taoism and sufism

[terry]

the most interesting text in the nt

 

 

john 18:38

 

Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? 

[terry]

I think that asking about the nature of light is seminal. 

 

For one thing there is the nature of light, of that mental faculty which enables us to "see" in the sense of understanding.

 

For another there is the extended metaphor of the physical sense of an eye perceiving scattered photons being applied to the activity of consciousness, the very essence of consciousness. All self-knowlege involves metaphor, in a sense metaphor is light and the word the basic nature of reality.

 

It is not references or quotations (as such) here that are relevant to me but the impressions of other meditators and insights they might like to share from what they have thought themselves or digested from others about spiritual mental emotional light.

 

Light. Extended metaphors. Lucifer in paradise lost.

 

 

 

 

 

from the marriage of heaven and hell, william blake

 

 

The history of this is written in
Paradise Lost, and the Governor or
Reason is called Messiah.

 

And the original Archangel or pos-
sessor of the command of the heavenly
host is called the Devil, or Satan, and
his children are called Sin and Death.

But in the book of Job, Milton's
Messiah is called Satan.

 

For this history has been adopted by
both parties.

 

It indeed appeared to Reason as if
desire was cast out, but the Devil's
account is, that the Messiah fell, and
formed a heaven of what he stole from
the abyss.

 

This is shown in the Gospel, where
he prays to the Father to send the
Comforter or desire that Reason may
have ideas to build on, the Jehovah
of the Bible being no other than he
who dwells in flaming fire. Know
that after Christ's death he became
Jehovah.

 

But in Milton, the Father is Destiny,
the Son a ratio of the five senses, and
the Holy Ghost vacuum!

 

Note. - The reason Milton wrote
in fetters when he wrote of Angels
and God, and at Liberty when of
Devils and Hell, is because he was
a true poet, and of the Devil's party
without knowing it.
 

 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

…  Do you know what I am about to say to you ? "

 

'No we do not . "

 

… How then could I speak to people as ignorant as you ! "   …

Why would that make them “ignorant”? Nobody ever can know what someone else is going to say, that’s just normal.

And I would have thought it’s precisely the ignorant people that need to be talked to (the rest of us make up our own minds).

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Cobie

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, terry said:

 

aloha nungali,

 

does god have real knowledge, or is she faking it?

 

terry

 

 

God has a lot more than real knowledge , my friend .... as she is also Sophia ... Wisdom. And  Wisdom is beyond Understanding . And Understanding is beyond Knowledge .

 

Do you know of ,  'Fatima - The Rope Maker ? ' .

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, terry said:

the most interesting text in the nt

 

 

john 18:38

 

Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? 

 

 

 

Well, according to 'Our Master' ;

 

أنا الحَقيقة

 

[Nungali]

 

... which , apparently , is the Supreme Sin .

 

So I must be a ' heretic ' .   

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, terry said:

I think that asking about the nature of light is seminal. 

 

For one thing there is the nature of light, of that mental faculty which enables us to "see" in the sense of understanding.

 

For another there is the extended metaphor of the physical sense of an eye perceiving scattered photons being applied to the activity of consciousness, the very essence of consciousness. All self-knowlege involves metaphor, in a sense metaphor is light and the word the basic nature of reality.

 

It is not references or quotations (as such) here that are relevant to me but the impressions of other meditators and insights they might like to share from what they have thought themselves or digested from others about spiritual mental emotional light.

 

Light. Extended metaphors. Lucifer in paradise lost.

 

L. V . X . 

 

 

 

' Light in Extension.'

 

 

 

8 hours ago, terry said:

from the marriage of heaven and hell, william blake

 

 

The history of this is written in
Paradise Lost, and the Governor or
Reason is called Messiah.

 

And the original Archangel or pos-
sessor of the command of the heavenly
host is called the Devil, or Satan, and
his children are called Sin and Death.

But in the book of Job, Milton's
Messiah is called Satan.

 

For this history has been adopted by
both parties.

 

It indeed appeared to Reason as if
desire was cast out, but the Devil's
account is, that the Messiah fell, and
formed a heaven of what he stole from
the abyss.

 

This is shown in the Gospel, where
he prays to the Father to send the
Comforter or desire that Reason may
have ideas to build on, the Jehovah
of the Bible being no other than he
who dwells in flaming fire. Know
that after Christ's death he became
Jehovah.

