Sleeping qigong and lucid dreaming

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Dao Bums,

I'll do this in 4 parts:

Intro
Practices and personal experiences
Conclusion on practice

Questions for you 

Intro
Last night I finally managed 3 lucid dreams in a row!!! I am over the moon

I've been wanting to lucid dream since I was a teenager. I've gone to several tibetan buddhist workshops with renowned dream yoga lamas, read more than 3 books, watched countless interviews and read countless accounts online. Furthermore, I've been practicing daoist sleeping qigong for more than 4 years (not daily, but in practice cycles). 

I never felt I got anything from it! It only disturbed my sleep!

I had 2 lucid dreams as a teenager. I knew I was dreaming, I knew it was all a dream, yet I could neither control myself nor the dream. This was with buddhist dream yoga and "western scientific" lucid dream (setting an intention, getting up during the night to reset intention etc).

In my twenties I managed 3 lucid dreams, when I started to seriously meditate and dream journal. It was simply a byproduct. Here I could not control the environment, but I knew I was dreaming, and I could control myself.

For the past 2 weeks I remembered my almost life long desire to lucid dream, and decided to give it a go again

Practices and personal experiences

What I've been doing buddhist wise is the purification breathing before sleep, visualising a red flower in the throat chakra, chanting the syllables of each petal and also visualising them (Om Ah Nu Ta Ra). None of it gave me anything.

Daoist sleeping qigong, I learnt from master Wu. There are 2 sleeping positions, flat on the back with a mudra on your navel, and on your side with one hand on the navel and the other holding a mudra on your ear.

You then visualise certain things.

No matter how much I tried it, it has only been about 5 or 6 times I felt better sleep from it.

All the other times, it simply feels like a qigong. You can feel the qi and blood circulating in your body.

There was only 2 times in a particular retreat, where he shared 2 new visualisations he never shared before, that on the first night with the first visualisation, something really happened, and the second night with the second visualisation, I got really deep and restful sleep immediately.

However, after I got back home and continued the practice, it didn't have the same effect.

 

Lastly, the past 2 weeks, I gave it a go again with tibetan buddhist practices.... And last night it paid off!!

The game changer for me was a bön method from Dr Nida Chenagtsang (I got it from his book "tibetan art of dream analysis").

It's a 5 step visualisation before sleep. This was what allowed me to finally experience lucid dreaming! And it was awesome!

I was aware I was dreaming, I could control myself and the environment. It was super dope

Conclusion on practice
I feel there are 3 things which led to me finally experience lucid dreaming:
1) pure and open channels and energy centers (after 9 years of daily meditation and 7 years of daily qigong, now adding 14 days of daily tibetan practice, finally opened my channels and centers sufficiently)

2) sufficiently strong energy (I could actually feel that in the 3rd dream, the environment was a bit less responsive to my desired changes, I think the reason is that it actually takes some energy to control the dream)

3) I finally accumulated sufficient good karma (never hurt yourself or others, physically or mentally, help alleviate the suffering of others when you can, love and forgive)

The tibetan practices I did for the last 14 days were: 9 purification breaths, breath holding meditation from the first steps of karma mudra meditation (the non sexual ones) and the bön visualisation before sleeping. 

Questions for you 
Would you like to share your experiences?

1) How did you get to be able to lucid dream?
2) Which practices did you follow, and for how long?
3) What do you do, during lucid dreams?
4) What are your greatest "pro tips" for lucid dreaming?
5) Anything you would like to add on the subject of lucid dreaming?

May you all be blessed!

[mcoolio]

I have some trainings on lucid dreaming. Mostly basic stuff you can find everywhere. Played around it a little without success. But my sleep in general is very bad so I put it aside for a while.

 

Practices on the upper dantian makes for quite solid dreams I find. It gives them a different kind of quality. (haven't experimented much with this.) But my other dantiens are not very developed so I put upper dantien practices aside for now.

 

I heard somewhere that it is very interesting to watch yourself in a mirror during lucid dream! And you could also try to do your qigong practice during your dream.

