Awakening To Reality

[taoguy]

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html

 

These are all you need for authentic buddhist practice.

 

===

 

Anyone who follows this site? So far, I've never found anyone who is able to elucidate the stages of awakening so clearly. And I've been a very devout student/practitioner of Buddhism for many years - even "traditional theravadin", "suttavada-style", "vipassana", "Zen", "mahayana", Vajrayana etc. If you want to stop searching, just look at this site. If you don't understand any of it, then you may be going on a wrong tangent in practice...

 

Life's short... 

Edited August 21, 2022 by taoguy

[Tommy]

It has been a while since you posted this link. Has it helped you? Is it worth the time and effort to read and learn?

Elucidate the stages of awakening so clearly? Has this helped you awaken? Would it help anyone or only those who are doing his practices?

[stirling]

I've chatted with Soh a number of times and am satisfied that he knows what he is talking about. There aren't REALLY stages of awakening, so consider these an aid rather than a references. There are MANY maps of the enlightened territory, from the Four Stage map, the Bhumis, the Oxherding pictures, ad nauseum, and all of them seem to have useful aspects to them. 

[Tommy]

I was really looking for milestones. Things that would show itself when one has moved forward along this journey. That way I would know what I am doing is sort a right?? But, I think I come up short because I never have such experiences. No dramas, no insights, no feelings of energy. Only feeling lack of sleep. Finding myself staring into space. Thoughts rush in and out of which I have no control.

 

The analogy would be like floating in the middle of the ocean just hanging onto a piece of wood. The night is cloudy. With no sense of  direction, swim this way or that way makes no immediate difference. Effort is weak. All that can be seen is no change. Just stuck. Then, from desperation, the five stages of grief. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Lastly, Give up and try again later.

 

So, ever since beginning this when I was young, it has been off and on. Mostly off. And as I get older (65), I find myself at the bottom of the stairs again wishing to climb higher this time around. Reminds me of Moody Blues "Late Lament". Breath deep the gathering gloom, Watch light fade from every room, Bedsitter people look back and lament, Another day's useless energy is spent.

 

Genetically in line for dementia. Good thing. This way I can forget my failures and become a different person.

Edited April 20 by Tommy

[johndoe2012]

Lack of sleep result in low energy and a general more primitive view of life and negative emotions, like depression, anxiety etc. 

 

Awakening to Reality starts with self inquiry and a doubtless sense of being as the first stage. Getting there requires lots of work. 

[stirling]

On 4/19/2024 at 9:10 PM, Tommy said:

I was really looking for milestones. Things that would show itself when one has moved forward along this journey. That way I would know what I am doing is sort a right?? But, I think I come up short because I never have such experiences. No dramas, no insights, no feelings of energy. Only feeling lack of sleep. Finding myself staring into space. Thoughts rush in and out of which I have no control.

 

Are you working with a teacher, or meditating? Let's hear more about that.

 

From MY perspective, entirely off the top of my head, and with a 101 degree fever (so possibly missing some things):

 

Your first insight might be the realization of just how unbearably noisy your mind is outside of meditation practice. 

 

If you are meditating at least 20 minutes a day or hopefully more, you will find that you become less reactive, more calm, and develop a "pause" before emotional outbursts that enables you to wait through the wave of emotion and respond in a more relaxed and kind manner. This would be one of the earlier hallmarks of a dedicated practitioner.

 

You might have "pointing out' instruction from a teacher and now be able to recognize "emptiness" with some effort. In daily life you will begin to learn to see it in your meditation practice, and attempt allowing this to well up in during your day. 

 

Eventually you start to have "access concentration", a stableness and abiding in your meditation practice that allows using your practice for inquiry. 

 

There are a lot more things like this, but usually I just see it come up in a student as they develop. 

 

If you don't, but CAN have an in-person teacher, I would highly suggest it. 

[Tommy]

Thanks for the reply. I do not have a teacher. Did have one when I first began meditating. Then mostly off (and on). I noticed the noise in my head. But, mostly that anything I do in this life has this noise or mind in order to move forward. Otherwise, there is no desire to do anything. And, it becomes hard to understand anything without this noisy mind. Looking for milestones was important to me, one time. I seem to have given up looking for progress now. And just enjoy the company of people who know more than I do.

 

Note: I have not notice being kinder or nicer or more patient. But, I do like to spend time just sitting. 

Edited April 21 by Tommy

[tao.te.kat]

On 19/4/2024 at 2:01 AM, stirling said:

I've chatted with Soh a number of times and am satisfied that he knows what he is talking about. There aren't REALLY stages of awakening, so consider these an aid rather than a references. There are MANY maps of the enlightened territory, from the Four Stage map, the Bhumis, the Oxherding pictures, ad nauseum, and all of them seem to have useful aspects to them. 