 

But in Milton, the Father is Destiny,
the Son a ratio of the five senses, and
the Holy Ghost vacuum!

 

Note. - The reason Milton wrote
in fetters when he wrote of Angels
and God, and at Liberty when of
Devils and Hell, is because he was
a true poet, and of the Devil's party
without knowing it.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

Why would that make them “ignorant”? Nobody ever can know what someone else is going to say, that’s just normal.

And I would have thought it’s precisely the ignorant people that need to be talked to (the rest of us make up our own minds).

 

 

 

Okay  .   Good .

 

Its like a Koan .    Now, the  other 6 meanings ?

[-_sometimes]

On 01/08/2022 at 10:45 AM, Pak_Satrio said:

Hey! I’m Muslim but not Sufi. Currently reading through “Taoism and Sufism” and enjoying it. @Nuralshamal might have some interesting things to share as he learned from some Sufi masters if I’m not mistaken.

I'm very surprised to hear this! What type of Muslim? A specific sect you consider yourself a part of?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

45 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

I'm very surprised to hear this! What type of Muslim? A specific sect you consider yourself a part of?

I’m Sunni. Wouldn’t really consider myself part of any sect but technically it would be Shafi’i.

[-_sometimes]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I’m Sunni. Wouldn’t really consider myself part of any sect but technically it would be Shafi’i.

How do your views differ from the salafis/wahhabis? By this I mean do you ascribe to the view of sharia law as set down in the Sahih Hadith and Qur'an, along with acting according to what is set in those?

[terry]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

God has a lot more than real knowledge , my friend .... as she is also Sophia ... Wisdom. And  Wisdom is beyond Understanding . And Understanding is beyond Knowledge .

 

Do you know of ,  'Fatima - The Rope Maker ? ' .

 

understanding is far beneath knowledge, and knowing that is wisdom

 

 

from thomas merton the way of chuang tzu

 

 

 

WHEN KNOWLEDGE WENT NORTH 

 

 

Knowledge wandered north 
Looking for Tao, over the Dark Sea, 
And up the Invisible Mountain. 
There on the mountain he met 
Non-Doing, the Speechless One. 

He inquired:

"Please inform me, Sir, 
By what system of thought 
And what technique of meditation
 I can apprehend Tao?
 By what renunciation 
Or what solitary retirement 
May I rest in Tao? 
Where must I start, 
What road must I follow 
To reach Tao?" 

Such were his three questions.

 Non-Doing, the Speechless One, 
Made no reply. 
Not only that, 
He did not even know

How to reply! 

 

Knowledge swung south

To the Bright Sea 
And climbed the Luminous Mountain 
Called "Doubt's End." 
Here he met 
Act-on-Impulse, the Inspired Prophet, 
And asked the same questions. 

"Ah," cried the Inspired One, 
"I have the answers, and I will reveal them!" 
But just as he was about to tell everything, 
He forgot all he had in mind. 
Knowledge got no reply. 

 

So Knowledge went at last 
To the palace of Emperor Ti, 
And asked his questions of Ti. 

Ti replied: "To exercise no-thought 
And follow no-way of meditation 
Is the first step toward understanding Tao. 
To dwell nowhere 
And rest in nothing

Is the first step toward resting in Tao. 
To start from nowhere 
And follow no road

Is the first step toward attaining Tao." 

 

Knowledge replied: 
"You know this 
And now I know it.
 But the other two, 
They did not know it. 
What about that? 
Who is right?"  

 

Ti replied: 
Only Non-Doing, the Speechless One, 
Was perfectly right. 
He did not know. 
Act-on-Impulse, the Inspired Prophet, 
Only seemed right 
Because he had forgotten. 
As for us, 
We come nowhere near being right, 
Since we have the answers. 
"For he who knows does not speak, 
He who speaks does not know"  
And "The Wise Man gives instruction 
Without the use of speech." 

 

This story got back 
To Act-on-Impulse 
Who agreed with 
Ti's Way of putting it. 

 

It is not reported 
That Non-Doing ever heard of the matter 
Or made any comment.

 

 

[Cobie]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Okay  .   Good .

 

Its like a Koan .    Now, the  other 6 meanings ?

Thanks for the answer. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

9 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

How do your views differ from the salafis/wahhabis? By this I mean do you ascribe to the view of sharia law as set down in the Sahih Hadith and Qur'an, along with acting according to what is set in those?

