surprise. Karma is indeed a wonderful thing. If more Taoist practitioners subscribe to enabling abuse, or are themselves abusers, this dark mass will just gather more darkness till it eventually seeps into the marrows of contemporary adherents. Seems like it already has to some extent. I sure hope TDB is not condoning any suggestions that abuse is a necessary form of teaching, because this is clearly a warped, deviant view. 

 

@zerostao @steve

The Daoist group I belong to existed way before the 12th century.

Our view is Following Dao erases the sharpness of all creatures, adjusts their light so all can live in this world peacefully. This way the eyes are not blinded and living in the world is easy.

 

Of course all types of sorcery exist under different names.

 

[zerostao]

9 minutes ago, Yueya said:

 

Of great relevance here is the fact that Sean, the site owner, has made it very clear that he wants Dao Bums to be a forum underpinned by kindness and compassion. To my observation, the upholding of these qualities by staff is the fundamental reason Dao Bums has survived as a vibrant place. Sure, robust discussion is welcome here because allowing respectful disagreement gives this forum its vitality. But the key word here is respectful. 

 

If Taoist Texts or anyone else wants to promote a form of Daoism or any other philosophy which goes against these values, or engage in the type of discussion characterised by trying to demean and belittle anyone who disagrees with them, then the site owner has made it clear that they are not welcome here. 

 

You've tagged @zerostao and @steve. I'll add @Trunk, @ilumairen and @dwai

 

the key word on this site under my watch is always respect/respectful. 

And it is pretty much as simple as that.
 

no report had been sent to the mods. If mod action is sought please file a report.

[senseless virtue]

6 hours ago, zerostao said:

always respect/respectful

 

7 hours ago, Yueya said:

a forum underpinned by kindness and compassion

 

Ooh, where do you find these places?

 

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic in my observation, but I find it unreasonably hopeful thinking that a sprawling spiritual discussion forum would be an actual place of respect, kindness, and compassion. People rarely join any Internet discussions in order to have their non-virtues uprooted, but to receive grooming or have verbal wrangling with others.

 

Nothing wrong with the ideals of peace and respect though. It just doesn't reflect our actual human condition very much.

 

EDIT: After re-reading the above, I think I should have been more careful with the words because they can give an impression as if manners or benevolent oversight are entirely lacking in forums such as TDB. This is not the case, so I would like to apologize for my unskillful wording.

Edited June 29, 2022 by senseless virtue

[dwai]

1 hour ago, senseless virtue said:

 

 

Ooh, where do you find these places?

 

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic in my observation, but I find it unreasonably hopeful thinking that a sprawling spiritual discussion forum would be an actual place of respect, kindness, and compassion. People rarely join any Internet discussions in order to have their non-virtues uprooted, but to receive grooming or have verbal wrangling with others.

 

Nothing wrong with the ideals of peace and respect though. It just doesn't reflect our actual human condition very much.

This forum is different. We are stubborn that way - we work our way through the actual human condition to get to a place of equilibrium. And then more human condition joins, and they either learn to respect the other bums and grow up, or they leave (some are given timeouts, others shown the door). 

1 hour ago, senseless virtue said:

 

EDIT: After re-reading the above, I think I should have been more careful with the words because they can give an impression as if manners or benevolent oversight are entirely lacking in forums such as TDB. This is not the case, so I would like to apologize for my unskillful wording.

Good recovery. See, progress already.  

[senseless virtue]

57 minutes ago, dwai said:

This forum is different. We are stubborn that way - we work our way through the actual human condition to get to a place of equilibrium. And then more human condition joins, and they either learn to respect the other bums and grow up, or they leave (some are given timeouts, others shown the door). 

 

What you refer to seems to be more in line with growing in tolerance and adapting to conformity. I don't see these necessarily leading to genuine respect, kindness, or compassion.

 

57 minutes ago, dwai said:

Good recovery.

 

I have to make such maneuvers because the benefit of doubt given to users on this forum varies quite a lot, and I'm not only referring to moderation. The variance sometimes feels rather unsettling actually, which brings us back on this current controversy about how people feel about the user "awaken".

 

57 minutes ago, dwai said:

See, progress already.

 

Whatever.

Edited June 29, 2022 by senseless virtue
a duplicate word

[鞏三孝]

19 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, because it is just a play for a public consumption, i am interested in the original linage materials

 

Yes, it's true, usually not much inner teachings will be in these plays, but there can be salacious stories about Lu Tung-pin, possibly for entertaining the audience... Or the monks? 

