Morality

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

It IS Natural law to kill and steal, and it IS natural law to choose not to, except that our first inclination is the former, until we are trained to do otherwise.

 

Yes. If we consider the lone isolated human as natural .  But is there such a thing ?   I have  studied cases of extreme isolation / 'feral children ' and had personal experience with two mild cases , assisting in nursing them when they where 'bought in '  (from isolation ) - mild in that it was a period of extreme isolation starting in latter childhood , and  did not  start as a baby .  The only natural inclinations they have are those they picked up from their environment  and 'peers'  ( if they had them , in this case they would be animals ;  wolfs, bears or even antelope ) . No natural 'murder' and theft applies in these cases . I think it is taught , just like co-operation needs to be taught .

 

I see no evidence that our first inclination is murder .  It is trained in us or picked up by the society we are bought up in , or as a rebellion against it .  Of course , thats WITHIN a society , how they react to others outside their society is under a different set of laws and training .

 

The 'training we get to do otherwise '  ( than kill and steal )  is SPECIFIC within that society , a person that does not get this training  does not have some type of 'anti-social' programme already installed . What usually happens is  ( and I have studied  this in cultural anthropology and written about it in the 'Cultures in Crisis' series ) the untrained  ( for whatever reason; the men that missed out on or failed initiation ) band together and the 'arising' of their 'animal instincts' is more of a rebellion and  a non contribution /  'nose thumb' to their society and they become 'outlaws'  .   Anything from small scale to huge .

 

 

15 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

  The "higher morality" is simply mankind thinking it through, and that is what separates us from animals; the fact that we can think things through, and control our instincts.  Is this some God-given power?

 

Yeah , it is, in a way , simply thinking it through .... but how do you make it work ?  Down here , it was rather unusual - it was established by the vision of an artist , some where in Central Asia it was established and a current continued that still positively effects even western society today ( ie. the roots of our overall moral codes - that the mainstream religions of the west  and Hinduism and Buddhism adopted  * usually such 're-arrangements' where bought about by 'warlord' culture . In that , their moral codes apply to specific groups under their 'umbrella' .... but often not others .

 

 

As they say , when Man looses these ideals and codes he behaves WORSE than any animal . As time and evolution go on, these systems expand , trying to take more into their group so more are covered by their code - the more advanced group are all- inclusive , and see relationship with each other dependant on 'all being a being '  worthy of it .  (ie. animals, plants, environment  as well as people ).

 

 

15 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

 

  I would like to think that a God with a mind can do these things, but my experience tells me that God doesn't particularly honor this idea.  How did humans evolve past the animal?  Who can say.

 

Great question, something I have looked at for a long time, and of course, one of the central questions of anthropology  - also, what is the REAL distinction between human and animal ?

 

15 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

  The fact is that we can, and do, but also, do not.

 

We seem to be better at this when we look at an individual - who is improved by upbringing  in a society , learning the mores and taboos, going through their initiations and developments ..... yet the bigger picture  looking at humanity as a whole, its history , its mostly appearing like a rampaging homicidal , environmental destruction psychopath .  A conundrum !

 

Some have tried the 'God solution' , ie by bringing us together under one code for all, inclusive , so there is no one 'outside' to oppress  ( something like the Baha'i  religion is trying  ..... but I think we are a LONG way off that stage of evolution (as a species ) .

 

The thing is , people have done it before , in some rare cases ( as I mentioned above  * ) so what we need to do is look at how they did that, what works and what leads to failure .

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

I don't think there is a "nature" of mankind actually.  I think we start out malleable and are given everything, so we learn to take.  Then, when we don't get what we want to take, we learn to fight.  That is the origin of theft and murder, IMO.  As we age and get stronger, we do this to a more dangerous extent.  

[Nungali]

Thats possible . But I see it as AN option .  You pointed out a crucial node in development ;  baby gets given , learns to take . But what happens when baby does not get what they want ?  I think that is where various strategies start to develop - learning to take and fighting are one .    Crying is a big one      .

 

I remember getting through a HUGE hurdle with one little fellah . He did very well eventually going from demanding and taking  to  ' learning to ask '  .... but just when he got that , lesson 2 ; ' You might have to accept a 'no' after you ask  for something  ' .