I do not agree with the salafis/wahhabis in any way, shape or form. I see them basically as the Amish except with oil and modern technology, bringing the Muslim world backwards. Islam has evolved constantly over the years wherever it went, but the salafis/wahhabis want to impose their version of “correct” Islam which is their interpretation of what they think it was like back in the Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) time. 
 

So I’m Muslim because my mother is Indonesian, and in Indonesia Islam was spread by Sufis, who believed in syncretism and always combined Islam with whatever local beliefs were there. I believe this is the best way because when Islam first started it was syncretic, and learning from many different cultures instead of suppressing them. The biggest shame that happened to the Muslim world is the British giving the Saudi family their own kingdom (which is barely over a century old, I wouldn’t consider them a legit blue blooded royal family) and giving them Mecca. Now everyone associates Muslims with them while they desecrate holy sites in Mecca, the Middle East and beyond.

 

So in short, no I don’t believe everything needs to be followed word for word as it is. If you look at the Quran lots of the later verses contradict the earlier ones! This is because it is meant to be followed chronologically as things changed during Muhammad’s (pubh) lifetime. So why should we not update things during our lifetimes too?

[terry]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Do you know of ,  'Fatima - The Rope Maker ? ' .

 

enlighten me

[Cobie]

6 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

… syncretism …

A very informative post, thanks.  
 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Cobie

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, terry said:

 

understanding is far beneath knowledge, and knowing that is wisdom

 

 

from thomas merton the way of chuang tzu

 

 

 

WHEN KNOWLEDGE WENT NORTH 

 

 

Knowledge wandered north 
Looking for Tao, over the Dark Sea, 
And up the Invisible Mountain. 
There on the mountain he met 
Non-Doing, the Speechless One. 

He inquired:

"Please inform me, Sir, 
By what system of thought 
And what technique of meditation
 I can apprehend Tao?
 By what renunciation 
Or what solitary retirement 
May I rest in Tao? 
Where must I start, 
What road must I follow 
To reach Tao?" 

Such were his three questions.

 Non-Doing, the Speechless One, 
Made no reply. 
Not only that, 
He did not even know

How to reply! 

 

Knowledge swung south

To the Bright Sea 
And climbed the Luminous Mountain 
Called "Doubt's End." 
Here he met 
Act-on-Impulse, the Inspired Prophet, 
And asked the same questions. 

"Ah," cried the Inspired One, 
"I have the answers, and I will reveal them!" 
But just as he was about to tell everything, 
He forgot all he had in mind. 
Knowledge got no reply. 

 

So Knowledge went at last 
To the palace of Emperor Ti, 
And asked his questions of Ti. 

Ti replied: "To exercise no-thought 
And follow no-way of meditation 
Is the first step toward understanding Tao. 
To dwell nowhere 
And rest in nothing

Is the first step toward resting in Tao. 
To start from nowhere 
And follow no road

Is the first step toward attaining Tao." 

 

Knowledge replied: 
"You know this 
And now I know it.
 But the other two, 
They did not know it. 
What about that? 
Who is right?"  

 

Ti replied: 
Only Non-Doing, the Speechless One, 
Was perfectly right. 
He did not know. 
Act-on-Impulse, the Inspired Prophet, 
Only seemed right 
Because he had forgotten. 
As for us, 
We come nowhere near being right, 
Since we have the answers. 
"For he who knows does not speak, 
He who speaks does not know"  
And "The Wise Man gives instruction 
Without the use of speech." 

 

This story got back 
To Act-on-Impulse 
Who agreed with 
Ti's Way of putting it. 

 

It is not reported 
That Non-Doing ever heard of the matter 
Or made any comment.

 

 

 

I guess then , no  -   you have not heard of Fatima the Rope Maker .

 

 

 

 

Its a fairly common realisation in more than one system of philosophy ... and I think that trumps the above piece of 'obscure Daoism'  -

 

Let's have some  REAL demonstration other than citing some prose  .   Which by the way did demonstrate that knowledge was superior ... superior over    Dao ? No, as 'Non doing, the speechless one made no reply  (of course     )  . It was superior over 'act on impulse '  ... again , no great surprise  there .  And knowledge meets the Emperor Ti .  Nowhere in that story is knowledge  shown to be superior to Understanding and Wisdom .

 

BUT it did cite  : 

 

" For he who knows does not speak, He who speaks does not know" ; 

 

Cobie might find that interesting , in relation to his post queering Nasruddin's action regarding the sermon's subject matter .