 

Quote

yes all of his works

some of it, he does not speak to me as much as Ma and Qiu do

 

Impressive accomplishment. For people who natively read Chinese this is terribly difficult, and who will usually read such things? To read complete works of Ma Tan-yang and Qiu Chang-chun for a foreigner proves thousands of hours of hard work. Easier if you skip 大丹直指 that I do not think is actually by Qiu Chang-chun...... And Awaken might agree it is written later by other people if she will read my post 

 

Since you did not read all of Wang Che's works, then it could be easy to focus on stories of his violence and rage. If he really lost control of himself in a rage, of course this is a problem, no matter if he is also meditation master. We should see him as a human, not a perfect being. So maybe he did make this mistake. Or maybe he was peaceful and clear inside, but acting angry, to teach his close apprentices in a way that was acceptable between masters and disciples in a different culture of 1000 years ago. Even if it is appropriate then for this man to roughly teach people who choose to follow him into the mountains in the Chin dynasty, it should not  but not appropriate for Awaken to be cursing strangers on a public webpage in 2022.

 

The stories of Wang Che being so harsh are recorded, he was also teaching softness and kindness. Look at his complete works on CText, it is easy to search for the key words of his teaching poems----

 

慈悲 compassion, the Way of Kuanyin, he wrote about it 16 times

仁德 virtue of benevolence, like Confucianism, he wrote about it 3 times

And in his note 第六論合道伴 says for friends we choose for learning Tao with: 不可相戀，相戀則繫其心，不可不戀，不戀則情相離。戀欲不戀，得其中道可矣。 This means Tao friends 'cannot love each other, because if they love each other will tie up their hearts. Cannot not love each other, because having no love will abandon each other emotionally. Love without falling in love, find the middle path of these, that is suitable.' So, if Awaken has chosen to come here to share Taoist learning with people, maybe she can think a bit of this before next time she tells people they are so terrible. That is the only thing people seem to ask for, not such a remarkable request actually, even kindergarten expects this requirement for children. 

 

For you, I hope your research of these ancient poems slowly opens your heart some more. Sorrowful to spend time so close to the words of Wang, Ma, and Qiu but not be transformed, isn't it?

Edited June 29, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

For you, I hope your research of these ancient poems slowly opens your heart some more. Sorrowful to spend time so close to the words of Wang, Ma, and Qiu but not be transformed, isn't it?

i dont know if you realised it but you mentioned  Awaken 3 times to me, long after I stopped talking about her. (just saying)

 

To answer your question: no, not sorrowful. sorrow is a choice which i do not make.

As to  the 3 saints  you mentioned to me, their goal was not to 'open their hearts' or to be 'transformed'  or  to be 'kind' or some other mundanity. Because mundanity is useless, it does not save from suffering. Their goal was to create dan, the elixir. I have the same goal thats why i am joyful not sorrowful. Since you addressed your thoughts on Wang to me I can only say that you can understand Wang only if you have the same goal as Wang. 上德不德，you know.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Taoist Texts

[dwai]

6 hours ago, senseless virtue said:

 

What you refer to seems to be more in line with growing in tolerance and adapting to conformity. I don't see these necessarily leading to genuine respect, kindness, or compassion.

then it seems you need to grow up a bit  

6 hours ago, senseless virtue said:

 

 

I have to make such maneuvers because the benefit of doubt given to users on this forum varies quite a lot, and I'm not only referring to moderation. The variance sometimes feels rather unsettling actually, which brings us back on this current controversy about how people feel about the user "awaken".

 

The variance is because of the same benefit of doubt until people repeatedly abuse the guidelines of respecting each other 

6 hours ago, senseless virtue said:

Whatever.

Now you are swinging back towards disrespectful behavior. 

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

How much tolerance can one expect for the user? All that was requested was that her  ongoing one person discussions be confined to a PPD...where they belong really. People have made an effort constantly with her. It is the same result every time

 

@Pak_Satrio screenshot was most certainly telling. It has well and truly gone beyond a joke

The mod team is looking at how we can solve this issue. There is already work underway toward this. I think you had communication from @ilumairen on your very specific thread on the same topic. It doesn’t help to act out on the mod team like @senseless virtue just did on this thread. 

[Sketch]

I find the display of women being hounded out of internet spaces unsettling. 

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

nothing "unsettling" about peoples feelings towards awakens behavior,

To be expected,  but unsettling. Perhaps not the Intent but certainly what is seen.

[zerostao]

any arm chair modding is sanctionable.

Let the mods handle it,

or else this could escalate to a few suspensions.

[鞏三孝]

22 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i dont know if you realised it but you mentioned  Awaken 3 times to me, long after I stopped talking about her. (just saying)

 

 

Ahhhhhh I see. I dont know if you realised it but we're only talking about Wang Che because you use his violence to justify the cruel language of Awaken. And you're only in this thread since you came in and told us she's the most advanced adept on this site. There is a thread running through this conversation, linking to strong statements you made two days earlier (just a reminder). Did you change your mind about what you said? I did not notice, but if mean to say that you did, how wonderful!

