Ars longa, vita brevis

[Lidolon]

Coming from a very analytical but open mindset (I’m a mathematician by training, after all, and in maths any set of axioms is game, provided they are coherent), I’m both extremely curious and slightly baffled about the energetic phenomena that define qigong, neigong, neidan, etc.

I’m curious to see if I can experience them, and  then if they can be useful, as it is said they are, for health, longevity and cultivation of the mind (I’ve no interest whatsoever in martial arts). 

However, from what I understand, a consistent daily practice of many years is needed, and many many techniques, schools, teachers are out there. I’ve really no problem to commit - as a personal experiment of sorts - to some method, even for a few years (the potential benefits make this some kind of lesser Pascal’s wager); however it would be very disagreeable if I were to devote so much time to  some broken, half-authentic, ineffective-because-diluted system.

 

So here my problem and question. Given I know no teacher close at hands (any suggestions for a real, legitimate teacher in Italy?), which serious options for distance learning are there? I’m seriously baffled by the number of options and uncertainty about them. For example, after scanning a bit this forum, I’ve found, to give a few examples:

 

• Flying Phoenix. This seems to give quick experiential results according to practitioners, so it could be a good option to experiment, but at the same time it seems conceptually quite different from any other system and potentially limited in its ambitions. So a potentially nice and pleasant dead-end?
• Damo Mitchell’s Academy. Very professional looking videos, convincing speeches and the various books scratching my need for theory, but let’s be serious: I have no experimental or experiential knowledge of neigong, so how do I know it’s not a pile of pataphysics? … and no, the body’s center of mass is not in the chest. So a potentially well produced MacNeigong?
• Nathan Brine’s book/course. He is a student of Wang Liping, who should be a Master with a great pedigree; Liping’s system seems ambitious, transformative, painful and almost impossible even to begin without preparation and a teacher’s assistance (maybe the arrival point of the first book by Brine could be done with distance learning. Maybe). So a potentially hard enough method not to be falsifiable, as it is structurally unfeasible (and painful)?

 

I want to say this clearly: I mean no disrespect to Dunn, Mitchell, Brine and Wang. I took them as example because I actually found what little I’ve read about their methods intriguing and to show that for an ignorant noob like me even widely appreciated methods are difficult to classify and potentially suspicious.

 

So, which system would you suggest me, a complete beginner who wants to seriously experience and develop internal cultivation to improve health, longevity and the mind, and, most importantly (since the forum is already full of such recommendations), why would you suggest that specific system?

(please, don’t just tell me “find a good teacher in person and just trust him”. As I said I know no good teacher close to me and while I can find time to practice, because of family obligations I’m not able at the moment to travel long distance to get to some Master or partecipate in a retreat)

[Gerard]

1. Ba Gua Quan/Zhang hands down and without a doubt. It's one of the traditional Chinese Internal Martial/Energetic Arts. 

 

2. Buddhist Vipassana is good too but very slow and works better in a retreat environment due to the many hours a day involved in this system.

 

Italy?

 

I found this school:

 

https://www.baguazhang.it/bagua-benessere/

 

 

+ a lifetime journey of work on YOURSELF.

 

Lots of commitment, discipline and determination. 

 

 

 

[Miffymog]

In my head I came up with a really, really long answer to your question. But I was then able to simplify it to something very short.

 

Just try them out.

 

The initial outlay isn't actually too much to 'dip your toe in the water', and it's the only real way to find one that resonates with you.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Miffymog said:

In my head I came up with a really, really long answer to your question. But I was then able to simplify it to something very short.

 

Just try them out.

 

The initial outlay isn't actually too much to 'dip your toe in the water', and it's the only real way to find one that resonates with you.

This is the best advice, you won’t know what’s good unless you try for yourself. 
 

I would also add Authentic Neigong by Rudi to your list of things to try

 

https://authenticneigong.com/

 

You can read more about it here:

 

Personally I do Flying Phoenix and Authentic Neigong, it’s good for complete beginners like I was when I started.

[Cheshire Cat]

You might want to start with something backed up with some "science" at the beginning. 

There should be some clinical evidences of the benefits of Zhan Zhuang if you're willing to do some research. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Cheshire Cat
typo

[Shadow_self]

On 14/06/2022 at 8:52 PM, Lidolon said:

Coming from a very analytical but open mindset (I’m a mathematician by training, after all, and in maths any set of axioms is game, provided they are coherent), I’m both extremely curious and slightly baffled about the energetic phenomena that define qigong, neigong, neidan, etc.

I’m curious to see if I can experience them, and  then if they can be useful, as it is said they are, for health, longevity and cultivation of the mind (I’ve no interest whatsoever in martial arts). 

