Understanding Chinese martial arts

[Wu Ming Jen]

Only misreable people live for a long time.

 

When one is full of good energy the  body is in great functioning condition ( young or old) ones live is joyfull time goes by very fast.

 

Enjoyment of ones life, practicing your favorite martial art for balanced and fit mind, body and siprit while living is a true treasure. Death does not matter, not even a concern

 

What dies? people love to give that all their attention. What does not die, very few practice or even know about.

 

It is not even a matter of knowing the eternal aspects of ourselves. Just a just a matter of compleatly forgeting our conection with all things.

 

In seperation we have death and hold on to life. What a waste of time.

 

(inserty happy face)

Edited July 8, 2022 by Wu Ming Jen

[Gerard]

12 hours ago, Ethan singh said:

Could this be achieved by doing the following 

Vibrating the Dan Tian using the method from certain lineages of the shape will fist and the gate opening eight extremities fist 

Building up pressure inside the abdomen 

Resonating the vibration inside the body with the method of breathing with the sound of Ha

Practicing the standing pole posture

 

 

 

Sounds like:

 

https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-equation

 

If you want to go deep in this path, I have this other ‘equation’ for you waiting:

 

“A child of five could understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.”

(Groucho Marx). 

 

 

You haven’t started yet; go find a good teacher in a solid system that makes you sweat, and practice for at least 10 solid years of hard yakka, bro. 

 

If you come back here to this forum after that time, is probably to help others walk the CORRECT PATH, not the one based on reading books and yabba yabba type of talk. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Gerard

[MetaDao]

On 7/7/2022 at 7:17 AM, Earl Grey said:

 

There's a big difference between Bagua and Muay Thai, and this still isn't yuan qi.

 

But I think this thread has enough people who are certain of themselves, and I'm just going to say "Mmmmm-kay."

How is it not Yuan Qi? It is. That is a fact. Both those use energy. Your body must use energy to move, first of all. Even if it is a purely external martial art, it uses up energy that you replenish through food. Surviving throughout the day, you use up Yuan Qi. 

 

Bagua uses post-natal Qi. So, you are still using up the pre-heaven. Using post-heaven Qi depletes the pre-heaven. You actually use it up even faster through an art like Bagua. However, Bagua opens channels and makes you healthy through using it up , so that’s the trade-off. 
 

Your last statement is ironic, but I will leave it there. There are truths and falsehoods. It is up to you to decide, which is which. From my perspective, this is the truth.

 

If you can explain to me how Yuan Qi is not used up during martial arts, I will evaluate that to see if it is true. It is always in a state of decrease after puberty unless you are actively replenishing it. Martial arts do not replenish Yuan Qi. They use it up. Not that much but a little.

 

Not saying they don’t have uses. The topic was about martial arts in relation to longevity. Longevity is related to Yuan Qi. You want to slow the rate of Yuan Qi usage as much as possible. This is done through following TCM principles and making the body more efficient. In a way, martial arts like Bagua can slow the rate at which Yuan Qi used by increasing the body’s efficiency. It’s a double-edged sword though. You are still going to use more even if your body is more efficient through constant martial practice. If you stop martial arts, then sure, maybe you will have more longevity than a normal, untrained person because of the state of overall health. However, if you are constantly using up Qi for things like Jin, you will use it up faster. Even if your body is more efficient.

 

Think of a bear in hibernation. Now, compare that bear to a martial artist. Which would you say uses up more Yuan Qi?

 

To be a bear in hibernation is extremely difficult. To be an active bear in a constant state of replenishment. Some might say close to impossible. 
 

Martial artists are bears that never hibernate and are always hunting. 
 

If you are seeking longevity or spirituality, learn the martial arts. Then, only use them in a martial situation. A bear does not go around picking fights. They forage for food, then go into a state of hibernation to conserve energy. Be like a bear. Not like the modern martial artist.

Edited July 8, 2022 by MetaDao

[Master Logray]

21 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Many Kung Fu systems, including the Long Fist style I mentioned above, teach a variety of weapons well suited for the battle field. One such list (known as  "The Eighteen Weapons of Kung Fu") includes:

 

Saber, spear, sword, Chinese halberd, battle-axe, deer-horn knives, hook sword, fork, whip, mace, hammer, talon, trident-halberd, staff, lance, cudgel, crutch and meteor hammer.