 

[Master Logray]

If the purpose is for lucid dreaming, it is better to avoid Taoist Qigong.   It is a method in the Neidan development.  The purpose is either to substitute sitting as some people can't sit well, or to fully utilize every hour in Neidan.    When a person is more advanced, he would not dream at all.     I can sometimes alter the content of my dream while I am dreaming, not really lucid, but seems more useful.

[Mandrake]

@Nuralshamal

 

1) My LD phase was in my early twenties. I journaled extensively and from that, the lucidity just popped up. Part of it I suspect is improving recall of both the LDs you're already having, but also creating a link between the wake up-consciousness and the dream-consciousness. I came to the point where I could easily fill ten pages with dreams every morning and more and more were lucid.

Didn't have discipline though so did this in spurts.

 

3) Not much. Enjoyed myself :3  This was before I had encountered an established spiritual path so didn't have much of significance to do. Today, the situation would be very different.

 

When life permits I would like to do it again and use the lucidity for my current practices.

 

 

M

[mcoolio]

@Master Logray

 

Ahh, not sure where I saw this qigong in dream thing, can't seem to find it back in my notes.

 

I read that too that in some schools high level practitioner doesn't dream at all. But it's not the same everywhere. Other schools say that it's a waste of time to not (lucid) dream, so much stuff to do there in your dream. Why waste 1/3 of your day doing nothing. Although there are also some practices connected to being conscious in deep sleep state without dreams.

 

If you have full lucidity I believe you can also change the scene of your dream at will.

 

--------------

 

Another interesting stuff to do: going back into your nightmare :D, or look for a teacher in your dream to learn from.

 

 

 

[Nuralshamal]

@mcoolio

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

And thanks for the suggestions

@Master Logray
Yes, Master Wu mentioned the same thing about sleeping qigong. You shouldn't be "doing" things, you should be resting. That is the "natural" way.

This "complete black out sleep" is what happened to me as one of my sleeping qigong experiences during a retreat with him. It was called "shui gong" and translated as "three hearts return to one root".

Outside of the retreat, I've only experienced once (by myself) where I succeeded with this. You lie down in the appropriate posture, do the mudra, start the visualisation, and when you get to the end, you go into immediate and complete blackout sleep.

This came from the "hidden immortal" TaiJi lineage (as far as I remember).

@Mandrake
1) thanks for sharing! Yes, my few mid twenties experiences with lucid dream was also from journaling  very interesting!

3) Thanks for sharing last night, I did the same thing; when it happened (lucid), I "lived" some of the things I've always desired in real life, yet never really quite suceeded. Boy was it satisfying  I woke up extremely happy, fulfilled and full of energy.

If my dream practice starts to stabilise (I really hope so!), I will read up on useful spiritual things to do  

[Eduardo]

I have always sought to return to that dreamless sleep, that deep sleep of babies or even small ones in gestation, it is pure energy of the kidney meridian and possibly the source of health and rejuvenation.
Unfortunately, that type of restful sleep is lost as we age, if the Taoist or Yogi Adept regains his prenatal energy, he can extend his life beyond our genetic limitations.

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Dao Bums,

An update!

Last night I did the bön visualisation before sleep, and whenever I woke up to turn over during the night.... Nothing!!!

Until the morning hours, finally, something happened

I dreamt that I was on a beach in a warzone. An enemy patrol came, and I was pleading for my life with the leader. Finally, one of his men suddenly and out of nowhere shot me in the ribcage. It hurt and burnt so bad!

Then I awoke. I told myself "it's all just a dream. All the pain, fright, warzone, it's all my own mind. I am the creator of the dream." Then I fell back to sleep.

I was lucid dreaming, that I was in my childhood home. I went out, and flew through the air down the street. I noticed there were some trees, which had fallen over on the road. I said to myself "I will restart this dream, but this time, no trees fallen over, everything will be in perfect order!" I shouted like a command, and clapped my hands.

