Morality

[helpfuldemon]

I've given up thinking there is any Divine Law, or Divine morality, or human morality.  I think people just do what they want and if you don't like it, do something about it.  I think logically when we are harmed we get upset and we think there is a moral law about it, but I no longer believe in the providence of man or God.  I think that we expect civility but the truth is that this rule is easily broken, and we try to govern ourselves with rules that protect us, but in the grand scheme, none of it matters; we are left to our own devices to protect ourselves.  That is why I was given over to Thelema, it is God's Will that I see this.  Do What Thou Wilt.

[Lairg]

4 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I was given over

 

Personally I do not give myself over to a cause/belief/philosophy.    It seems that my identity is -  before all those ever existed.

 

Your situation may differ.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Lairg

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I've given up thinking there is any Divine Law, or Divine morality, or human morality.  I think people just do what they want and if you don't like it, do something about it.  I think logically when we are harmed we get upset and we think there is a moral law about it, but I no longer believe in the providence of man or God.  I think that we expect civility but the truth is that this rule is easily broken, and we try to govern ourselves with rules that protect us, but in the grand scheme, none of it matters; we are left to our own devices to protect ourselves.  That is why I was given over to Thelema, it is God's Will that I see this.  Do What Thou Wilt.

 

 

But you have 'your own morality'  ... dont you  - your own 'code of honour' for yourself ?

 

I agree with you about 'Divine Law / Morality '  it seems it is a projection of a human desire and need - so much so, that some claim its origin 'divine' . 

 

The problem seems to  come from when we expect / want / need  'external forces' to  comply with what we conceive as moral .

 

Most individuals are   well behaved , moral little 'justifiers'  - in their own world .... bunch them together  ( ie.  'humanity' )  - look out ! As a group we are easily capable of atrocity - mostly to each other .

[helpfuldemon]

We live in an animal world.  Like animals, we kill, we love, we fight.  We have higher reasoning and more developed language, but we are still just animals.  Like animals, we kill for sport and food.  I focus on killing because that is the primary moral truth that holds in most people's minds.  But yet, we kill, sometimes for pleasure or anger.  I don't think this is frowned upon in the Divine God's realm of thinking.  We probably just die when we die and there is no after place for us.  Everything is what it is til it's gone, and its mostly meaningless unless you hold value to something.  I wonder what the world would be like if we weren't told there is a Heaven, or that God has a morality?  Would it be better?  I feel that it would be more dangerous.  I think there would be more nihilism and oppression.  The strong would dominate the weak and life would hold less value to us.  

[wandelaar]

Being told that there is a Heaven, or that God has a morality doesn't prove anything. A truly moral person doesn't follow anyone's orders (whether of a man or God), but acts on the basis of an inner conscience. Where that conscience is lacking religion doesn't help either. See how Putin and Trump position themselves as God's servants, and get away with it. Further there are religions that actually demand or promote the killing of non-believers.

[helpfuldemon]

I've never been one of the faithful.  I imagined death when I was young and vanished for a minute.  There was nothing, so I told myself that there is nothing to fear of death.  I walked away from the Catholic Church before getting confirmed and I refused to go, I just didn't believe that it was the truth of the world.  Sadly in my older years I realize that I was right, but that it is a goal to attain to try and bring that light into the world.  The world is animal in nature, and people aren't always at the top of their game when it comes to doing the right thing.  Also sad is that I became no better, doing things that I now find morally wrong.  I didn't straighten out until I was 22, and even then I did a couple deeds that I am ashamed of.  Still, I became a good person mostly, just had a couple kinks.  Now I realize that God doesn't play by the rules, and I wonder if there are any in His eyes.  I see the animal nature now more than ever, and I realize that life can be a struggle, and we all commit sin from weariness or anger, or foolishness.  I wonder how God could police it all anyway?  

 

I can't say there is a Heaven or a Hell, but my dreams are not the most pleasant for me, and if there is any indication of where I might end up, it is in dream.  My dreams aren't terrible, just not entirely favorable to me; it's no Heaven that I dream, but it's not a Hell either.

 

 

[Cobie]

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Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[helpfuldemon]

I think we live in an animal world, with animal law, and we have an animal God.  This God approves of animal law for mankind.  I think we are stretching things when we imagine that God is this or that, God is simply as an animal;  killing for sport or food, doing things that might be cruel, playing at things and doing things for the sake of doing them.  There is no higher God of reason or forgiveness.  God can forgive, but maybe He doesn't want to.  

[wandelaar]

What reasons do you have to suppose such an animal God to exists, and if he does exist why would there be only one animal God? Why not a male and a female animal God, or even a family of animal Gods, or several tribes of them?

[helpfuldemon]

Well, first you have to suppose that a God exists, then you have to ask yourself, what kind of God is this to have created this world, if indeed He is the creator.  It is possible that there is no creator, but that there still can be a God.  In all of this crazy Universe with its complicated systems, you think there must be someone that organized it.  It is hard to believe this all happened by chance.  It is possible there are more than one God in the Universe, but I'm saying look at this place and imagine a creator behind it, the laws of the animal world would be His laws, no?

[wandelaar]

Supposing a God to exist doesn't solve anything. That only transforms the question of why there is the world as we know it to the question of why there should have been a God creating or organizing the world instead of nothing at all. I prefer to simply accept the fact that I don't know why there is this world as we know it. It's a mystery.

 

However I agree with you that the supposition of the existence a loving God doesn't agree with the facts, unless we suppose that God to be relatively powerless.

