Qigong and astral travel

[Cobie]

7 minutes ago, Neirong said:

… neophytes … 

 

Not interested.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cobie

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

How about we get back on topic? This was a good thread before the shit talking started 

In Daoist traditions, some lineages consider astral travel type practices a distraction or deviation - others actively train for it.

 

Certain lines in the Maoshan sect for instance are fond of this kind of thing.
 

It’s achieved after a prolonged period of absorption into the ‘inner sheath’ of the central channel…

 

When it is filled with Ling qi, there’s a transformation and a kind of Ling shen light is formed… over time (and training) this consolidates outside the body as a sphere of pure light… the practitioner can enter the light with one pointed concentration and directly appear anywhere they choose (it’s also where various siddhi are actively developed)…

 

They travel from the material realm to whatever other realm they have access to (usually a lower ghost/hell realm and a higher realm).

 

There’s another vehicle for a similar skill which uses a totally different mechanic - it involves freeing the Hun spirit to similarly travel through the various realms and through time… This is considered ‘indirect’ travel - as its ‘vision’ is filtered through the personality. Usually done in sleep, or sleep-like states. It’s a ‘lower’ level skill if trained - but often happens by itself for most long term practitioners. (To be expected but not actively encouraged according to my teacher)

 

Neither of these is considered necessary for spiritual cultivation (even by the sects that practice them)…

 

One of the ‘semi-immortal Ancient Masters’ earlier said that it’s a requirement to fully access every part of every realm for spiritual growth to occur… not so according to my understanding. It’s like saying you must visit ever inch of every country before you can transcend the material realm… 

 

Another issue is it requires generating a lot of Ling… (which is like the purest form of ‘spirit-qi’ that’s available in the manifest realm). You either use Shen to generate Ling or you access Yuan Shen (original spirit) - doing one eventually precludes the other.

 

It’s considered by alchemical lines (like mine) that Ling-based ‘magical’ practice creates a type of heavy karmic weight - effectively guaranteeing a large number of rebirths… the quality of the actions taken with this Ling (whether it’s motivated by the lower desires or the higher virtues) will dictate the quality of those rebirths… but because of the power that this affords, most tend towards the lower… and the nature of this sort of thing means that the karmic repercussion is far higher than with ‘ordinary’ action.  
 

Why are magic people so obsessed with demons and entities? Coz their soul is pulled by the gravity of their karma (and the karma of their traditions) to that realm… one life they’ll be battling demons another life they’ll be a demon battling some poor soul… like a never ending melodrama.

 

In my tradition this stuff is avoided as much as possible. Some do use it to develop their healing abilities - but that’s also considered a side-path and only allowed if your Ming/karma dictates.

Edited October 20, 2022 by freeform

[Shadow_self]

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

In Daoist traditions, some lineages consider astral travel type practices a distraction or deviation - others actively train for it.

 

Certain lines in the Maoshan sect for instance are fond of this kind of thing.
 

It’s achieved after a prolonged period of absorption into the ‘inner sheath’ of the central channel…

 

When it is filled with Ling qi, there’s a transformation and a kind of Ling shen light is formed… over time (and training) this consolidates outside the body as a sphere of pure light… the practitioner can enter the light with one pointed concentration and directly appear anywhere they choose (it’s also where various siddhi are actively developed)…

I dont think anyone will be learning this so easily, especially given one has to actually develop the central channel first, which takes quite some time. Its interesting how a lot of people just assume you can sit down and focus on a chakra or the central channel, without understanding the pre-requisites

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

They travel from the material realm to whatever other realm they have access to (usually a lower ghost/hell realm and a higher realm).

Ghosts are strange one. I dont see the benefit in contacting anything in either of these realms. When you say higher, I assume you may be referencing the realm of the jealous dieties?  

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

There’s another vehicle for a similar skill which uses a totally different mechanic - it involves freeing the Hun spirit to similarly travel through the various realms and through time… This is considered ‘indirect’ travel - as its ‘vision’ is filtered through the personality. Usually done in sleep, or sleep-like states. It’s a ‘lower’ level skill if trained - but often happens by itself for most long term practitioners. (To be expected but not actively encouraged according to my teacher)

 

Shui gong practice   It is a very strange experience when the Hun starts to feel wanderlust haha  

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

Neither of these is considered necessary for spiritual cultivation (even by the sects that practice them)…

100% agree. Ive seen people mistake these types of practices with all manner of other things...from lucid dreaming right up to Phowa

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

One of the ‘semi-immortal Ancient Masters’ earlier said that it’s a requirement to fully access every part of every realm for spiritual growth to occur… not so according to my understanding. It’s like saying you must visit ever inch of every country before you can transcend the material realm… 

 

Another issue is it requires generating a lot of Ling… (which is like the purest form of ‘spirit-qi’ that’s available in the manifest realm). You either use Shen to generate Ling or you access Yuan Shen (original spirit) - doing one eventually precludes the other.