I was back in my childhood home, and about to fly out again, however, instead everything turned pitch black. "What's this?" I wondered. Then I had a sensation of falling down in the darkness. It was very strange. There was nothing in existence, everything black, yet I still clearly felt I was falling.

Then I remembered I read in a dream yoga book, that the sensation of falling indicates going down to a lower chakra. Then it happened again!

After this second fall, wherever I was "in the darkness" was slightly uncomfortable. It was like there was a kind of scary pressure around me. Then I fell again.

This time the frightening and invisible pressure around me got to the point, where I could barely take it. It was so much pressure and so scary, I felt like I couldn't take it anymore. I thought to myself "maybe I should stop it and get out?", but somehow I said "it's just a dream, it's just your own mind, relax and see what happens". Then I fell down again.

It was unbearable, but I decided to wait it out and see what happens.

Then I "flew up a level", and the scary pressure lessened.

Then I flew up again, and again, and again.

And suddenly the pressure was all gone, and I actually felt good.

I realized I had started in my solar plexus (that's where I had the dream of fallen trees). Then I fell down to the navel, which felt ok. Then I felt to the genital, which was where I questioned whether I should stop, because of the pressure. Finally, I was at the perineum, where I could not take it anymore, if I had fallen again.

Then I ascended up through the genital, navel and solar plexus. When I got to the heart, I started feeling good. In the throat, I felt so free and light. Finally, in the head, I felt wonderful. Free and light.

I was waiting for it to continue to go to the crown, but nothing happened. Instead I could kind of sense a pressure around my left eye which was really bothering me. I wanted to wait it out, but I just couldn't take the pressure. So, I woke myself up, and realized the pillow was kind of pushing into my left eye!

I also felt my whole body was electric, and as if all the chakras "I had just gone through" were more open and full of substantial power than usually, especially my genital and root.

Take homes
Make sure your sleeping position doesn't impede the flow of blood and energy in your body, nor puts uncomfortable pressure anywhere. It can disturb the dreaming.

During the night, whenever I woke up, I found myself attaching importance to the dream, telling myself I would remember it in the morning. This was with the purpose of interpreting it.

However, it was only when I "let go" of attaching importance to the dream, trying to remember it, that I became lucid. I needed to let go of this importance I attach to dreams, and instead say "it's just a dream, a product of my mind". This perspective allowed me to become lucid in the end.

Lastly, I am trying to understand why the two lowest chakras were so unbearable to be in. Either, it's simply because there's less awareness and more instinctive auto-pilot behaviour programmed into these two chakras in general, which the consciousness senses as pressure and fright.

Otherwise, it's my own personal development, where I feel good about the activities done by the navel, solar plexus, heart, throat and head chakra, and have also purified and strengthened these chakras in my daily life and living. Whereas I still have not accepted the activities of the two lower chakras completely, and therefore they are not as pure, because I surpress their activities in my daily life.

Or maybe it's a mix of both

I will see how it goes. But man! It was scary!! Really, truly frightening. And I am very seldomnly scared in my normal life. But this was very frightening.

[mcoolio]

@Nuralshamal Thanks for sharing all your experiences, it's a nice reminder to myself that LD is also something I wish to explore. Perhaps I should try again. 

 

I did play around a little bit. I find that when dream journalling, I go pretty fast from remembering almost nothing to remembering multiple dreams each night with lots of small details and this within a few days. Doing that sometimes gives me spontaneous moments of lucidity but these break of almost as soon as I become conscious of them, very unstable. This and the fact that my sleep is pretty bad makes me think I should spend a little more time doing meditation, qigong, ...

 

A theme which pops up sometimes in my dreams is heights. Not necessarily falling off stuff, but always something with heights, standing on something high, climbing, falling, ...  So perhaps there is also some chakra connection stuff? Could you maybe share the title of the dream yoga book?

 

Also very curious if people here have mastered the art of lucid dreaming and how it has helped them in their training.

