Stillness vs Visualization meditation

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi guys,

 

How many practice stillness, emptiness, visualization AND other types of meditations etc?

 

What do you feel that these different types of meditation do for you and where do they lead to, the same place or not?

 

Is enlightenment living in the NOW or later when we die or only if we become a buddha or god?

 

What does visualizing do for you that the others wont and vise versa?

 

Just a thought!!

 

WYG

[Guest winpro07]

all paths lead to source. we are all expressions of source. we are all seeking the same root -the same place

[Spectrum]

Emptiness can bring to surface awareness natural physiological process we are not usually aware of because thoughts overlay this original consciousness with esp. emotively attached thoughts creating a vibrational texture known as "me". Answer the question Who am I?

 

Or in a meditative sense what occurs pscyhosomatically while falling into sleep or awakening, thoughts and physical stimulus fuse into a single fabric known as dreaming.

 

The question might then be raised about the state of mind/body of sung, and it's relationship to wuji, sung is the psychophysical manfestation of wuji in any posture. How does wuji unfold into yin-yang, replicate again into taiji, bloom into the eight, and then return to wuji? ... physically? I can hardly believe it myself. I love the classical arts.

 

There is the common vernacular of the body philosophies in which we can relate across, after that the forms in which we appear either align with these body koans or they do not.

 

synthenasia seeks within

without withdraw and blend

in the beginning is the end

[sheng zhen]

Ive been doing all kinds of visualizations for many years. But now, the last year and a half Ive only been doing stillness meditation.

 

Stillness is a lot better for my progress and my life is a lot more balanced. I think the ability to be still should come first, then visualization can be good. But Ive done it the other way around, and I think many people do it the other way around. Visualization first and then, maby, stillness if the visualizations bring them anywhere.

 

The trouble with visualization is that the images is created by the ego. It happens within the limited consciousness we are already in. It would do nothing more than to confirm these limitations. We need stillness to be able to go beyond our selves.

 

The other trouble with visualization is that our reality is mostly created within our own mind. If we use our mind to create other realities, we just make the real reality harder to see.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I think some Buddhist meds are visualizing the deity and buddhas with the moon crest etc would this be bad or falso or egotistical?

 

What about Kunlun cloud med and water visualization med, red phoniex?

 

Since the mind is avery powerful tool is it better to use it or just be empty?

 

 

My practice is mostly stillness and dan tian, i also have a cloud meditation when doing some certain chi kung movements.

 

WYG

[sheng zhen]

I think some Buddhist meds are visualizing the deity and buddhas with the moon crest etc would this be bad or falso or egotistical?

 

What about Kunlun cloud med and water visualization med, red phoniex?

 

Since the mind is avery powerful tool is it better to use it or just be empty?

My practice is mostly stillness and dan tian, i also have a cloud meditation when doing some certain chi kung movements.

 

WYG

Im not actually saying visualizations are bad. Just that having all spiritual progress based on visualization techniques is not going to bring you anyware but into more illusions.

 

Its like the technique to levitate - visualize it! Does it work? NO! You get the feeling, but you dont really levitate. And then whats the point? Visualizing thunder out of your hands, does it work?? You get a lot of senzations and amazing experiences and feelings, but does it really work? It just gets stronger within your own limited prison of illusory worldview.

 

I have done my share of visualizations and it has only brought me to the point where I realize it is not getting me anywhere. And that the effect og visualization gets a thousandfold stronger if I am in stillness first.

 

Most practises are based on visualization so this does piss off a lot of people who base their whole progress on some visualization learned ona weekend workshop or through an ebook. Especially those visualizing auras, meridians, qi-flow, merkabahs, light and love, heavenly experiences, etc, and by that believe they actually are close to being enlightened.

 

If visualization was that effective there would be a lot more enlightened people in the spiritual community around the world. And a lot less delutional people.

 

Im not discarding all visualizations. Just the belief that visualization is the important part. Atleast thats my point of view

[Guest sykkelpump]

i have tried visualization,mantra,observing the mind without involving in thougts but just let go of them.And I know use Buddas method,observing the breath.They all have given me similar effects as they all reduces the mind activity.But I think observing the breath is the best because you dont use your mind to create a visualisation or a mantra or something else to focus on.you focus on something that already are there.the breath.So my point is in the other meditations you need mind activity to create something to focus on,but at the same time you want to stop the mind activity.

[Ian]

i have tried visualization,mantra,observing the mind without involving in thougts but just let go of them.And I know use Buddas method,observing the breath.They all have given me similar effects as they all reduces the mind activity.But I think observing the breath is the best because you dont use your mind to create a visualisation or a mantra or something else to focus on.you focus on something that already are there.the breath.So my point is in the other meditations you need mind activity to create something to focus on,but at the same time you want to stop the mind activity.

 

Agreed, but even paying attention to what's already there, be it breath or sensations caused by gravity, can often require an effort of will.

 

It's what my teacher calls creating limited karma to interrupt unlimited karma. Like building a boat to get across because, hopefully, it's easier to get out of the boat later than it is to learn to walk on water.