 

 

 

The normal steps in martial arts training could start with different kinds of stances, fundamental long style, progress to more styles, more Chi trainings, simulated exchanges, or mock fights.  Only then students were exposed to weapons.   Teachers generally don't expect students to learn new things unless they master the current trainings (for martial and nedian and almost everything)

 

The weapons trained are normally restricted to swords or poles, sometimes long knives.  So you see the problem is most people don't go that far, not to mention mastering more than a few weapons.  In fact I wonder many masters don't know how to use these weapons themselves in spite of learning them in their younger days.  They don't train anymore, never use them and seldom teaches. 

 

Another factor is these weapons are military grade in the eyes of authorities.  It is not unlike having an AR-15 nowadays.  Governments over the centuries always dislike closely knitted loyal and secretive organizations with fighting training.  Many factions simply trained in farm tools instead, to avoid suspicions or being drafted to fight bandits or a war.  The styles were modified and tuned down, quite different from their military cousins.

 

 

[zerostao]

On 7/6/2022 at 10:44 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

 

I believe that if this practice was truly effective, then the military would have already introduced it into recruit training programs. 

 

Probably it's better to stick to air breathing.

 

On 7/6/2022 at 10:03 PM, Earl Grey said:

 

Turtles also breath through their anuses (no, really). Can't imagine the military finding that useful. Oh, wait:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/psychic-spies-truth-men-stare-goats/story?id=9032019

 

 

ya’ll think that the military’s goal is to prolong life?

interesting perception. 
 

it is ok to say something like “your understanding, experience, opinion, is different than mine”

speaking in absolutes; you are wrong, I am right, labeling others as frauds, etc is sanctionable 

On this forum.

Edited July 8, 2022 by zerostao

[Cheshire Cat]

7 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

ya’ll think that the military’s goal is to prolong life?

interesting perception. 
 

it is ok to say something like “your understanding, experience, opinion, is different than mine”

speaking in absolutes; you are wrong, I am right, labeling others as frauds, etc is sanctionable 

On this forum.

 

Do you think I wrote something that is sanctionable on this forum ?

[zerostao]

25 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

Do you think I wrote something that is sanctionable on this forum ?

I do not

 

i chose to use your military reference as an example. I didn’t say, you are wrong, military is actually for shortening lifespan.

Which would’ve been in bad form on my part.

 

And it was just a convenient type of thing.

 

Also, I hid a few posts to slow down any momentum towards a possible dojo war mentality exchange.

 
So, no sanctions given. Just a friendly reminder to all, that some lines shouldn’t be crossed IMO

if you’ve done this sorta thing in the past/ call someone wrong or a fraud/ don’t do it in the future on this forum

Edited July 9, 2022 by zerostao

[Ethan singh]

I read on Dao bums that some schools practice using fa jin with their swords to cut through armor and so is it possible to channel the force of fa jin through and beyond the range of a sword as if you were using Kong jin with a weapon and if it could not be done with a sword then could it be done with a spear 

 

[Nungali]

The weak use sword or spear .

 

I cut through their armour with a look !  

 

(or sometimes a smart arse comment )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 09/07/2022 at 2:49 AM, Master Logray said:

 

The normal steps in martial arts training could start with different kinds of stances, fundamental long style, progress to more styles, more Chi trainings, simulated exchanges, or mock fights.  Only then students were exposed to weapons.   Teachers generally don't expect students to learn new things unless they master the current trainings (for martial and nedian and almost everything)

 

Like your posts on this subject .    I do kobudo, so Okinawan, not Chinese martial arts.  The above method is the required one in kobudo.

 

On 09/07/2022 at 2:49 AM, Master Logray said:

 

The weapons trained are normally restricted to swords or poles, sometimes long knives.  So you see the problem is most people don't go that far, not to mention mastering more than a few weapons.  In fact I wonder many masters don't know how to use these weapons themselves in spite of learning them in their younger days.  They don't train anymore, never use them and seldom teaches. 

 

Oh yeah !  And a lot are 'in the box' .  Sometime I have no idea what is going on !  When I first got into 'rope dart'  ( which I think is aversion of  ' meteor hammer ' , mentioned in a previous post )  I checked out some youtubes of it . One was a big show ( Okinawans LOVE martial arts shows ) with the 'Masters'  doing a demo of it .  All traditional  costumes, one came out, drew sword, the other twirled, threw and captured his arm . The swordsman stopped, bowed and that was the end. They put weapons away and bowed to audience , how cheered in an uproar of approval .   Huh ?    They did a few simple moves  like that and that was it .