 

 

 

Knowledge is a collection of facts ... thats it . There is no hint of 'application'. Its just knowledge . 

 

"Knowledge can be defined as awareness of facts or as practical skills, and may also refer to familiarity with objects or situations. Knowledge of facts, also referred to as propositional knowledge, is often defined as true belief that is distinct from opinion or guesswork by virtue of justification "

 

Has philosophy been lost on us ? Have we been not paying attention  to all the advice we have been given about 'knowledge'  ... being used in isolation :    a little knowledge is a dangerous thing .  What good is knowledge without other forces moderating it ?  One then ends up with knowledge about the intimate creation and destruction of matter , and what do we do  ..... develop ways to nuke out whole countries and civilisations with it !

 

We ALL realise, to some extent , knowledge can be inefficient and dangerous . Would you teach a small child how to fire a gun, or any other person  to fire a gun  without any other moderations ?

 

Sorry, knowledge is a false God that modern man worships .

 

Beyond knowledge is Understanding .... or it should be and knowledge should be moderated by understanding . I would have thought that would be blindingly obvious ?   I  have knowledge of what  fulminate of mercury can do  , but without understanding of the  proper process in handling it ...... KABLAM ! 

 

Understanding is realising  the effects the application of knowledge will or can have .

 

Wisdom is beyond that and is about realising the effects and when to apply knowledge, considering the effects it might have .  Applying knowledge with understanding so it has the  wanted effect .

 

Solomon's famous wise decision would not have been wise at all if the  women had said , go ahead and cut the baby in two, and the  baby was cut in two -  as he applied his 'trick' at the wrong time and with the wrong people . But he judged the situation right . He was presented with the knowledge and facts of the case ( although disparate ), and his own knowledge garnered previously.

 

He HAD to have Understanding beyond that disparate  knowledge  as the 'knowledge' / information he was being given was in conflict .  He understood the situation and  what was playing out .  His wisdom was in considering all this and making the right decision which led to a better outcome .   Which is why Solomon was said to be wise .

 

Anyway . Dont take my word for it  . Understanding and Wisdom are   firmly cemented 'up there' beyond the 'Abyss of Knowledge' -  in the Supernal Triangle ... just below 'Godhead'.

 

 

                                   

 

And getting through that Abyss , with humankind's knowledge , through to Understanding and Wisdom  ie our application of our knowledge , I would venture to say , is Humankind's biggest challenge  for this age .

 

So please stop putting 'knowledge' above them .... on the crown of God .  Especially at this  low stage of our development .

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I do not agree with the salafis/wahhabis in any way, shape or form. I see them basically as the Amish except with oil and modern technology, bringing the Muslim world backwards. Islam has evolved constantly over the years wherever it went, but the salafis/wahhabis want to impose their version of “correct” Islam which is their interpretation of what they think it was like back in the Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) time. 
 

So I’m Muslim because my mother is Indonesian, and in Indonesia Islam was spread by Sufis, who believed in syncretism and always combined Islam with whatever local beliefs were there. I believe this is the best way because when Islam first started it was syncretic, and learning from many different cultures instead of suppressing them. The biggest shame that happened to the Muslim world is the British giving the Saudi family their own kingdom (which is barely over a century old, I wouldn’t consider them a legit blue blooded royal family) and giving them Mecca. Now everyone associates Muslims with them while they desecrate holy sites in Mecca, the Middle East and beyond.

 

So in short, no I don’t believe everything needs to be followed word for word as it is. If you look at the Quran lots of the later verses contradict the earlier ones! This is because it is meant to be followed chronologically as things changed during Muhammad’s (pubh) lifetime. So why should we not update things during our lifetimes too?

 

Great post ! 

 

Sometimes I think Sufism 'was born to be '    syncretic . It was due to certain fundamentalist factors in Islam that  influenced it to be so 'Islamic' .... ie. 'exclusive' to Islam .

 

Some 'ecstatic' movements in Judaism  and Christianity  seem  'Sufi'  .   And many Muslims over time have considered Sufi's apostate or heretic .  Especially is the case  for my group and our Master .

 

" The traditional view is that Sufism is the mystical school of Islam and had its beginnings in the first centuries following the life of the Prophet Mohammad.

 

There is another view, however, that traces the pre-Islamic roots of Sufism back through the early Christian mystics of Syria and Egypt, to the Essenes, the ancient Pythagorean orders, and the mystery schools of the Egyptians and Zoroastrians, among others. It is these roots that gathered into the trunk known as Islamic Sufism.