 

Personally, I'm drifting to the conclusion that visualisation is a bad idea, full stop. But I do realise that other people are much more able at it than I am, to the point where pretty solid stuff seems to happen.

 

I don't know if that means they've crossed a line into actualisation or whether they're just even more able to delude themselves than I am to delude myself.

[Smile]

It's easier and faster to go for a direct method which is an observation of what is, not what I think is better for me or any fantasy other people constructed for me.

[sheng zhen]

Agreed, but even paying attention to what's already there, be it breath or sensations caused by gravity, can often require an effort of will.

 

It's what my teacher calls creating limited karma to interrupt unlimited karma. Like building a boat to get across because, hopefully, it's easier to get out of the boat later than it is to learn to walk on water.

 

Personally, I'm drifting to the conclusion that visualisation is a bad idea, full stop. But I do realise that other people are much more able at it than I am, to the point where pretty solid stuff seems to happen.

 

I don't know if that means they've crossed a line into actualisation or whether they're just even more able to delude themselves than I am to delude myself.

One thing with visualization is that it can be used constructively and destructivly.

 

T.ex. there has been done brain research stating the the image of eating an apple stimulates the same brain areas as the real eating of the apple. The images we make, or any sensory stimulation we create in our mind, does really stimulate and affect the physical body.

 

If you are stressed out, just visualize yourself laying on a beach with a warm breeze blowing and listen to the waves spalshin to the shore. Depending on how well you visualize it, or sense it with all senses, it will stimulate the same hormonal release and ease the stress the same way as the real experience.

 

It is a fantastic tool for a lot of applications. But just not for realizing reality.

[Spectrum]

Stillness is a lot better for my progress and my life is a lot more balanced. I think the ability to be still should come first, then visualization can be good. But Ive done it the other way around, and I think many people do it the other way around. Visualization first and then, maby, stillness if the visualizations bring them anywhere.

 

I consider moving meditations as the natural root for using visualizations as a "practical" technique. There is no need to visualize when you're right there, yet even in learning to do, you must visualize while learning, even if it's an image which occurs from a somatic sensation, but it still puts the egg before the chicken, as you practice you hatch it, you're the chicken out of the egg you've sat on all that time "visualizing" what you are doing ... then suddenly you are doing it without thinking, that is the the first glimpse of wuji inside taiji, stillness within motion. Then learning to forget comes into the play, and visualizations are aligned with the natural attunements experienced during practice. In this way feeling is put before visualizing, and visual phenomenon is not confused with "visualizations".

 

The relationship between movement and stillness can be cultivated by stretching the experience at each end of the spectrum. Absolute movement feeds absolute stillness. Absolute stillness feeds absolute movement. At the foundation is wuji. Practically played out this is the manifestation of sung.

[sheng zhen]

Then learning to forget comes into the play, and visualizations are aligned with the natural attunements experienced during practice.

I read in a book yesterday about a taoist saying "its hard to be clever, and hard to be foolish, but even harder yet to go from cleverness to foolishness"

[jeffgrove]

There is a place for visualisation and but I think the west puts to much focus on it, usually found in new age, or advanced type meditations.

 

I have heard that visualisation is an advanced technique and if used by the inexperinced can easiler lead down the road of imagined achievements rather then actual progress.

 

Personally I have found it is better to let the feelings arise when they are ready using awareness from stillness type meditations. The more you investigate these new feelings the more different parts of your body "come alive with energy" and you start to relise where certain points on your body are and energy pathways by focussing awareness. Eventually this leads to actual seeing instead of using the imagination in the first place.

 

Getting to attached to new feelings can be just as misleading as visualisations as well.

[SpringForestDragon]

Stillness for me. Sometimes I also will do a japa meditation.

[Spectrum]

...Eventually this leads to actual seeing instead of using the imagination in the first place.

 

Getting to attached to new feelings can be just as misleading as visualisations as well.

 

Here here another breath of fresh air for this man!

[rex]

Stillness meditation is of course fantastic. So too is visualization if the mental form created acts as a medium of communication and becomes ensouled with whatever quality the higher aspiration seeks.

Edited May 3, 2008 by rex

[de_paradise]

Visualization works well for me, wish it didnt because I really find it taxing. Thats probably the reason why it works so well-it engrosses my attention so much because I have to continually put so much effort into keeping the shapes. Aside from that, the attention is directed outside of the body (except in white skeleton), a real disconnect with whatever emotional state I have at the moment. And stillness doesnt have that automatic disconnect.

 

Also, I think we have a giga-ton of other attachments; a modern western meditator is likely not to get attached to the object of visualization, such as this or that particular deity.

[exorcist_1699]

Comparing with all known methods, the Zen Buddhist way should be the hardest; it relies on nothing, starts from nowhere , and, preaches even talking about emptiness /nothingness is a barrier; In some sense, I think , the braver a religion in getting rid of formality , the closer a religion approaches Reality ..

 

Where can you find a religion in which its followers dare to burn the statue of its own god/God just for smashing formalities ?