 

Quote

To answer your question: no, not sorrowful.

 

I think should say 'a pity' to be more clear

 

Quote

sorrow is a choice which i do not make.

 

Yet?

 

Quote

As to  the 3 saints  you mentioned to me, their goal was not to 'open their hearts' or to be 'transformed'  or  to be 'kind' or some other mundanity.

 

You make two errors

 

Actually Wang Che did teach to "open their hearts", even using this term.......You can search his poems for 開心 and 心開... Much of his meaning is a borrowing from Buddhism

 

Two, a path of 'opening their hearts or being kind'... This is not mundanity, it the way out of mundanity. If it was useless for "creating dan, the elixir"... Why do the saints you mention focus on it? Even your inspiration, Qiu Chang-chun calls this "foundation":

 

推窮三教，誘化群生，皆令上合天為。慕道修真，行住坐臥歸依。先須保身潔淨，內常懷、愍物慈悲。挫剛銳，乃初心作用，下手根基。

 

Such precious reminders.

 

Quote

Because mundanity is useless, it does not save from suffering.

 

I guess you know the sentence 出泥而不染, describing a lily or lotus flower to be a metaphor for realization in Buddhism。 Yes the flower is very pristine and above the mud. But it has to remain connected to the mud or it is going to wilt. Mundane is the root of transcending. Transcending is the hidden potential of mundane in bloom. Not two, not one...

 

 

 

____________________

 

Actually this is not the words of a man who is freeing himself of the mundane:

 

On 6/26/2022 at 2:50 PM, Taoist Texts said:

one of the reasons i am on this forum: to gape in silent awe at the depths of human delusion and ninkompoopery for a while. Then i giggle.

 

Lots of sticky mud around your feet. Luckily mundane is the best (and only) place we can start from 

 

 

 

 

For friends who can't read Chinese characters:

 

先須保身潔淨，內常懷、愍物慈悲。挫剛銳，乃初心作用，下手根基。

First you must keep yourself clean, internally always keeping in your heart to have sympathy and compassion. Soften {the parts of you which are} hard and sharp, this is the workings of beginners mind, and the foundation for getting started {in cultivation)

 

出泥而不染

Comes out of mud but hasn't any stains

Edited June 30, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Yet?

Ever

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Actually Wang Che did teach to "open their hearts", even using this term.......You can search his poems for 開心 and 心開

my dictionary says " 开心    開心    kāi xīn    to feel happy; to rejoice; to have a great time; to make fun of sb" Did Wang teach to have a great time and to make fun of somebody? Thats a taoism after my own heart!

 

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

You can search his poems for 開心 and 心開...  

wait is this how the chinese language works? you can switch any two characters around and still get the same meaning? thats nice.

 

1 hour ago, 鞏三孝 said:

being kind'... This is not mundanity, it the way out of mundanity. If it was useless for "creating dan, the elixir"... Why do the saints you mention focus on it? Even your inspiration, Qiu Chang-chun calls this "foundation":

 

窮三教，誘化群生，皆令上合天為。慕道修真，行住坐臥歸依。先須保身潔淨，內常懷、愍物c。挫剛銳，乃初心作用，下手根基。

 

you see 慈悲    慈悲    cí bēi    mercy in our context has a totally different meaning from the mundane milquetoast kindness. Here what it means really:

 

42 谁知大雨下了一夜，天亮后才放晴。众人走出庙门，见山下已是一片汪洋。再向西望，个个吓得目瞪口呆：王家大院的后山发生了山崩，半个山体将王家埋没了！至今华县百姓仍流传着：半截山下压着“金斗王”的故事。

https://www.qiuchuji.org/?type=comic

May be you can explain for friends who can't read Chinese characters how merciful and compassionate was Ancestor Qiu in this instance. I bet he opened his heart real good.

 

On 6/29/2022 at 12:50 PM, 鞏三孝 said:

Easier if you skip 大丹直指 that I do not think is actually by Qiu Chang-chun.

of course. but i did not skip it. i translated it in full. i think it is actually his;)

 

2 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Actually this is not the words of a man who is freeing himself of the mundane:

 

aww, why so serious? just like you suggested  i was just practicing my  开心    (    kāi xīn    to feel happy; to rejoice; to have a great time; to make fun of sb)

 

My kaixin is stronger than your kaixin!   

[鞏三孝]

38 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

my dictionary says " 开心    開心    kāi xīn    to feel happy; to rejoice; to have a great time; to make fun of sb" Did Wang teach to have a great time and to make fun of somebody? Thats a taoism after my own heart!

