Sadhguru on the cause of violence and its solution

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

7 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

So are you saying that the policeman should not patrol as it is unethical, or that we should not kill harmful viruses or bacteria in the body as it is unethical !

Policemen patrolling the streets and soldiers murdering innocent civilians are two completely different things, I hope you can see that. But maybe those innocent lives would have been saved if those soldiers simply directed their energy in the right way. 
 

 

9 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

Again, where are photographs of Sadhguru's fleet of cars and private jets and mansions !  I have not seen them .

 

 

 

Here is an article about some of his cars and bikes

 

https://www.mansworldindia.com/wheels/four-other-rides-from-sadhgurus-garage-that-can-easily-undertake-his-30000km-journey-from-the-uk-to-india/amp/

Another one of him saving the world in a Hummer H2, such an environmentally friendly car 

 

https://www.cartoq.com/jaggi-vasudev-sadhguru-off-roading-skills-hummer-h2/amp/

 

As for mansion and private jet I can’t find anything, I’ll give you that one. 

 

[Ajay0]

34 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Policemen patrolling the streets and soldiers murdering innocent civilians are two completely different things, I hope you can see that. But maybe those innocent lives would have been saved if those soldiers simply directed their energy in the right way. 
 

 

 There are corrupt policemen having ties with the mafia, and who guns down innocent civilians too , which is quite common these days.

 

And there are soldiers who fight for self-defence from aggressors, against soldiers alone and not civilians, abiding to their code of conduct.

 

Napoleon and Marshal Bernodette were noted for their chivalry in this regard, and Bernodette's reputation for chivalry was a factor which enabled him to be king of Sweden and Norway later on by popular approval.

 

Armies around the world have also assisted in natural disaster management and relief in their countries reducing loss of casualties and property in the process.

I am against war myself, and modern wars are mostly manipulated by corporate interests and sale of military weapons and securing energy routes.

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Here is an article about some of his cars and bikes

 

https://www.mansworldindia.com/wheels/four-other-rides-from-sadhgurus-garage-that-can-easily-undertake-his-30000km-journey-from-the-uk-to-india/amp/

 

 

 There are pictures of his motorbikes and car, with powerful engines and systems, necessary for his long travels, and which he himself drives without a chauffeur. These are part of his genuine requirements and needs.
 

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Another one of him saving the world in a Hummer H2, such an environmentally friendly car 

 

https://www.cartoq.com/jaggi-vasudev-sadhguru-off-roading-skills-hummer-h2/amp/

 

 

 

Yeah, but have you noticed that he is not driving in perfectly smooth roads but in rugged terrain and that too with an old 16 year old car.

 

I like these articles though and do keep posting such.  

 

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

2 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

 All these are well and good in older times.

 

But I would like to ask who is the lineage master who verified that the Buddha is fit to teach, notwithstanding his claims of enlightenment or Nirvana !

 

The Buddha Gautama had two main teachers, Arada Kalama and Udraka Ramaputra, both of whom verified his attainments and asked him to teach.

[Ajay0]

7 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

The Buddha Gautama had two main teachers, Arada Kalama and Udraka Ramaputra, both of whom verified his attainments and asked him to teach.

 

 Arada Kalama and Udarka Ramaputra were teachers of Siddhartha who acknowledged his ability as a practitioner and asked him to lead their community alongside them but Siddhartha preferred to move on. This was before his enlightenment.

 

They had not verified his enlightened state, and Uddaka Ramaputta had even died by then.

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

The Buddha did not enter nibbana until his death. 

 

The point is that what he taught was largely from an existing tradition. The foundational practice of samatha for instance, predates the Buddha by around two thousand years.

 

If you are really comparing Jaggi Vasudev (sadhguru) to the Buddha, then at least please tell me where he learned the practice of having someone repeatedly whispering into your headphones the phrase: 'you are not the body, not even the mind'.

 

 

[Ajay0]

5 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

The Buddha did not enter nibbana until his death. 