Edited May 4, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Spectrum]

even talking about emptiness /nothingness is a barrier;

Edited May 3, 2008 by Spectrum

[exorcist_1699]

Some religion asks people to pray ( another form of meditation ) many times a day, to pray at certain time a day , or pray in some costume , these all are formalities,incapable of leading them to Reality .

 

( by the way, calling the name of our God/Lord is , in fact, another kind of visualization, which is also the reason why some priests are capable of initiating healing power ).

 

Taoist and Zen style is something simpler ; they know that formalities are for the crowd, the simplest is for the intelligent.The better we get rid of formalities , the closer we approach Reality; the braver we get rid of trivial , the better we grasp the truth.

 

I think, the term stillness seems misleading , the essence of life or spiritual cultivation is vigorous and dynamic, stillness can only be a short stage of cultivation we experience , not the end ;afterwards, something huge and lively should arise,otherwise we are stuck in it...

Edited May 9, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[rain]

Stillness for me. Sometimes I also will do a japa meditation.

 

 

stillness if lucky.visualizations just bring on more mindchatter. I dont want to go anywhere anymore.

 

meditation in movement. everyday.

[Spectrum]

An interesting thing about working around live music is there are some associated feelings of internal 'flow' that usually occur after a couple hours of milling around the theater space. They are not identical to the internal sensations that follow continual taiji practice, but there are some subtle similarities. In this regard I have not experienced a level of internal "visualization" that ever produced these sensations... not saying it's outside of the possibilities, like spending a couple hours standing in rushing water, I have felt similar during and after practice, still and moving, and also after a chi gung treatment from Sei Gung.

 

Also i notice that some spots that I would usually clear w/ practice, are having a tendency to 'quiver' during or after a show and then release, making practice time more enjoyable as there is a slightly shorter warmup period . Is there such a thing as cheating in chi gung practice?

Edited May 4, 2008 by Spectrum

[WhiteTiger]

I would like to add to the conversation.

 

many if not all Buddhist practices (at a high enough level) bring you to clarity "the sight" having complete and total insight (or achieving it at some point or another) = Awareness of some kind

 

Taoists at higher levels seek clerity, Insight. seeing on the plane with no substance nor form. Where the Tao is clearly able to be understood = Awareness of conscious mind and the understanding of choices that you make (and often times not very smart Taoists do actions not based on understanding situations with clerity which brings them to bad choice which bring bad circumstances)

 

I know very little if anything about Hinduism but I'm sure they in there own clarity or insight in a way or form. Also same with true teachings of Confucius and not just the ordered way Confucius Chinese culture is supposed to be conducted according to Confucius laws. = Awareness of some kind

 

So in this respect they all seek clarity or some form of awareness. In this respect they all have this goal. Weather the end all goal is to actually to become Immortal, enlightened, reach Nirvana, or whatever (which I'm told again and again are all different things, despite what many others believe or thought of it of those ideas) They have different purposes and different goals achieving different things.

 

My end all point is (what i believe to be quite clear but i shall put it into words) All these paths and many other paths attempt to put us with Awareness... seeming in some sort of way to become enlightened (this definition now encompasses many different types of considerations and uses of the word enlightened and is not speaking of a specific one)

 

I hope this actually helps on the matter

 

Some religion asks people to pray ( another form of meditation ) many times a day, to pray at certain time a day , or pray in some costume , these all are formalities,incapable of leading them to Reality .

 

I can personally speak about Judaism, many of our customs, like praying for water we drink and food we eat is to humble ourselves. I think the the true understanding of practices in Judaism is really misunderstood. They do have reasons for doing everything, but that isn't really the heart of a reason you do it... its the doing it that brings about the experience that is the heart of why you do it. (Although in Judaism they believe in the practice of studying all your life, and is one of the main reasons why I believe they have survived for so long. Knowledge is power!)

 

Judaism I think at the heart of it is always misunderstood. The only true understanding is when you either practice it with very very religious practitioners that already embody the religion the way its supposed to and personally I rarely see many practitioners that teach or preach the much more deeper understandings. Weather the true meaning is hidden in our traditions is the real question.

[宁]

And speaking of the Devil....

 

What do you all understand by Stillness? Im sure there is a different approach on it in every system you meet.

 

Without a proper definition on it, there is no proper understanding, i feel.

 

Stillness of what?

[shontonga]

And speaking of the Devil....

 

What do you all understand by Stillness? Im sure there is a different approach on it in every system you meet.

 

Without a proper definition on it, there is no proper understanding, i feel.

 

Stillness of what?

 

 

 

stillness allows

my dust to settle

 

 

... then that

is "all"

 

.

 

?

 

 

 

stillness ='s the space between all things

 

what connects all.

where noise "seems" to disconnects ,

though at times harmoniously : )

 

even in the midst of all the crazy runnin around

stillness can be found.

 

...some folks walk with it so clearly

it blows this mind !

but others seem

like they fight so hard to avoid it?

 

 

 

 

What great questions are posed by all here.

 

thank you.

 

 

Shon

Edited May 9, 2008 by shontonga