 

Seems to be Taiwan Ministry of Education Dictionary---MoeDict. It is excellent for Chinese, but its English translations are only so-so. Actually, none of the Chinese definitions for 開心 say "to make fun of somebody", unless you modify 開心 with a verb such as 拿 or 尋 in front (alone it will never mean this).

 

So you should use the Chinese definitions to learn from...... and check the sample sentences. 

 

1. 啟發智慧思想。北齊·顏之推·顏氏家訓·勉學：「夫所以讀書學問，本欲開心明目，利於行耳。」

2. 以誠心待人。後漢書·卷二十四·馬援傳：「且開心見誠，無所隱伏。」

3. 快樂、高興。紅樓夢·第二十三回：「左思右想，皆是寶玉頑煩了的，不能開心。」老殘遊記二編·第五回：「或者看看天地日月變的把戲，很夠開心的了。」

4. 取笑、開玩笑。如：「別尋他開心。」二刻拍案驚奇·卷十二：「豈知姊妹行中心路最多，一句開心，陡然疑變。」

 

#1 is "inspire wise thinking." #2. "use sincerity in heart to meet others“。 #3 is 'joy, happiness." 

#4 can mean to make a joke, but rarely used.

 

If you are interested in Tao, 1+2+3 are all related. #3 will come to you from doing #1 and #2.

 

Quote

wait is this how the chinese language works? you can switch any two characters around and still get the same meaning? thats nice.

 

In modern Chinese, sometimes. Like 道地 and 地道 are the same meaning

 

In ancient Chinese its is even more common. 開 is verb, to open, 心 is noun, heart. Grammar is extremely flexible (some say no real grammar rules...an exaggeration), so the order of noun and verb can change with the same meaning.

 

You don't know this? Now you do, you can try to read Wang's poems a second time.

 

Quote

you see 慈悲    慈悲    cí bēi    mercy in our context has a totally different meaning from the mundane milquetoast kindness. Here what it means really:

 

42 谁知大雨下了一夜，天亮后才放晴。众人走出庙门，见山下已是一片汪洋。再向西望，个个吓得目瞪口呆：王家大院的后山发生了山崩，半个山体将王家埋没了！至今华县百姓仍流传着：半截山下压着“金斗王”的故事。

https://www.qiuchuji.org/?type=comic

May be you can explain for friends who can't read Chinese characters how merciful and compassionate was Ancestor Qiu in this instance. I bet he opened his heart real good.

 

Huh? So there was a rainy day...?

 

Quote

of course. but i did not skip it. i translated it in full. i think it is actually his;)

 

Just to consider

http://www.zhexueshi.com/paper/5169

Of course you might be right, I have no proof 

 

Quote

aww, why so serious? just like you suggested  i was just practicing my  开心    (    kāi xīn    to feel happy; to rejoice; to have a great time; to make fun of sb)

 

Cruelty and spite in laughing at people is not 開心, it is 尋人開心...

 

I know that you know that Wang Che was not teaching this

 

But you dooooooooo like to play little games with people. Very little 以誠心待人, mostly wiggling in to say something provocative... asking for a response... then wiggling away to a new little game when the response puts light on how you are being silly. Cheeky cheeky 

Edited June 30, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[Taoist Texts]

8 minutes ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Huh? So there was a rainy day...?

Ahahahaah;) so you do not know that story. Well may be you should look it up. When you do you will understand why i am laughing.  

 

11 minutes ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Cruelty and spite in laughing at people is not 開心, it is 尋人開心...

 

I know that you know that Wang Che was not teaching this

he was not? are you sure? like cheeky-cheeky sure? 

[鞏三孝]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Ahahahaah;) so you do not know that story. Well may be you should look it up. When you do you will understand why i am laughing.  

 

Don't be too lazy to share, great scholar... Afraid if you translate it, might make an error? 

 

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

he was not? are you sure? like cheeky-cheeky sure? 

 

No cheek at all. And just as sure as I am sure you don't even mean or believe half of the things coming from your fingertips when you type

(No need for third eye for that )

[Taoist Texts]

59 minutes ago, 鞏三孝 said:

Cruelty and spite in laughing at people is not 開心, it is 尋人開心...

 

I know that you know that Wang Che was not teaching this

 

40 minutes ago, 鞏三孝 said:

No cheek at all. And just as sure as I am sure you don't even mean or believe half of the things coming from your fingertips when you type

(No need for third eye for that )

 

seems you could use a 3rd eye;) (hey 大哥 please do not take offence ok? i enjoy our chatting) 

[Master Logray]

4 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

 

Ahhhhhh I see. I dont know if you realised it but we're only talking about Wang Che because you use his violence to justify the cruel language of Awaken.

 

 

Who is Wang Che in Chinese?