 

 

The Buddha attained Nirvana or enlightenment when he was 35 years old.   It was his enlightenment that provided the basis of his teachings later on. He attained Parinirvana when he relinquished his body at age of 80.

 

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The point is that what he taught was largely from an existing tradition. The foundational practice of samatha for instance, predates the Buddha by around two thousand years.

 

 

Much of what he taught predated from the earlier tradition but he also varied from it by his rejection of the Vedas and other theological differences. This created a lot of opposition to him from Brahminism during those times.

 

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If you are really comparing Jaggi Vasudev (sadhguru) to the Buddha, then at least please tell me where he learned the practice of having someone repeatedly whispering into your headphones the phrase: 'you are not the body, not even the mind'.

 

 

Buddha lived 2500 years back in ancient India, and was also a sannyasin who took alms from householders .

 

Sadhguru is a householder himself who attained enlightenment.

 

I am not comparing Buddha with Sadhguru, but only underlining the fact that both broke with conventional methods and traditions in their times.

 

2500 years back, Indian society was very simple and uncomplicated. Buddha was able to deliver the flower sutra silently with a flower , but if he does the same in modern times, he would be accused of being cryptic.

 

Sadhguru uses technology available in modern times for his purposes including instruction and does not despise them.

[Vajra Fist]

25 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

Sadhguru is a householder himself who attained enlightenment.

 

Thanks for the information. I'm assuming by enlightenment you mean cessation and the final, rarified state of an arahat.

 

Could you let me know which tradition he practiced within, how many years of training he underwent and with which teachers?

[C T]

Among contemporary Indian gurus, Jaggi Vasudev is actually quite sound, and enough of his discourses have intellectual value, imo. Also, the humanitarian arm of his organization, I heard, is doing a lot of good for certain segments of the underprivileged in India. Compared to godman Nithyananda, he's way more sane and cohesive. But jury's still out wrt his enlightenment status. 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by C T

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Sadhguru is a householder himself who attained enlightenment.

 

Awakened perhaps, I don’t buy enlightenment at least by my standards.

[dwai]

24 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Awakened perhaps, I don’t buy enlightenment at least by my standards.

I can tell that he is powerful spiritually - in terms of transmission and it’s power to transform. He is very highly regarded by seasoned people I know. 
 

Usually those who dislike him are either those who aren’t able to resonate with what he says (mostly good stuff), or those who are threatened by him. He has consecrated some really powerful artifacts such as the dhyanalinga in his main facility in coimbatore (in India). The dhyanalinga makes even novices be able to enter deep stillness and meditate. A friend of mine who is very advanced told me he went there to sit for 5 mins and 10 hrs later they had to carry him out because he’d entered samadhi as soon as sat down in front of it. 
 

 

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Usually those who dislike him are either those who aren’t able to resonate with what he says

 

Let's see.

He charges an extortionate amount for in person courses. For instance, looking on the Isha site, a three day retreat with him in June costs INR 7,93,000 ($9,400). And yet the employees of the Isha retreat centre are reportedly all volunteers.

He has no spiritual training, but somehow has become enlightened - a feat that every other advanced spiritual practitioner in history with similar attainment has arrived at only after a lifetime of practice.

This is because he claims he is a divine avatar.

"I am 50% Shiva, who entered into me and has enlightened me on yoga and such. I don’t see a need for learning Vedas/Bhagavad Gita”.

His talks are not at all profound, they're rehashed pop spiritualism, although he talks as though he's dropping pearls of wisdom. For instance:

"Too many people are hungry not because there is dearth of food. It is because there is dearth of love and care in human hearts."

"Love is your quality. Love is not what you do. Love is what you are."

The trouble with Sadhguru is that he has become a cultural export, so will always be defended on the basis of nationalism.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Let's see.

He charges an extortionate amount for in person courses. For instance, looking on the Isha site, a three day retreat with him in June costs INR 7,93,000 ($9,400). And yet the employees of the Isha retreat centre are reportedly all volunteers.
 

I think it depends on what is being taught. The foundational stuff is not very expensive. Also, what they collect from paying students is used to fund many of their charitable initiatives. Those who can afford, should do so. If it doesn’t transform them,  they’ll be wiser from it and not spend the money next time.