 

Sufi Inayat Khan recognized the multi-religious roots of Sufism as well as its contemporary relevance for people of all faiths. When he was instructed by his teacher in 1907 to bring Sufism to the West, he articulated a "message of spiritual liberty" which reflects the universal, inclusive nature of Sufism. As he noted:

"Every age of the world has seen awakened souls, and as it is impossible to limit wisdom to any one period or place, so it is impossible to date the origin of Sufism." ....'

 

.... more at  ;      https://www.sufiway.org/about-us/the-origins-of-sufism

 

( and it also contains info on the Sufi view of Wisdom , where we can see it is clearly above 'knowledge   ) 

 

It is sad and tragic what fundamentalists do to things .   Islam has the potential to be a beautiful religion and society ; look back through history when Jews Christian and Muslim lived in the same city, together in peace  and religious and spiritual unity  because they where following instruction of Prophet Mohammed   ! 

 

And then later , when enlightened and intelligent Muslims go to Harran , and find amazing world changing knowledge preserved in Hermetic teachings  ( held there after the collapse of Alexandria  , and it's syncretic teachings { the 'Alexandrian Synthesis ; Greek, Jewish , Egyptian, and Magi / Zurvanite  ( Zoroastrian  - sort of )   collations of wisdom ) ... they adopt it ... considering 'Corpus Hermeticum' , as presented , as ' A Book "   (people of the book, or A book )   and Zoroaster as  one mentioned by The Prophet in Koran as an unnamed   previous Prophet .... they adopted and developed a science and technology that literally changed the world and led to an Age of Enlightenment .

 

YET ... an opposite form of consciousness sacked Zoroastrian libraries ... burning  up to 90% of sacred knowledge ... helping to plunge Islam into darkness and ignorance .

 

 

But yes, most realise this just from  recent events ; they are STILL smashing  up and destroying the very source of their  original  'technological illumination' .

 

 

   

 

Tis the 'way of the world' I suppose - it   does not seem to matter if Islam, Judaism, Christianity , Hermetics/ Occult  is the medium, its all about what the good people or the bad people make of it and use it for .

 

I dont think religion will change consciousness  .... but 'psyche technologies' which many practices including Sufism hold may be a better answer .

 

By the way Patrick ... Indonesia and Indonesians are close to Australia , not only physically  but in many Aussie hearts  ( and I dont mean  nasty tourist types  ) . I have found the one's here friendly, happy, enjoy life and eager to  'all get on with each other ' .  Actually  at many times like when I have needed a  reliable tradesman  - especially one with an artistic flair ... or even wanted a  casual chat  I have hunted for an Indonesian  over an Aussie , due to these traits .

 

One of my happiest moments was being instructed in Gamalan and allowed to play  one piece with their orchestra  ... I chose  the 'gong ageng '   

 

( The biggest ones  ... that was years back , I think my chkras are still vibrating from it !   

 

Ohhhh ... gimme a go this one ! 

 

 

 

( Which can be a bit confusing for an Aussie .....    Conductor ;   " Stike the Gong  ageng  ."

 

Me :  " What ... twice ?  "     )

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, terry said:

 

enlighten me

 

Its a well known Sufi story . I think its very good ... it seems to echo my life .

 

I used it to write a fuller version  and adapted it for a kids story ... and changed it a bit . I made it a typical 'folk story' bt the girl is not rescued by a prince , the re write is designed to elimante certain outmoded things that we still programe our kids with .

 

In my version (and the original ) Fatima must find her own way out of things and trust in divine direction . Also I preserved the 'Islamic' flavour ' in  it, as my society is very mixed and multi cultural by definition. We have a lot of Muslims here  and I want to make their culture more 'friendly  and understandable ' to the kids that read it ... as there is a LOT of misinformation  out there in Australian media and public about Islam and Muslims. 

 

I have run the story two times ; once by an internet group in serial form . They loved it  and where clutching for the next episode , they even formed a discussion group about what might happen next in the story.   VERY curious developments came out of that - most seemed modern self asserting western women   .  yet continually they said things , like when a new male appeared in the story ; " Maybe HE will save  Fatima from her most recent difficulty ? "  Then I would step and remind them  . " But this isnt  a story where the man is superior and the woman helpless , this isnt a bout marrying a prince and the girl is saved by that lives happy ever after ... remember  ! ? "

 

And they would laugh and say "Oh yeah, thats right ."  and love this idea ... but then, next episode they would  it again .