 

 

 

[Nuralshamal]

@mcoolio

Yes, I completely feel you. I've also suffered from bad sleep all my life, so that's why I never got too much into lucid dreaming practices, which mess with your sleep (e.g. getting up multiple times during the night etc).

I'll respond in 4: Sleep, Journaling, Heights, Book recommendation

Sleep
I fixed my sleep with:
1) Chinese Medicine (if you can't fall asleep, it's the Heart, if you can't stay asleep, i.e. wake up several times during the night, it's the Liver). So, find out what's wrong with them (lack of yin, lack of blood, too much heat are some of the things I had) and fix it.
2) Qigong and meditation over a long period of time (especially Simplified Kundalini Yoga, meditation on the third eye chakra and the root chakra)
3) Sri Vidya aksharamala japa (reciting and visualising the sanskrit letters on the petals of chakras, opening different nadis. The nadis nam and naam on each side of the obliques muscles, related to the navel chakra open the liver channel which goes up through the liver, through the heart, the neck, the brain and into the innermost corner of each eye This was the blockage that had f'ed up my sleep for so long. When I managed to open it with the nam and naam visualisation and mantra, it made a huge difference. I've written more about it here:

4) Getting up and going to sleep at the same time every day
5) Sleeping in a completely dark room, with correct temperature (a bit colder than you'd think)
6) Eating the amino acid l-tryptophane before going to bed (a precursor to the sleep hormone melatonin, melatonin by itself was never good for me, I woke up groggy, whereas with l-tryptophane I wake up feeling well-rested)
7) Eating a healthy and sufficient diet with meals eaten "on the dot" (steady rhytm each day). Not eating enough has actually damaged my sleep several times.
8) Don't eat too close to bed time (3 hours before at least)
9) Work out (physical work out, strength, cardio and stretch, western style) at least 3-4 times per week
10) Contrast baths (sauna and ice bath, back and forth 3 times)

You don't have to do all the things, it's just a list of my own "greatest hits"  l-tryptophane and chinese herbs are the fastest and easiest, what worked the best for me.

Journaling
Yes, this really seems to be key. It's what's given me and also Mandrake lucid dreams. However, it's only now that I can control the dream, I couldn't do that before. I think it's related to the power of one's energy and the openess of channels. It takes time to build up.

Heights
This is interesting. My own dreams, since I was a teenager, always revolve around two central themes: 1) being chased, 2) being in a war, fight, combat

Maybe 60-80% of my dreams fall into the above two themes.

The rest of the time, it's a mix of things currently happening in my life, my emotions, or some hints about what close friends or family members are going through, or life advice.

I think heights could indeed be related to the chakras. Maybe it's a symbol for always staying in the upper chakras, watching and observing life and oneself, without never really "getting into it", and really living and really "feeling" the anger, the lust, the sorrow etc. Really feeling and being in touch with life, including all the "non-PC" sides

Book
The book I've recently read, which I really enjoyed, is Dr Nida Chenagtsang's "The Tibetan Art of Dream Analysis". I got it on Kindle.

The way I've interpreted dreams throughout my life has been:
1) psychological (e.g. this symbolises my father, my brother, my mother etc, this symbolises my issues around inadequacy, anger etc). This is mostly my main stay and go-to way of analysing, since I was interested in psychology from my teenage years.
2) The five elements (according to the color and object, you know which of the 5 organs are imbalanced, and you fix it with qigong and herbs. This was taught to me by Master Wu. It's very easy and practical.)
3) Channels and energy (whenever I've been in profound contact with someone, my dreams change that night, simply because I have some of their energy in my system. In this approach, dreams are simply the energies in your channels manifesting themselves as visions. So, if your channels are clean and pure, your dreams are clean and pure. If they're messed up, it's simply bad energy, foreign energy or a blockage).


 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Nuralshamal

[mcoolio]

@Nuralshamal

Thanks for sharing! Seems you put in amazing effort and consistency with the hindu practices, and now perhaps getting the rewards from that.

 

For me, some things also seem to point at liver problems from TCM point of view (but some to others also) + the waking up at night and no longer able to sleep.