 

I have seen the wushu version, obviously a show of skill and often very flashy but full of 'unnecessary moves ' and  a bit of showing off ' ( on a practical level , I do appreciate the skill and athletics ability  of it all ) . Anyway , in my experience, as soon as the swordsman arm is entangled, he can simply rush forward and slice you up . So you have to be ready for that and deal with it, evading and using the rope to further entangle him at close quarter ,  and taking him down  and entangle more and/  or 'finish' .  There is the issue of an initial first miss or evasion , then you have to deal with retrieval and 'reload' whilst dealing with a charging swordsman .  There are several arts  involved , including a 'rope jitsu' art of 'tying up '  (  Japanese police used to be trained in , up to the 1960s, when handcuffs replaced the coil of rope that was part of their uniform ) .

 

Similar with 3 section staff .  Wushu looks great , but you will note, when engaging they become 'less flamboyant and more practical', disengage , distance , do the more fantastic stuff, then re-engage , and so on .

 

Sometimes I wonder if many weapons experts have experimented  with 'diverse practicality' ...going  on what I have seen .  But basically these performances are martial  arts  .

 

I cant conceive of the use of twirling the rope dart around my own neck in the midst of a battle. I imagine its use might be more like, a few guys with them trying to encircle  champion swordsman enemy  that was cleaning their side up - multiple entanglements from different directions might be more effective

 

 

" Beginner tutorial "    

 

On 09/07/2022 at 2:49 AM, Master Logray said:

 

Another factor is these weapons are military grade in the eyes of authorities.  It is not unlike having an AR-15 nowadays.  Governments over the centuries always dislike closely knitted loyal and secretive organizations with fighting training.  Many factions simply trained in farm tools instead, to avoid suspicions or being drafted to fight bandits or a war.  The styles were modified and tuned down, quite different from their military cousins.

 

Many of the weapons I practice with are also tools; staffs, oar, garden hoe ( deadly against the toes of the  front lead foot of the opponent  ) 'handles', flails , etc .  The military versions are rather different .

 

In the military , the average soldier would be given a weapon and trained in its use, and most probably, just specific uses . Like police are today; they have a gun but are only rained in a few ways to use it; mostly 'body mass' shots, not trained to do things like shoot a weapon out of someone's hand , or 'risk' a leg shot .  In fact, even a mate of mine who did  SAS training, including unarmed and knife fighting got cleaned up very easily by me  ( when he said he could disarm a 'non professional' like me  .   What could I say , but " Well, I do have a rubber knife handy if you want to try it . "  )  .  I told him after " Dont feel too bad .  That was only a part of all the training you had to do , I cant  shoot a variety of guns ,  run all day , do orienteering , survive in the bush , scuba dive,  parachute,  etc etc ...  and sorry about kicking you in the balls first , even though it was a knife attack . " 

 

And you where right about " It is not unlike having an AR-15 nowadays."   In some cases, still the same;    two of the weapons I have trained with are illegal , and in the next state , Victoria , all martial arts weapons need a license and registration - you even have to lock up plain wooden staff in a gun cupboard !  (or just stick a broom head on it  ) . 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

The weak use sword or spear .

 

I cut through their armour with a look !  

 

(or sometimes a smart arse comment )

 

A look?

Basic 

I've mastered the art of cutting through armor with  a  fart!

That way I can destroy my enemies in front and behind simultaneously after enjoying any of a number of my favorite meals!

A well fed warrior is a fearsome opponent.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

A look?

Basic 

I've mastered the art of cutting through armor with  a  fart!

That way I can destroy my enemies in front and behind simultaneously after enjoying any of a number of my favorite meals!

A well fed warrior is a fearsome opponent.

 

Fist of fury? No! Fart of fury!

[natural]

4 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Fist of fury? No! Fart of fury!

 

As one who farts frequently and with no worries, I have yet to fart with ferocity.

[Earl Grey]

17 minutes ago, natural said:

 

As one who farts frequently and with no worries, I have yet to fart with ferocity.

 
Oh brother: where fart thou?

[zerostao]

Disclaimer—I do not have a complete understanding of Chinese martial arts.

With my present level of understanding, without thinking too much about why a look and a fart were chosen, I will take the spear, since no one else seemed to want it.

Also understanding that if the look and fart were code for “look I’ve got a gas operated firearm” my spear may still work if they didn’t have bullets. And I didn’t recognize any code suggesting they have.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zerostao

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, steve said:

 

 

Basic 

I've mastered the art of cutting through armor with  a  fart!

That way I can destroy my enemies in front and behind simultaneously after enjoying any of a number of my favorite meals!