I was warned not to be attached or driven towards these types of things by my Buddhist teacher. I was told certain markers of progress that signified something, but not to try to be driven towards "experiences" be it accessing altered realms, or having visitors as two examples.

 

Anytime it happens, I was told it should occur passively, and I should behave passively towards it. 

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

It’s considered by alchemical lines (like mine) that Ling-based ‘magical’ practice creates a type of heavy karmic weight - effectively guaranteeing a large number of rebirths… the quality of the actions taken with this Ling (whether it’s motivated by the lower desires or the higher virtues) will dictate the quality of those rebirths… but because of the power that this affords, most tend towards the lower… and the nature of this sort of thing means that the karmic repercussion is far higher than with ‘ordinary’ action.  
 

Why are magic people so obsessed with demons and entities? Coz their soul is pulled by the gravity of their karma (and the karma of their traditions) to that realm… one life they’ll be battling demons another life they’ll be a demon battling some poor soul… like a never ending melodrama.

This sounds like why  

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

In my tradition this stuff is avoided as much as possible. Some do use it to develop their healing abilities - but that’s also considered a side-path and only allowed if your Ming/karma dictates.

My understanding is that the Ling when acting as an expression of Yuan Shen is seen as the lower path, as it moves one away from Dao...getting past this is seen to be very important

[liminal_luke]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Oh we’ve been through a period where people thought I’m Damo - you’re not the first cyber sleuth to draw that dramatic conclusion 

 

 

You'll know you've arrived when Bums start accusing other obviously accomplished folk of being freeform.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly. I too became worried that being out of my body would leave me rather defenceless. 
 

 

It was an ancient Taoist myth that a soul can be leaving the body at a high level of meditation. Someone needs to guard the body while the soul was away. It needs a body to return to. If the soul entered the wrong body, for example, a pig, then the person will be in the pig's body for life. Unless one can escape the body and return to the original body. It is only a myth as far as I know.

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

That is why we teach astral travel as a part of a complete system

 

Complete system?

 

Exactly what is "complete" about combining  Daoist methods like ZZ and Dan tien gong with Western esoteric methods and techniques?

 

That's quite the opposite of complete. The very nature of it suggests its several fragments of different bits and pieces

 

Also, you do realize these things are in conflict? 

 

An example of this is visualization and dan tian gong. They oppose one another

 

Someone with knowledge of the mechanics would know why this is the case. 

[Aeordimm]

52 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The very nature of it suggests its several fragments of different bits and pieces

 

Various traditions are precisely the bits and pieces. 

[Shadow_self]

50 minutes ago, Aeordimm said:

 

Various traditions are precisely the bits and pieces. 

 

The difference is that the people who founded the traditions that survived today, understood the mechanics to such a high degree that they were able to pick and choose what went where,

 

That plus generations of trial and error.

 

And most importantly access to a lineage stream.

 

Seeing as you are a "Magus"..and you're teaching Daoist material.Can you discuss the overlaps between traditions?

 

Do you know what the Magical sects of Daoism have in common with the others? You're using Daoist practices with magic after all...surely you have an understanding of the mechanics? 

 

There has been several attempts to get you and your counterpart to discuss your understanding of the mechanics. So far, I've seen more writing from your website trying to publicly talk crap and tell lies about other accomplished teachers, instead of actually making a case for demonstrating that you have something worth offering.

 

As far as showing a knowledge of the mechanics...I haven't seen either of you make a post on them yet

 

The biggest contributor to this topic of astral projection was actually freeform, who literally laid out some of the mechanisms  of astral projection here. And its not even something he focuses on at all.

 

And yet, here you are both advertising it as a core part of what you are teaching? Then, when asked to talk about the mechanics...you've nothing to offer? Really? 

 

I don't think either of you are in any position to be criticising anyone to be perfectly honest. And definitely in NO position to be fabricating lies about them. Irrespective of the dishonesty and lack of ethics involved...it says a lot about a teacher when they spend that much time and effort time trying to falsely discredit others, than using their platform to demonstrate their knowledge and understanding

Edited October 20, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Aeordimm]

7 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

to such a high degree that they were able to pick and choose what went where,

 

That plus generations of trial and error.

 

Right. Generations of plumbers, electricians, and carpenters work together to bring about a whole house. I don't see where the conflict is. I also don't see why it's wrong to study different traditions and have multiple teachers.