 

But  I've been practicing for a while now. There is slow process going on, and I think I will be able to fix it eventually.

 

Gonna check out that book!

[Nuralshamal]

Dear Dao Bums,

An update

Last night, I did the visualisation before sleep, and whenever turning over during the night. Nothing happened... until the morning hours

I had decided I would try to get life explanation this night, if I became lucid.

This morning I dreamt I was in a bus. I knew it was a dream, I was inside my own mind, I was the creator of the dream, I was lucid. I commanded "I command my guardian angel to appear before me! I want answers!" with my hand stretched out.

I stood and concentrated on it, a blue light appeared in front of me. It took a little time to fully manifest, I simply meditated on it.

Then a blue and white light was in front of me.

I asked about the Divine meaning behind the things which had happened to me from 2014 and up until today. (I did this because 2014-2017 was some of the worst 3 years of my life).

I got an answer for something that happened in 2014, which put my heart at ease.

Then I was in the process of getting an answer for something that happened in 2015, which started to put my mind at ease. But I only managed to get about 70% of the answer, then unfortunately I was woken up by noises in my house!!

The explanations were not all that surprising, but it still "made things fall into place", in my heart and in my mind.

I am surprised it's only such a short period in the morning hours I can become lucid. I thought the ability would build up a bit faster from day to day. Instead it has decreased a little bit the past couple of days. It's becoming shorter and shorter. Maybe it really does take a lot of energy out of you?

I will experiment more and see how it goes

God bless!

Edited July 22, 2022 by Nuralshamal

[Shadao]

On 20/07/2022 at 5:27 AM, Nuralshamal said:

1) How did you get to be able to lucid dream?
2) Which practices did you follow, and for how long?
3) What do you do, during lucid dreams?
4) What are your greatest "pro tips" for lucid dreaming?
5) Anything you would like to add on the subject of lucid dreaming?

1)So far I know not how I got to lucid dream, as those were very few times.In most cases I was able to control something/myself but wasn't aware that it was a dream, I think there was only one time where I was conscious that it was a dream.

 

2)None, the times it happened it just happened.

 

3)On the times I could control something, I would do things considered impossible in real life, like flying around(once with wings, other times without it), or use/control powers like telekinesis, force-field(of sorts) or even the elements of nature.

Once, just once, I interacted with some person/being and they taught me "the secret of phasing" by literally grabbing my hand and pushing an object through it and moving it around in my hand.

 

To this day I can still recall that sensation vividly.

 

4)Considering I never did a thing I guess one "tip" would be to have an intense desire over a subject or something you want to dream of, preferably for a few days.Then one day "it'll just happen".

 

5)It really is the world where anything is possible...go wild.

[doc benway]

On 7/20/2022 at 4:27 AM, Nuralshamal said:

1) How did you get to be able to lucid dream?

I've had the occasional lucid dream since childhood. I then began practicing in an organized and devloted way after getting exposed to dream and sleep teachings from Yungdrung Bön.

 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:27 AM, Nuralshamal said:

2) Which practices did you follow, and for how long?

I follow the Bön teachings on dream and sleep from the Mother Tantra. I practiced dream yoga in a dedicated way for about 3 years and then sleep yoga for another 2 years after that. I haven't been practicing either recently but will go back to them periodically.

 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:27 AM, Nuralshamal said:

3) What do you do, during lucid dreams?

It varies quite a bit depending on the circumstances I find myself in. I enjoy flying very much. I seek teachings from masters. I meditate. I experiment with traveling. I play around with mirrors. I do the exercises we are taught to develop stability and control of the dream environment. I try to resolve violent and frightening dreams into peaceful ones. I try to dissolve the dreams to access the clear light of sleep. Endless possibilities. 

 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:27 AM, Nuralshamal said:

4) What are your greatest "pro tips" for lucid dreaming?

Abstain from drugs and alcohol, marijuana in particular.

Create a sacred, electronics-free sleeping environment.

