Marquises and Kings (Chap 39)

[treebuffalo]

Whenever I see this phrase in the DDJ (or its equivalent, like Dukes and Princes), I interpret it as "powerful people" and "leaders." I don't think a case can be made that Lao Tsu was directly addressing these types of titled people. Which opens the door to other phrases and other interpretations. That's why the DDJ is so great, not because of what it doesn't mean, but of the form that it created for people fill in with their own experience. It opens definitions rather than closing them. 

[awaken]

中國古代只有貴族才有受教育的權利

貴族通常有頭銜

公侯伯子男

如果自稱『王』那就對周天子非常不禮貌了，表明了挑釁周天子

因為只有周天子才能稱王

但是春秋時代周天子勢力大衰

因此自稱『王』的貴族越來越多

 

In ancient China, only the nobility had the right to education

Nobles usually have titles

Gong hou Bo zi nan

If you call yourself "King", it would be very rude to Zhou Tianzi, which shows that he is provoking Zhou Tianzi.

Because only Zhou Tianzi can be king

However, in the Spring and Autumn Period, Emperor Zhou's power declined greatly.

Therefore, more and more nobles call themselves "kings"

 

 

[Miffymog]

Damo Mitchell says something like the 'people' tends to refer to your own thoughts, and that when the DDJ refers to them it's actually giving advice with how to deal with the restless mind. But it can also mean whatever's best for you 🙂

Edited June 10, 2022 by Miffymog

[treebuffalo]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:46 PM, awaken said:

In ancient China, only the nobility had the right to education

Nobles usually have titles

If you call yourself "King", it would be very rude to Zhou Tianzi, which shows that he is provoking Zhou Tianzi.

Because only Zhou Tianzi can be king

However, in the Spring and Autumn Period, Emperor Zhou's power declined greatly.

Therefore, more and more nobles call themselves "kings"

 

So i guess he was addressing specific people. But are passages like these trapped in historical context? And how much else of the DDJ is trapped? I assume universal applicability. Otherwise, why talk about Tao as a thing at all, other than in historical context? 

 

[Cobie]

On 10/06/2022 at 2:46 AM, awaken said:

… 公侯伯子男 ... Gong hou Bo zi nan …

5 titles: 

 

公、侯、伯、子、男 
gōng, hóu, bó, zi, nán 

duke, marquis, uncle, son, baron

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Cobie

[awaken]

On 2022/6/15 at 3:49 AM, treebuffalo said:

 

 

在那個時代，很多有學問的人講話，也是講給另外一群有學問的貴族聽的

因為只有貴族才有受教育的權利

所以你可以看到孔子被稱為『有教無類』的原因是因為孔子是第一個把學問交給平民的人

我們也知道孔子和老子是同一個時代的人，而且老子比孔子還要老

所以我們知道老子的時代，學問是僅限於貴族之間而已

 

In that era, many learned people spoke to another group of learned nobles.

Because only the nobles have the right to education

So you can see the reason why Confucius is called "educated without class" is because Confucius was the first person to give knowledge to the common people

We also know that Confucius and Laozi belonged to the same era, and Laozi was even older than Confucius

So we know that in Lao Tzu's time, knowledge was limited to the nobility.

 

道並非是老子第一個談論的，道可以說是很多人都會談論

因為道是從上古時代傳下來的，這個上古時代應該是夏朝

所以道不是老子第一個談論的

從那個時代的其他作者也談論道就可以知道

Tao is not the first thing Lao Tzu talked about, it can be said that many people will talk about Tao.

Because Tao was handed down from the ancient times, this ancient times should be the Xia Dynasty

So Tao is not the first thing Lao Tzu talks about

It can be known from other writers of that era who also talked about the Dao

 

跟老子同時代的思想家有七人，被稱為先秦七子

可以交叉閱讀其他六人的思想，應該可以看出道並非是老子發明的

 

There are seven thinkers at the same time as Laozi, known as the seven pre-Qin Zi

You can cross-read the thoughts of the other six, and then we can see that Tao was not invented by Lao Tzu

 

 

[treebuffalo]

Who are the other six? 

[awaken]

8 hours ago, treebuffalo said:

Who are the other six? 

 

https://baike.baidu.hk/item/先秦七子/935578

 

先秦七子指的是春秋戰國時百家爭鳴時期最有影響力的七個思想家，他們分別是儒家的代表人物孔子、孟子、荀子，墨家的代表人物墨子，道家的代表人物老子、莊子，法家的代表人物韓非子，這七個人都給後世留下了深遠的影響。

 

The seven pre-Qin thinkers refer to the seven most influential thinkers during the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period. They are the representatives of Confucianism, Confucius, Mencius, and Xunzi, the representatives of Mohism, the representatives of Taoism, Laozi, Zhuangzi, and the representatives of Legalism. The representative Han Feizi, these seven people have left a far-reaching influence on later generations.