[helpfuldemon]

Unfortunately for me, I have my own experience as evidence that there is a God, or some entity outside of apparent reality that has certain powers.  It is still a mystery to me, and probably even more of a tragic idea to know that this world is unguided.  If I had to say, I'd say that God is not omniscient, and that He probably is the creator, and that He likes this place as it is, with its animal law.

[wandelaar]

That might be so, I don't know.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

In the topic Animal Morality Brian posted this:

 

On 2/15/2017 at 12:06 PM, Brian said:

Experiments suggest dogs and monkeys have a human-like sense of morality

 

I replied with this:

 

On 2/15/2017 at 3:42 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

None of this would come as a surprise to anyone who is familiar with Axelrod's famous work in:

 

The Evolution of Cooperation

 

Which I learned learned about in his original 1981 "Science" article with is referenced in the Wikipedia article linked above.  These ideas have been a cornerstone of my ethical thinking ever since then, but I don't have time to elaborate on that now.

 

That moral-like behavior would evolve among social animals is more or less taken for granted at this time.  None of this involves outside "supernatural" intervention or planning, it just turns out that cooperative behavior has survival value, which is perfectly in line with Darwinian theory.

 

My own worldview provides a larger context for this, but it is not necessary to the notion that "morality" evolves from successful cooperative behavior and would within a completely reductive materialist view of reality.

 

ZYD

[helpfuldemon]

I don't think there is a pack morality that comes into play with animals based on co-operation for survival.  I think that most animals are docile until provoked, threatened or hungry.  They do play at fighting and that can sometimes turn deadly, but mostly there is an inborn morality of peace amongst one another, I think.  When I say animal law I mean that we do attack one another for various reasons, and that seems to be okay with the creator.  We kill for sport and food as well, and that seems to be okay, because it is natural in our environment to do so.  The higher morality of the religions that say "Don't kill, forgive, aid when you are able" is a fabrication of Divine Law that I don't feel is true.  This idea that we have to love and accept everyone is not natural.

[Nungali]

..... it's    supernatural .

 

[wandelaar]

@helpfuldemon

Maybe you should think somewhat less, and study somewhat more. Primitive forms of morality in the animal world are a fact, regardless of what you think about it. See for instance the research by Peter Kropotkin and Frans de Waal.

Edited July 14, 2022 by wandelaar

[helpfuldemon]

It is supernatural.  

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

..... it's    supernatural .

 

 

[Cobie]

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Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

Well - my message is actually morally uplifting...

[helpfuldemon]

People probably don't want to believe me when I say God made me sick. They want to believe in a God of benevolence and love, and I don't blame them. Who would want to believe in a God that could be malicious and cruel? The fact is that it's pretty foolish to imagine that a God would take interest in someone like me and do what he has done to me. However, based on the way things went, I believe he did. It could be that it was some demon that did this to me, and not "The Almighty God". Who knows, there may be hundreds of Gods out there.

I'm writing this because I want to say it isn't fair. When I heard the God speak to me, it was in response to my call for the power to bring love to the world. I was betrayed. I didn't get that power, and in fact, lost a lot of my ability to feel and be love. If God is the God of love, you'd think I would have been helped and not tortured. It isn't fair that I got sick.

It also isn't fair that when I tried to educate myself, the demons terrorized me to the point of madness. Again, if God was kind and loving, this wouldn't have happened to me.

You could say it was Satan, and that shoe does fit. I hate to think that God is malicious, or Evil. Indifferent perhaps, but not Evil. If it was Satan or the Devil, I wonder why he bothered. I was a simple, small, young and uneducated man when the God came to me. A person of not much notice, comparatively. I don't know why this God did this to me. I've searched high and low and find little to compare to what I went through, though I'm sure there are stories worse.

I wish I had just fallen sick, without the interference of this God. Its destroyed my faith in God, and Heaven, and goodness, and love. I've had to climb out of the depths of doubt and fear to find peace with the idea that God simply does what he wants to do. Mine isn't a God of love, or reason. My God just does what he pleases, and in my case, what pleased him was to be cruel to me.

[wandelaar]

What can I say? You appear to be certain that it was a god or demon that did that to you, but how do you know? Further you appear to be willfully blind to the roll played by mutual aid in both the animal and the human world, while at the same time focusing on the ugly things in this world. But good and bad are both real, and are inextricably mixed up.

 

We are all just straw dogs as far as Tao is concerned, and there is no reason to get depressed about it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by wandelaar

[helpfuldemon]

I'm certain because of how it occurred.  There was definitely a presence that interacted with me, and I definitely heard a voice respond to me.  After I fell ill, I hallucinated a lot but there was a couple times that I had direct messages that I believe were from this source.  If it wasn't done by a God, it might as well be called a God, because of its power. 

 

If you had to endure what I endure, you'd be depressed too.

[Cobie]

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Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

15 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I'm certain because of how it occurred.  There was definitely a presence that interacted with me, and I definitely heard a voice respond to me.  After I fell ill, I hallucinated a lot but there was a couple times that I had direct messages that I believe were from this source.  If it wasn't done by a God, it might as well be called a God, because of its power. 

 

If you had to endure what I endure, you'd be depressed too.

 

You keep ignoring the facts. Your impressions are not necessarily objective facts, and particularly not if you had hallucinations too. Further Zhongyongdaoist mentioned the presence of (primitive) morality in the animal world and I did several times too but you stubbornly keep ignoring this because it doesn't fit your pessimistic worldview. Finally even if I would get depressed when I had to endure what you endure than that still wouldn't prove anything as to the correctness of your interpretation of your experiences. But I hope someone else's comments will be of more use to you than mine. Goodbye.