 

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

You're using Daoist practices with magic after all...surely you have an understanding of the mechanics? 

 

We sure do. We don't mix up exercises together as you might think. We use Daoist practices for their original purpose. 

 

12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

There has been several attempts to get you and your counterpart to discuss your understanding of the mechanics.

 

We don't want to explain it personally to you and freeform.

 

15 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I don't think either of you are in any position to be criticising anyone to be perfectly honest. And definitely in NO position to be fabricating lies about them.

 

Yes, we are in that position. Just because you like those individuals and possibly learn from them doesn't mean we offer lies about them. Only our honest opinion.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

53 minutes ago, Aeordimm said:

 

Right. Generations of plumbers, electricians, and carpenters work together to bring about a whole house. I don't see where the conflict is. I also don't see why it's wrong to study different traditions and have multiple teachers.

The conflict is where you dont understand the mechanics and are picking and choosing what goes where

 

Thinking all you need from Daoist practice is Dantien gong and ZZ. That tells me you have no clue about the mechanics

 

Knowing a method doesn't mean you understand it. Demonstrating your knowledge via an explanation of the mechanics does

 

Quote

We sure do. We don't mix up exercises together as you might think. We use Daoist practices for their original purpose. 

Really? I don't think you do, because you would not be teaching visualization and dantien gong within a few months of each other of you did.

 

A rudimentary understanding of the mechanics would suffice here

 

Quote

We don't want to explain it personally to you and freeform.

 

Thats a nice double standard. You expect to be able to criticise anyone in public and will lie to do so, but when asked to explain anything in public.

 

Silence

 

Yeah. People aren't stupid

 

Its not that you don't want to explain it.

 

You cant.

 

You know VERY WELL that there are people here who will call you both out on your claims of knowledge, and when they do, you'll stay silent because saying anything would incriminate you and expose details and a lack of understanding you'd rather people didnt see.

 

Quote

Yes, we are in that position. Just because you like those individuals and possibly learn from them doesn't mean we offer lies about them. Only our honest opinion.

 

I'm sorry to tell you but your "honest" opinion is anything but honest. let me pull a few quick examples of lies out. If I was to go through all of it, id need a blog rather than a post

 

Quote

Internal Academy Subscription has no Feedback option, no Tracking progress, and no contact with the Teacher.

 

1. There is plenty of feedback. There is a group where seniors teachers and Damo interact with students all the time.

2. As for tracking progress. I've been given sufficient information about my progress when I've asked. Plenty of times

3 There is more than enough contact with multiple teachers. I have had many of them correct my alignments, and received plenty of other help as well.

 

One line...3 lies....ONE LINE. 

 

I didnt even have to read past 1 line to get 3 lies out of you two

 

And let me be clear. I have a second teacher, who teaches me for free.

 

So I have nothing to gain by endorsing anyone. ZERO

 

I just don't like liars, and will call it out when I see it.

 

I'm not about to go on and on. Nor is it needed to go back and forward about it

 

Anyone with the smallest level of discernment can see your aim here, and, to echo @freeform , it is utterly pathetic to be honest.

 

Moreover, its a grand reflection of both of your levels of development of "soul" you claim to be so important.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Master Logray]

18 hours ago, 鞏三孝 said:

 

you too 

 

We know that you have a verrry good teacher. To what extent?? Practitioners all over Asia know him, and they will come to him for advice, even help and medical treatment! And the teacher is proficient in English. But besides you, does anyone know him? It just so happens that the method he teaches is terribly similar to that of Damien Mitchell, and he also happens to think that Damien Mitchell is a highly qualified practitioner...So if people want to learn more from you or him, actually best to just join Lotus Neikung. Your teacher...quite a character 

 

It never occurs to me Damo = Freeform.  But in the past years, sometimes Freeform would write about some uncommon concepts (forgotten) which Damo presumably also talks about.  So I wonder if I am being ignorant or they are from same lineage.  The only evidence is that both are, sorry, a bit long winded.

[Master Logray]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly. I too became worried that being out of my body would leave me rather defenceless. 
 

 

 @Learner too.

 

I was also having the same thinking.  Over the years, I have been warned by laymen, ZhengYi Taoists, Buddhists and even Christian priest saying that meditation (not even astral travel) is dangerous.  Hostile entities could attack or lure you into something bad.  I know they have a point (also conflict of interest) as there could be many entities, powers and even worlds beyond our daily lives.  It would be naive to think everything everywhere is only filled with love and compassion.  And even they may not intent to harm us, but would not care about our best interest.  I think it would be prudent to be "belong" to some higher powers' lineage - gods, deities, angels, immortals and so on.  So help may be available just in case.   Therefore going to churches and temples of your religion frequently would be a form of insurance.