 

Volunteer work is often treated as a spiritual practice (selfless service or nishkama karma). How is one to know if some of the volunteers are being coerced? Maybe they are not — maybe they truly subscribe to the vision of the org they’re part of and volunteer? 

10 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

He has no spiritual training, but somehow has become enlightened - a feat that every other advanced spiritual practitioner in history with similar attainment has arrived at only after a lifetime of practice.

That is murky for sure. But his capabilities are empirically verifiable. In a culture (Hindu ie) where karma plays a huge role, such Janma-Siddhas (born with siddhis) are not unusual - the entire avadhuta tradition is full of such individuals. Fwiw, Your criticism is neither new, nor does it bring any new perspective to the front.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

This is because he claims he is a divine avatar.

"I am 50% Shiva, who entered into me and has enlightened me on yoga and such. I don’t see a need for learning Vedas/Bhagavad Gita”.

His talks are not at all profound, they're rehashed pop spiritualism, although he talks as though he's dropping pearls of wisdom. For instance:

"Too many people are hungry not because there is dearth of food. It is because there is dearth of love and care in human hearts."

"Love is your quality. Love is not what you do. Love is what you are."

The trouble with Sadhguru is that he has become a cultural export, so will always be defended on the basis of nationalism.

one of the reasons he is vilified is because he poses a huge threat to the spread of abrahamic religions. Gurus such as Sadhguru, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Amma act as a layer of firewall protection for Indic civilization/culture. That is apart from the fact that their teachings and methods are easily usable and very useful. 

[Shadao]

On 20/06/2022 at 7:29 PM, dwai said:

one of the reasons he is vilified is because he poses a huge threat to the spread of abrahamic religions.

But Abrahamic religions are already spread enough, how come they would feel "threatened"?

 

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, Shadao said:

But Abrahamic religions are already spread enough, how come they would feel "threatened"?

 

There is a long and sordid history of expansion. India is the last bastion of “pagans” and there are many concerted efforts to convert, such as the Joshua project, etc. 

[silent thunder]

Cause of violence?

Life.  (though the distinctions among humans is myriad, for me it's simple.  Life is violent at its core.  It's unavoidable.)

Yet life is the cause of the avoidable violence as well... it's just hardwired into the aggregates of life on earth as we experience it.

 

Yet the avoidable violence of The J Group and the group/hive mind violence is the most disturbing to me.

You mentioning them sends shivers down my spine @dwai

The mindset of J group is as insidious as it gets...  (justified, obligated)

Violence of mind and body.  Whatever it takes...

 

The story of expansion overall typifies and encompasses the tip of the spear of human depravity to me.  It is the manifestation of intended, organized and willful brutality, horror and imperialism run amok.  Once begun, no actions are disallowed in carrying out what is justified by divine right... 

 

Few encounters raise my radar more than encountering a person who is abiding in the 'justified' mindset.  I encountered it regularly as a child given the area I lived in was rife with religious fundamentalists (evangelical christians). 

 

Under the sense of being Justified, any actions (no matter how horrific) become not only permissable, but in the deepest mindsets, the actions become an obligation.  To not act is equal to sin.  Violent conversion against the non compliant is preferrable to the sin of allowing them to continue to live 'in a state of sin'.

 

Violence whether in pursuit of life or in defense of it, seems foundational to the fabric of manifest life on earth though. 

Life lives by killing other life.  Aside from light absorbing proto=life that absorbs light, all life feeds on other life.

 

Everything eats everything.  My son likes to remind folks that there are tons of microbes on veggies and if you ever read the ingredient list of potting soil that we grow all our veggies in... well, suffice to say, soil is not vegan.  Life feeding on life is violent.  

 

Yet, semantically, the violence we talk of here I suspect is the 'voluntary type', the kind that is human generated and not required for living. And among this type of violence we are split as humans.  Some violence we condemn, and some we praise and worship.