 

being a Sufi story, thats the type of conditioning I hoped to address .

 

I also gave it to a mum to give to her 10 year old daughter ... she said sh e LOVED it  and could not put it down  . She even stopped using her computer while she read my printed pages ! 

 

Whaaat   !  ... I had no idea it was that 'magically powerful '    

 

The story ... its 'bones' ... not just my elaborations , also seems to address the issue under discussion elsewhere on the  forum ;  'True Will' .

 

 

 

.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Thanks for the answer. 

 

Your welcome    

 

... even tough I didnt answer you   . ..  I just asked 6 more questions .

[terry]

Whose Servant Am I?

 

MULLA NASRUDIN HAD become a favorite at Court. He used his position to show up the methods of courtiers.

One day the King was exceptionally hungry. Some eggplants had been so deliciously cooked that he told the palace chef to serve them every day.
“Are they not the best vegetables in the world, Mulla?” he asked Nasrudin.
“The very best, Majesty.”
Five days later, when the eggplants had been served for the tenth meal in succession, the King roared: “Take these things away! I HATE them!”
“They are the worst vegetables in the world, Majesty,” agreed Nasrudin.
“But Mulla, less than a week ago you said that they were the very best.”
“I did. But I am the servant of the King, not of the vegetable.”

 

Excerpt From: Idries Shah. “The Pleasantries of the Incredible Mulla Nasrudin.

[-_sometimes]

19 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Islam has evolved constantly over the years wherever it went, but the salafis/wahhabis want to impose their version of “correct” Islam which is their interpretation of what they think it was like back in the Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) time

Isn't what they want the actual thing though? This is something I've had difficulty wrapping my head around. It was considered a terrible thing to 'innovate' aka change in any way or add to what was already in the Qur'an and mentioned by the Prophet. But then again I've only studied Islam from the perspective of Wahhabism. They call it (innovation) bid'ah, and oh do they love to throw that word around 😅

 

19 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

So in short, no I don’t believe everything needs to be followed word for word as it is

Why do you believe that? In my experience there is no space at all for personal belief in Islam

 

19 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

If you look at the Quran lots of the later verses contradict the earlier ones

I'm aware. But aren't there also plenty of explanations for why this doesn't then mean that syncretism is the answer?

 

I'm interested to know your viewpoint, and not looking to argue by asking these questions, just so you know

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Your welcome    

 

... even tough I didnt answer you   . ..  I just asked 6 more questions .

Yes, I did notice.  Even so I had my ‘answer’, as ‘Koan/7 meanings’ is not something I am interested in. 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Cobie

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

Isn't what they want the actual thing though? This is something I've had difficulty wrapping my head around. It was considered a terrible thing to 'innovate' aka change in any way or add to what was already in the Qur'an and mentioned by the Prophet. But then again I've only studied Islam from the perspective of Wahhabism. They call it (innovation) bid'ah, and oh do they love to throw that word around 😅

It’s their interpretation of what they think the real thing is. The only way we will know what Islam actually was like during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pubh) is if we invent a time machine. No one can claim their version of Islam is exactly how it was back then because no one knows for sure.

 

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

Why do you believe that? In my experience there is no space at all for personal belief in Islam

All these different variations of Islam started off as one person’s personal belief that they convinced other people was the right way. 

 

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

I'm aware. But aren't there also plenty of explanations for why this doesn't then mean that syncretism is the answer?

Maybe, but it’s why I personally believe that syncretism is the answer. I don’t have to blindly follow what other people think, I can come to my own conclusions.

[Cobie]

On 29/08/2022 at 11:10 PM, Pak_Satrio said:

… in Indonesia Islam was spread by Sufis, who believed in syncretism and always combined Islam with whatever local beliefs were there. 

 

... when Islam first started it was syncretic, and learning from many different cultures instead of suppressing them. 

 

... things changed during Muhammad’s (pubh) lifetime. So why should we not update things during our lifetimes too?

 

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

… All these different variations of Islam started off as one person’s personal belief that they convinced other people was the right way. 

 

… I personally believe that syncretism is the answer. I don’t have to blindly follow what other people think, I can come to my own conclusions.

 

Your above two posts are quite an eye-opener for me.  I too like to “come to my own conclusions”. 
 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Cobie