However, from what I understand, a consistent daily practice of many years is needed, and many many techniques, schools, teachers are out there. I’ve really no problem to commit - as a personal experiment of sorts - to some method, even for a few years (the potential benefits make this some kind of lesser Pascal’s wager); however it would be very disagreeable if I were to devote so much time to  some broken, half-authentic, ineffective-because-diluted system.

 

So here my problem and question. Given I know no teacher close at hands (any suggestions for a real, legitimate teacher in Italy?), which serious options for distance learning are there? I’m seriously baffled by the number of options and uncertainty about them. For example, after scanning a bit this forum, I’ve found, to give a few examples:

 

• Flying Phoenix. This seems to give quick experiential results according to practitioners, so it could be a good option to experiment, but at the same time it seems conceptually quite different from any other system and potentially limited in its ambitions. So a potentially nice and pleasant dead-end?
• Damo Mitchell’s Academy. Very professional looking videos, convincing speeches and the various books scratching my need for theory, but let’s be serious: I have no experimental or experiential knowledge of neigong, so how do I know it’s not a pile of pataphysics? … and no, the body’s center of mass is not in the chest. So a potentially well produced MacNeigong?
• Nathan Brine’s book/course. He is a student of Wang Liping, who should be a Master with a great pedigree; Liping’s system seems ambitious, transformative, painful and almost impossible even to begin without preparation and a teacher’s assistance (maybe the arrival point of the first book by Brine could be done with distance learning. Maybe). So a potentially hard enough method not to be falsifiable, as it is structurally unfeasible (and painful)?

 

I want to say this clearly: I mean no disrespect to Dunn, Mitchell, Brine and Wang. I took them as example because I actually found what little I’ve read about their methods intriguing and to show that for an ignorant noob like me even widely appreciated methods are difficult to classify and potentially suspicious.

 

So, which system would you suggest me, a complete beginner who wants to seriously experience and develop internal cultivation to improve health, longevity and the mind, and, most importantly (since the forum is already full of such recommendations), why would you suggest that specific system?

(please, don’t just tell me “find a good teacher in person and just trust him”. As I said I know no good teacher close to me and while I can find time to practice, because of family obligations I’m not able at the moment to travel long distance to get to some Master or partecipate in a retreat)

 

I've a suggestion for you

 

Drop your reservations

Let go of the scientific mindset (It is only going to hinder you. Honestly)

Enjoy they experience..

 

Also the center of gravity in males is held higher up towards the chest...in women it is lower.

 

In Damos text I believe center of mass and center of gravity are used once or twice in an interchangeable fashion (though this isn't correct , what he is referring to is correct).

 

I know this because I've spent a number of years working in academia, particularly human experimentation (behavioral neuroscience and so forth) and one area I had training in early on was biomechanical postural control measures

 

So my recommendation would be Damo's material, but I've also read good things about Terry Dunn if you would prefer that alternative. Id avoid Nathan Brine until you have a few years...What he teaches is real stuff...but without a foundation you'll just be spinning your wheels (Damos stuff teaches foundation work)  

Edited June 16, 2022 by Shadow_self

[awaken]

我分享一下佛陀的經驗

 

佛陀找了兩位老師，這兩位老師教的方法，他都練到了

 

但是他覺得都不對勁

 

最後他放棄了老師教的方法

 

自己一個人坐在路邊，從流汗開始練起

 

有一份非常古老的文件，就敘述了佛陀在路邊流汗的細節

 

我自己的經驗，我也曾經找過了好幾位老師

 

也跟著老師教的方法練

最後我竟然也走上了跟佛陀一樣的道路

我放棄了所有的方法

才找到佛陀所說的那條路

 

對你的建議是，你可以找很多不同的老師，練很多不同的方法

但是你心裡要有一個保留

你要知道什麼是最終你要的

 

 

I share the experience of the Buddha

The Buddha found two teachers, and he practiced the methods taught by the two teachers.

But he doesn't feel right

 

In the end he gave up the method taught by the teacher

Sitting alone on the side of the road, starting from sweating

There is a very old document that details the Buddha sweating on the side of the road

 

In my own experience, I have also found several teachers

Follow the method taught by the teachers

 

In the end, I even took the same path as the Buddha.

I gave up all methods

then I found the way the Buddha said

 

 

My advice to you is that you can find a lot of different teachers and practice a lot of different methods

But you have to have a reservation in your heart

You have to know what is ultimately what you want

 

 

三十幾年前，我什麼都不懂的時候，我有一個想法

我多學一些，從這些當中找到共同重點，那就是非常重要的點

然後再看看這些重要的點，哪個老師可以講得更清楚

我就繼續深入下去

隨著我的學習越來越深入

我的判斷能力也越來越清楚

 

 

Thirty years ago, when I knew nothing, I had an idea

I learn more and then I find common ground from these
Those commonalities are the very important points

Then look at these points, which teacher can explain more clearly

I'll keep going

As I learn more and more

the ability of My judgment is getting clearer

 

 

the more I know and proved in cultivation, the better teacher I can find

 

In the end, it is enough for me to learn from the ancients through the scriptures

 

Because I start to cultivate since I was very young.