 

[Aeordimm]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Knowing a method doesn't mean you understand it.

 

And you think I'm going to share a lot of explanation texts just to disprove you? Think what you wish.

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Moreover, its a grand reflection of both of your levels of development of "soul" you claim to be so important.

 

Your emotional and passionate response is a trait of a young person with high hopes and motivation yet very little experience. When someone says something you disagree with, it crushes your worldview if you do. 

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Thats a nice double standard. You expect to be able to criticise anyone in public and will lie to do so, but when asked to explain anything in public.

 

That goes back to your attitude before us criticizing anyone. Someone created the thread about us, and I felt like I had to respond.

[Aeordimm]

12 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

Hostile entities could attack or lure you into something bad.  I know they have a point (also conflict of interest) as there could be many entities, powers and even worlds beyond our daily lives. 

 

Those entities mainly see you as food. Just like when you walk into a forest, everything alive will turn against you, from mosquitoes to bears. The creatures would feed on your desires and weaknesses, mainly fear, lust, and attachment. There's a process of growing a "thicker skin" so that you won't be affected as much. If such a practice leaves you feeling like you have been under a bus, you shouldn't do it.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Aeordimm said:

 

And you think I'm going to share a lot of explanation texts just to disprove you?

I think anyone teaching a method is obliged to show they understand the mechanics of it...especially when asked, and ESPECIALLY when fabricating stories about people in detail

 

My benchmark for a teacher is someone who has the methods, knowledge of the mechanics and skill...In other words they understand cause, conditions and effect. I hold anyone claiming that title to that standard

 

As to whether I think you'll share anything? No I already established that you won't, and I made clear why I'm saying that

 

But you are welcome to show me otherwise.

 

I welcome being wrong...just bring the evidence

 

2 hours ago, Aeordimm said:

Think what you wish.

I don't need to think anything...all the evidence speaks for itself

 

2 hours ago, Aeordimm said:

Your emotional and passionate response is a trait of a young person with high hopes and motivation yet very little experience.

My response to question anyone who claims to have mastery over a method is neither emotional nor passionate...it is rational

 

My aims are very modest in fact...I expect nothing from my internal practice only truth.

 

My level of experience is irrelevant for two reasons

 

1. I am a student, not a teacher...So I don't need to have decades behind me

2. Quality over quantity...Ill take 1 day of meaningful practice over a year of useless practice any day.

 

2 hours ago, Aeordimm said:

When someone says something you disagree with, it crushes your worldview if you do. 

My worldview is doing just fine thank you

 

Having spent a long time in academia, and working in a department concerned with the mind and brain, surrounded by reductive materialists and making the case for the opposing argument, I've had my worldview challenged more times that you'd care to know

 

You tend to grow thick skin in that case

 

But I did get a few insights into peoples avoidance strategies...Which is how I know what you are doing

 

Like deflecting to non-important matters when posed with a challenge

Like refusing to answer questions when asked because they know they haven't got the requisite information

Like resorting to  lies/deception in an attempt to make themselves appear superior.

 

In case you didnt know...I have seen this movie hundreds of times....different toilet, same crap

 

It always ends the same way too...

2 hours ago, Aeordimm said:

That goes back to your attitude before us criticizing anyone. Someone created the thread about us, and I felt like I had to respond.

 

You come into a public forum, claiming mastery over methods, and cant even explain them when asked. While at the same time going on a slander campaign against people who can. 

 

You claim to be a teacher, you invite criticism and questions.

You claim understanding, you invite scrutiny.

You tell lies, be prepared to be called to account over it

 

You are the one criticising people...you're just being called up on making false claims.

 

Teach who you want, do what you wish if you can handle what comes with it.

 

But start telling lies about people.. expect there to be people out there who like the truth and are willing to speak up.

[freeform]

7 hours ago, Master Logray said:

So I wonder if I am being ignorant or they are from same lineage.  The only evidence is that both are, sorry, a bit long winded.

Yup - exactly… and I think I’ve mentioned before that we’re from the same lineage (although it’s a biiiiig lineage - so a lot of variation within it).
 

Wang Li Ping is also from the same lineage actually… he just doesn’t bother with teaching the foundations (understandable - coz it’s a long drawn out process requiring regular contact and supervision with pesky students ).

 

Oh yes - and I’m totally guilty of being long-winded! 
 