Wind down slowly at the day's end, eating a light dinner, and disconnecting from all electronics for at least a few hours, do some supportive and mentally cleansing practices before bed, approach sleep as a sacred and precious activity.

Make your daytime practice every bit as important as the sleep-time practice itself.

Approach the lucid dream as sacred - it is fine to treat lucid dreams as entertainment if that is your only objective but I feel the dream world opens more fully to a more reverential approach, much as one would do for example with something like ayahuasca. 

 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:27 AM, Nuralshamal said:

5) Anything you would like to add on the subject of lucid dreaming?

Consistency, persistence, and patience are key for me. It took me a long time to begin having regular and somewhat predictable lucid dreams, nearly 2 years of regular practice. If you can afford to do it in the setting of a prolonged retreat under the guidance of a master it will come much faster. It's challenging to develop the skills and supportive environment on your own, living in the busy, over-stimulated Western world. It is highly dependent on your emotional, physical, and psychological condition. It is very beneficial to spend time clearing obstacles from your life before engaging with dream and sleep practices. 

[Nuralshamal]

@Shadao

Thanks for sharing!

Me2, on my first truly lucid dream I also went... wild

Great pointers 

[Nuralshamal]

@steve

Thanks for your detailed answers and responses!!!

I will definitely check up on Yungdrung Bön. 

It was a Bön visualisation that led to my own breakthrough in lucid dream, so I wouldn't mind checking out some more Bön  

Kudos to your dedicated practice!! It fuels my own motivation to keep going

[doc benway]

If you want more on Bön dream yoga, this is a good book- 

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Tibetan_Yogas_of_Dream_and_Sleep.html?id=yjAtDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Here is a good series of free online teachings  -

https://cybersangha.net/dream-yoga-deepening-your-awareness-night-and-day-teaching-series/

 

And a great paid course -

https://www.glidewing.com/twr/dreamyoga_home.html

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

I did a lot of LD in my twenties, primarily inspired by Carlos Castaneda’s books. One of the tips I found very useful - suggestion before going to sleep to “wake up” in the dreams that come. And also, when dreaming, remember to look at my palms. It worked like a charm. But it took a bit of time. Initially I’d wake up and immediately write down my dreams in a dream journal.   

 

One day, I remembered to look at my palms and that triggered the realization that I was dreaming. I became lucid. I flew high in the sky, and initially I’d forget that it was a dream and start to free fall, and then half way down, I’d remember and fly again. I met teachers, got some lessons. Worked on controlling the dream environments. Dr Stephen LaBerge’s books were very helpful. Also the Tibetan book of dream yoga was helpful as well. 
 

But one of my my most powerful dream teachings was after i had stopped trying to induce LDs. 
 

Many years later (almost 2 decades later), the lucidity came back as a result of nondual self-inquiry. There was a breakthrough after which I remained aware through dreaming and deep sleep. The clarity of this kind surpassed manifold the clarity of lucid dreams in my experience. 

[Nuralshamal]

@@steve

Thanks for the links, I'm checking it out immediately

[Nuralshamal]

@dwai

Thanks for sharing!

Very interesting about the non-dual self inquiry.

One of my sleeping qigong experiences was experiencing the body go to sleep, but the mind staying awake. Then I experienced what it is that happens in our body during sleep, that restores it. How the qi and blood circulate to different places at different times during the night. How a portion of our jing is "taken from the bank" and circulated into our body to rebuild it etc.

Later that night, after many hours of observing the qi and blood moving in to body, and jing being added into the mix, my mind went into deep sleep. But just like you mentioned, I was aware of being in the deep sleep, this primordial awareness, conscioussness or being (or could even be described as non-being). It's hard to put into words, but it felt like being reduced to the last, irreducible part of "me" or simple "is-ness", or something even beyond "is-ness".

Very cool  thanks for sharing! 

[Nuralshamal]

This lucid dreaming thread is really taking off!

Thank you everyone for taking time to chip in and share your experiences and insights