A well fed warrior is a fearsome opponent.

 

 

My T-shirt ( on the back ) during the first covid 'social distancing ' :

 

IF YOU CAN

READ THIS

              I JUST FARTED

 

[Nungali]

Regarding the spear .

 

Or,  more correctly, the staff ,   long and short  ( in my system , long staff is from ground  to crown,  short is from  ground to solar plexus) try this  with your staff forms ;   attach a spear point to one end , then do your forms .

 

Very interesting  when I tried it . Although they are staff forms  nearly all the defensive moves  and 'secondary'  strikes where with the blunt end and the main thrusts and 'swipes' were  with the pointy end .  Its had to tell when using a staff with identical ends .  Oh, of course , that only applies if you START the form with  the staff the right way around .

 

I prefer this style spear head ;

 

 

2nd on right , mine is a bit wider - I made it myself . With the back sides of the 'blade' sharpened it can be used to cut when pulling back , eg.  when the spear shaft is met with another weapon's shaft , say, a staff, when it blocks your attack ,you can slide along and then pull back and cut their grip with the back of the point / blade or, in a 'tussle'   ( 'sticky sticks '  - like sticky hands ), I was able to get the shaft against their chest or shoulder, move as if to push them back but then shift back, pull back spear and cut across the side of their neck  with the rear of the blade .  

 

It's okay .... its made of  rubber and      .   Rather excellent , opponent  knows* when they been 'stabbed' or 'cut'  but no one gets injured . 

 

* Before that, I would pull the techniques or go past them and they would say ' Missed me .' 

 

Favourite technique  ( because I was scoring the most points with it ) ;  'the retreating thrust '  -   I am backing away fast, usually into a cross stance, body nearly  turned away and then I thrust backwards,  at the opponent .

 

I never seen anyone do those moves in a demo . 

[Nungali]

... hang on ..... I think I have seen a move like that in  a Chinese spear form ; cross leg stance , striking backwards ( sort of ) hands low and spearing upwards. I do a scooping movement , like the trough between waves , point goes down,  and up while extending .

 

They probably do it .... they seem to do every move possible     

[zerostao]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

... hang on ..... I think I have seen a move like that in  a Chinese spear form ; cross leg stance , striking backwards ( sort of ) hands low and spearing upwards. I do a scooping movement , like the trough between waves , point goes down,  and up while extending .

 

They probably do it .... they seem to do every move possible     

Please post a video of you executing this movement. Also include the “look” 

I know it will become an instant classic!

it will be one of those rare things that will be talked about for years to come among bums.

 

edit/ removed the word “and” 

I had misspelled it anyways, snd

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by zerostao

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, zerostao said:

Please post a video of you executing this movement. Also include the “look” 

I know it will become an instant classic!

it will be one of those rare things that will be talked about for years to come among bums.

 

 

 

 

I dont have a video of it .

 

 

Would a still  do, instead ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

This looks close to it ;

 

 

deeper stance though

 

and his look is totally different    ( although I too can do the ' Basil Faulty's  big brother  is not impressed with you '  look .  )

[zerostao]

 

 

today my understanding of Chinese martial arts is that it functions the same as pretty much everything else.

 

Jenny Lamb posted this earlier today:

Opportunity belongs to those who are ready for it.

 

Later, she added;

My advice is to believe in karma. Do what is right and don’t expect what you can exchange it for. Only a giver can truly gain. Letting go all attachments you will obtain true freedom in life.

 

 

There is nothing that she said, I would argue against.

Being the jerk that sometimes I am, I suggest that all along the path, opportunities will present themselves. Opportunities appear in all kinds of forms. 
 

One does not get to pick and choose the nature of the opportunities or the timing. You are either ready or not. The whole universe watches.

 

If you believe that your training, your style, is what determines outcome or fate, I suggest you reevaluate. Because that is dogma.

The fight does not always go to the strongest or the clever one. The race is not always won by the swiftest.

 

along the path it is known that sometimes the karma runs over the dogma.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by zerostao

[Nungali]

A fight is unpredictable .... ANYONE can loose  a fight .

[Nungali]

 Martial  arts are      ARTS      ( I already said that ) .

 

When we do sword I call it 'swordplay' .  I was asked why I dont take it more seriously .

 

To me, it is  all 'play'  , when its a real sword and someone is actually trying to kill or maim you  it stops being play , other wise its 'swordplay' .

[zerostao]

Thank you Nungali, and I agree with what you posted. 
also, my post was not directed towards you or anyone else in particular.