I type fast but edit very slowly… so sometimes I don’t edit much at all - which = waffling  

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Yet again the thread is derailed by the usual suspects 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

I’ve had enough. @freeform and @Shadow_self, if you want @Neirong and @Aeordimm to reveal their teachers, lineages, secrets etc then lead by example and do it first. If you don’t you are just doing the same as what you claim they do. And don’t do it here, if you have such a massive hard on for them, start a new thread, do it in the Ancient Masters thread or start your own. Keep your arguments there or even better in direct messages so you spare the rest of us from this nonsense.

 

Show some basic respect to @Nuralshamal who is passionate about this topic and whoever else has been following this thread for months by leaving this thread alone and keeping your petty arguments with others out of here. That is, if your egos will allow it.

[Wilhelm]

12 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

This happens all the time man, it's no big deal (threads getting derailed to continue the 'overall' conversation happening on Daobums) - you've just gotta quote the post you want to know more from and ask follow-up questions.  

 

I'd look for something in freeform's post myself as one of the only substantive ones on the topic, but this topic isn't my cup of tea haha

17 hours ago, freeform said:

It’s achieved after a prolonged period of absorption into the ‘inner sheath’ of the central channel…

Hey freeform do you have any idea of the mechanics of how this is achieved in occult schools, who often practice this much earlier into their development?  I'm thinking of one in particular that sets you up supine, has you relax a bit and then "Imagine yourself...".  There's clearly more than one way to skin this cat (assuming the second is valid)!  So what's the difference if you don't mind me asking?

Edited October 21, 2022 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

Welcome to the Daobums @Pak_Satrio 

 

By the way - I’m yet to see an on-topic post from you in this thread.
 

Maybe try moving the conversation forwards yourself instead of getting upset?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

Welcome to the Daobums @Pak_Satrio 

 

By the way - I’m yet to see an on-topic post from you in this thread.
 

Maybe try moving the conversation forwards yourself instead of getting upset?

Get out 

[freeform]

50 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Hey freeform do you have any idea of the mechanics of how this is achieved in occult schools, who often practice this much earlier into their development?

I don’t actually.
 

I guess the closest sect in Daoism to western occultism is the Zhengyi tradition (which is of very little interest to me to be honest).

 

Their approach is using various trance states and creating ‘pacts’ with entities and deities using talismanic magic, incantations, rituals, transmissions and so on. The results (if there are any) are generally ‘quicker’ because the power is ‘borrowed’… (to be repaid later with interest in the view of my tradition).

 

On another note - I described the orb of light that appears for people deep into the Shangqing practices… I always wondered if that stereotypical image we all know of the witch looking into a crystal ball - whether that is like a ritualised imitation of that 🤔

Edited October 21, 2022 by freeform

[freeform]

21 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I'm thinking of one in particular that sets you up supine, has you relax a bit and then "Imagine yourself...".  There's clearly more than one way to skin this cat (assuming the second is valid)!  So what's the difference if you don't mind me asking?

Oh - do you mean like the lucid dreaming/astral travel stuff you see?

 

Like when the ‘energy body’ lifts off your body - and then you can send it to places?

Edited October 21, 2022 by freeform

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

Oh - do you mean like the lucid dreaming/astral travel stuff you see?

Like when the ‘energy body’ lifts off your body - and then you can send it to places?

Yeah I took it as a separate function altogether - not sure if they've got the hun tethered and running around or what's going on, to be honest.

[freeform]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

Yeah I took it as a separate function altogether - not sure if they've got the hun tethered and running around or what's going on, to be honest.

Yeah effectively it’s the hun.

(Which can be said to be what your ‘energy body’ actually is - sorry has to be vague or it’s a book’s worth of explanation)

 

So in modern western stuff you see these dream practices where the energy body lifts off your physical one and travels.

 

But you also get the ones where someone is given a coordinate and they view that place… Remote viewing I think it’s called.

 

From what I understand of it (I’m really no expert at all) - they’re both using the Hun… just in different ways.

 

There’s several aspects to the Hun - one is a kind of personal soul and another is a sort of collective soul. So I assume this is why it’s experienced differently - but similar end result.

——

 

For (spiritual) traditions that don’t actively seek siddhi development, there is a stage where a siddhi naturally arises. I call it omniscience - but basically it’s knowledge of all things…

 

Like how you’re able to go into your memory and remember what your front door looks like - someone with this siddhi is able to recollect any human (and non-human) experience, memory, thought or knowledge from all time (past, present and future). 
 

From what I understand, this is basically a complete, unobstructed connection with the ‘collective soul’ aspect of the Hun.

 

It can’t be trained or developed - it’s simply a byproduct of a certain (very high) level of attainment.

 

If you do this magical stuff, or focus on siddhi development, then the door to this level of attainment is closed. (Not that it’s likely that the vast majority of us would achieve it anyway 😅)