 

We punish some murders while awarding medals for others...  We condone and worship and praise certain violence daily in every form of media.  (our soldier heroes!  the brave citizens who stop crimes)  The rationalization is instantaneous (as it is considered justified, so therefor codified into conditioned thinking modes) and comes with zero guilt, nay even praise and adoration.  And it's not wrong to do so.  I support violence in a myriad of situations and have engaged in it on several occasions. 

 

Culturally and personally, we all I expect have areas where we will feel not only justified, but obligated to act violently.  I've encountered these limits in my life.  When violence arises in me though it does not seem voluntary, it arises wu wei, tzujan... there is no mulling it over...  I recall watching my older cousins climb in a truck and heading over to straighten out their sister's new husband, who'd beat her during an argument.  I recal being grateful that she had her brothers to protect her.

 

Witnessing assaults on the weak, defense of my life, or those around me, muggings, rapes, molestations, lynchings... any of this exemplifies where my own justified violent minset arises and I discover (sometimes after the fact) that i've engaged in 'whatever it takes' to stop something abhorrent to me from happening in my presence.

 

The cause of violence? 

is Life.

Edited June 24, 2022 by silent thunder

[doc benway]

On 6/20/2022 at 4:40 PM, dwai said:

Usually those who dislike him are either those who aren’t able to resonate with what he says (mostly good stuff), or those who are threatened by him.

 

I can’t say I dislike him and I agree that he usually says the right things but I do get a weird, phony vibe from him. I trust my intuition when it comes to teachers and it usually guides me well…

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I can’t say I dislike him and I agree that he usually says the right things but I do get a weird, phony vibe from him. I trust my intuition when it comes to teachers and it usually guides me well…

Is he gimmicky at times? sure. But he’s usually talking to people with tremendously short attention spans,  who need such gimmicks to be drawn into the wisdom path. I’m not defending him but I’ve got enough reliable testimonies on his caliber - it is pretty high. FWIW there’s plenty he says that I disagree with, and at one point he used to irritate the heck out of me as well 😜

Edited June 24, 2022 by dwai

[Ajay0]

7 hours ago, steve said:

 

I can’t say I dislike him and I agree that he usually says the right things but I do get a weird, phony vibe from him. I trust my intuition when it comes to teachers and it usually guides me well…

 

 With his dark looks and turban, Sadhguru does look unconventional.

 

Swami Vivekananda in the nineteenth century had his turban pulled from behind him, while he was walking in a street in America. When Vivekananda asked the culprit for an explanation, the man was embarrassed and asked Vivekananda why he dressed that way !

 

A barber also refused to give his services to Vivekananda back then on account of his dark skin.

 

On the backdrop of 9/11, many Sikhs were targetted and subjected to hate crimes on account of their turban.

 

Sadhguru is however quite popular in Arab and Islamic countries though, and have posed with high ranking officials and people over there. Perhaps it is a cultural similarity and dissimilarity thing that is creating the philias and phobias !

 

[C T]

Can we go beyond violence? Ponders J Krishnamurti. "If we know how to look at violence, not only outwardly in society - the wars, riots, national antagonisms and class conflicts - but also in ourselves, perhaps we shall be able to go beyond it." (from his work, Freedom from the Known). 

 

In some ways, Sadhguru's style and substance reminds me as if he's a lighter version of JK. As Dwai said, appeals to those with shorter attention span. Imo, JK is much more substantial. Comparatively, his words promote deeper contemplations. 

 

Freedom from the Known was the first of his works that I picked up and read back like maybe 2 decades and a bit. A present from someone I met and chatted with on a 2 hour train ride. First the conversation, and then the book, left a deep enough impression. In more ways than one, served as an indelible precursor to my journey into Tibetan Buddhism. 

 

 

[doc benway]

At the risk of sounding defensive, I’ll share that I feel a very deep connection with Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello, both masters from India that form a large part of my spiritual foundation. Another important teacher with whom I’m very close is Chinese and my root guru was born in India of Tibetan descent. I’m visiting with him today, yay! I live and work in a town that is 60% African, 20% European, 7% Asian, and 7% Latinx.