Therefore I don't care about health then.

I only care about the cultivation of the mind and the secret of the universe.

 

Even later, I practiced spontaneous gong as qigong
But that's also because I have to train my body
to  enter deeper samadhi

So your goals will determine who your teacher is

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by awaken

[Gerard]

Less Buddha, less big words (Damo Mitchell), less training material in written form and MORE of this;

 

Hands and feet on the deck and sweat your pants off!

 

I like He Jing Han's approach of opening the entire joint system of the human body. He has a YT channel and all his videos are free. He teaches Ba Gua Quan in Taipei. 

 

My teacher taught me the traditional way:

 

Circle walking every Saturday morning in the park working my ass off on the Eight Mother Palms in order to bring a new human out of the mess I was when I arrived at his first class.

 

Less talk and more hard work keeping the practice simple and sticking to the basics.

 

 

[Iskote]

On 6/14/2022 at 1:52 PM, Lidolon said:

Coming from a very analytical but open mindset (I’m a mathematician by training, after all, and in maths any set of axioms is game, provided they are coherent), I’m both extremely curious and slightly baffled about the energetic phenomena that define qigong, neigong, neidan, etc.

I’m curious to see if I can experience them, and  then if they can be useful, as it is said they are, for health, longevity and cultivation of the mind (I’ve no interest whatsoever in martial arts). 

 

 

 Here is one very simple qigong practice which I believe is safe to practice at home without a teacher, if practiced as described. 

Here is a link to a post I made in the past describing the wu ji zhan zhuang practice

It is the most simple and effective qigong practice which I have personally experienced. 

You should begin to feel effects of qi developing within a few months, but everyone is different. 

If you are interested, click on the link below which states "Iskote replied to a topic" to see the description of the practice. 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Iskote

[Lidolon]

On 16/06/2022 at 12:46 PM, Shadow_self said:

Drop your reservations

Let go of the scientific mindset (It is only going to hinder you. Honestly)

 

I’m not so sure. 

But of course it depends on the definition of “scientific mindset” we give. If our definition is not to believe in things outside of what current scientific theories imply, it would just be a silly mindset (more “scientism” than “science”); but that’s just a parody. Real science has nothing to do with a priori belief in phenomena and everything to do with prediction of events: a theory gives you a good guess about what to expect given past (collective) experience. 

In the end it is just a belief in the following statement: “If I have the same causes I will have the same effects; and if that’s not what I observe it’s because there are more causes at work, which I have not yet identified”.

 

Thanks to everybody who answered. I will just arm myself with patience and try a few methods to see if they produce interesting effects. I will report my results in a few months, and in the meantime I will be on the lookout for masters to learn the traditional way, since the consensus seems to be that a true master is more important than the technique.

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, Lidolon said:

 

I’m not so sure. 

But of course it depends on the definition of “scientific mindset” we give. If our definition is not to believe in things outside of what current scientific theories imply, it would just be a silly mindset (more “scientism” than “science”); but that’s just a parody. Real science has nothing to do with a priori belief in phenomena and everything to do with prediction of events: a theory gives you a good guess about what to expect given past (collective) experience. 

In the end it is just a belief in the following statement: “If I have the same causes I will have the same effects; and if that’s not what I observe it’s because there are more causes at work, which I have not yet identified”.

I'm aware of the distinction. I've been in the field a while  

 

Interestingly, the observation of cause and effect existed long before science as we know it emerged. Scientism as you mentioned, would be the single biggest hindrance to this type of thing. Constantly trying to apply western logic to eastern frameworks...is a recipe for disaster. Moreover, try to go into this without forming any hypotheses.You will encounter things totally foreign to what we consider "real" and receptivity is key.

 

But my point goes a but deeper...While the energetic aspect of the arts are quite tangible some of what you will experience on the spiritual side of things...not so much. With that in mind, one of the key aspects of all traditions is to detach from the sense faculties. Considering that science as we know it is pretty much defunct without the sense faculties, you can see where these two are at odds

 

Enjoy the journey friend (and try not to get freaked out when the spontaneous movement starts :D) 

[terry]

aloha,

 

   Advice on following a method.

 

   Just sit.

 

   Sit with no expectations, as a matter of emotional hygiene. Try 15 minutes a day until you are comfortable. A half hour twice a day is probably optimal. 

 

   You can overdo it, easily, like people who ride bikes and walk and swim for their health, and end up doing ironmans and destroying their health and lives obsessing with personal bests.

 

   Simply emptying your mind without excessive effort every day as a routine is the sweet spot. The rest is little more than doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with your lord.

 

terry