 

While they may bother some people, the skin color and turban of Sadhguru do not disturb me. His $25 million estate, obscenely large and unnecessary palace, his fleet of expensive cars, and claims of divine birth and enlightenment, along with his cheesy and smarmy manner do. His vibe for me is a bit like Osho minus the drug addiction although Osho’s wisdom for me seemed to run a bit deeper. Full disclosure, I learned a lot from Osho’s talks.

 

Racism and xenophobia exist. I’m not afraid to admit I’ve experienced it from both sides. Something I have looked at and worked with in myself over time. Christian nationalism, fundamentalism and prosthelytization are a real threat, especially now in the US. None of that is the basis for my feelings about Sadhguru.

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cobie

[dwai]

7 hours ago, steve said:

At the risk of sounding defensive, I’ll share that I feel a very deep connection with Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello, both masters from India that form a large part of my spiritual foundation. Another important teacher with whom I’m very close is Chinese and my root guru was born in India of Tibetan descent. I’m visiting with him today, yay! I live and work in a town that is 60% African, 20% European, 7% Asian, and 7% Latinx.

Wow, nice! Please convey my regards to your teacher. 🙏🏾🙇🏻

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While they may bother some people, the skin color and turban of Sadhguru do not disturb me. His $25 million estate, obscenely large and unnecessary palace, his fleet of expensive cars, and claims of divine birth and enlightenment, along with his cheesy and smarmy manner do. His vibe for me is a bit like Osho minus the drug addiction although Osho’s wisdom for me seemed to run a bit deeper. Full disclosure, I learned a lot from Osho’s talks.

I find the facts about his “estate” really questionable. Where are these numbers coming from? Also he doesn’t have a fleet of cars or mansions - he does have a couple of high end motorbikes and he does most of his traveling riding motorbikes. His foundation has large properties in coimbatore india and in McMinnville Tennessee. But it is a non-profit org. From what I gather, he spends most of his time either traveling the world to raise awareness on social or ecological issues, or in his ashram teaching. I don’t have a problem that his foundation has lot of money - for the kind of work they do, they need money and infrastructural support. 
 

BTW he is from my hometown, and we’ve seen him when we were kids, thought I’ve never interacted with him personally (we lived in adjacent neighborhoods) — and he was just another dude. My friend’s family and his were very close and my friend referred to him as “jaggi uncle”, a bit eccentric but a good guy.
 

My wife took a course in person with him and it has had a very powerful effect on her. My sister-in-law is also a disciple and is co-writing a book with him. 
 

Look, he is a celebrity, and with that comes the usual share of negative press and speculation. I’ve heard some absolutely cockamamie stories about his supposed “villainy” that are so ludicrous that no one in their right mind would believe them. 

 

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Racism and xenophobia exist. I’m not afraid to admit I’ve experienced it from both sides. Something I have looked at and worked with in myself over time. Christian nationalism, fundamentalism and prosthelytization are a real threat, especially now in the US. None of that is the basis for my feelings about Sadhguru.

FWIW, I didn’t think for a moment that you are capable of xenophobia or racism. What I find most

cringeworthy about him (and most other public spiritual teachers) is the over-zealous adulation his followers exhibit and their cult-like mentality. I avoid such teachers, but they do play a huge role in bringing people to the spiritual path. I don’t think such things are necessarily new - I’m sure many of the famous teachers of the older past had similar following as well as detractors. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by dwai

[dwai]

Iirc there was a member @Lucky7Strikes who had become a Sadhguru student and has very positive and uplifting results as a result thereof. 

[doc benway]

Good to hear all the positive things.

I’ve said enough negative things and really know little to nothing about Sadhguru. I pray he benefits everyone he touches!

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Interesting article

 

 

 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgy8bw/climate-yoga-celebrity-sadhguru-india-will-smith-trevor-noah?utm_source=vice_facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3LOP5NVEfz9QZozVE0Cmrl3nqmOnt-N9jrIE5KkZ0sW4ajApM3X5mVci8&fs=e&s=cl