 

Not forgetting the four Mahamudra yogas which are, for me, the most detailed stages to be found in buddhism. Check Dakpo Tashi Namgyal.

 

Also the five ranks of Tosan are very interesting, but less clear...

 

There're many stage models in buddhism...

 

The Thusness/John Tan model (adopted by Soh) is interesting and fits also some other models, but being so "clear" is also a problem because people have a tendency to focus too much on objectives, milestones, realization and results, and that is an hindrance. Also a way for a lot of self-deceit.

 

But also of value, no doubt.

 

Edited April 25 by tao.te.kat

[stirling]

6 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

Not forgetting the four Mahamudra yogas which are, for me, the most detailed stages to be found in buddhism. Check Dakpo Tashi Namgyal.

 

Indeed! Big fan of "Clarifying the Natural State". Also worth reading the last few feet of the understanding: "Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche.

 

6 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

Also the five ranks of Tosan are very interesting, but less clear...

 

Agreed. 

 

6 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

The Thusness/John Tan model (adopted by Soh) is interesting and fits also some other models, but being so "clear" is also a problem because people have a tendency to focus too much on objectives, milestones, realization and results, and that is an hindrance. Also a way for a lot of self-deceit.

 

Absolutely. One need someone who has complete insight to help navigate maps like this. Self-diagnosis  isn't always helpful, especially when you might never encounter some of the map locations (I'm looking at you here, Progress of Insight). 

 

So, what is your practice background?

[tao.te.kat]

>Big fan of "Clarifying the Natural State".

 

I did the translation of the book to spanish in case anyone is interested.

 

at El blog de 道 | El blog de Tao (wordpress.com)

 

>So, what is your practice background?

 

Started some decades ago with zen but mostly by my own and friends, and switched to Essence Mahamudra which is mostly similar but more clear  and without paradoxal language.

 

But in the middle I studied Vedanta, the Thusness model, Dzogchen, etc... I'm semi-old...  I've talked with John Tan and Soh from time to time. Very nice people.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

Edited August 7 by tao.te.kat

[Tommy]

Awakening to reality is much like awakening from sleep. One does not really know how one does it. It happens and it happens at the right moments for most people. But, we just do not awaken without much practice. There is no guarantee of enlightenment thru the practice of meditation but there almost a certainty of no enlightenment without practice.

 

So, what is this practice and what is it suppose to do for one to rise from sleep? The practice of meditation is a way to put things in the proper order. To make things right. At first, we are told to let thoughts go. Do not cling to thoughts or attach to them or to struggle with thoughts. After some practice, space opens up. One's concentration is better. Thoughts slow. One becomes more focused upon intent and actions. One know whether one has put one's shoes on the left or the right. Whether the umbrella is resting with the hand on the left or the right. Actions are not without intent or awareness. Mindfulness. Thoughts becomes a tool rather than an identity. One removes those things that defile the reflection of ourselves. Clearly the mirror shines. And hopefully thru grace, one awakens to reality.

 

What are the stages? does it matter to see the stages? If one gets stuck then it is good to know one is stuck? I have personally given up looking for milestones. They mean nothing. Only the complete effort. Abiding in the emptiness. Well, sorry for my rant. I seem to be very attached to my thoughts. Moving on...

[tao.te.kat]

>What are the stages? does it matter to see the stages? 

 

Being a bit pessimistic: first milestone is first kensho. Before it milestones dont make sense because there's any really. No ground attained. Not only Bodhidharma or Hakuin or the tibetan ways to do it (introducing to the nature of mind) point there, even thusness puts its first "rank" on a kensho or realization he lived. So this is hard to digest but ...

 

So 99,99% of people dont see stages because they are always at stage zero. Sorry. Probably I'm going to be attacked, but it's the truth.

 

Of course, a lot of changes happen at stage zero, you get better in a lot of things. But they're not spiritual milestones, no grounds and your mind is more or less the same that the first day and you should keep doing the same practices. So we can say that this changes happen inside the relative (using Tozan five ranks use of the word) but without real consistent contact with the absolute. Maybe in deep meditation without identification you contact it, but it's not a change, just an experience of it.

 

After kensho there're some milestones. Not a lot but there're. Meaning trascendental changes in your mind, and it being a ground (you cannot revert easily to previous situations or not at all).

 

But the stages are useless for 99,99% of people (because they havent see the nature of mind so they're not at the first ground to understand). So they dont see stages at all.

 

 

 

[Tommy]

Wow, to sweep everyone into stage zero. To lump everyone who hasn't had Kensho as not having stages because it is useless for 99.99% of people. That totally dismisses the time and effort one puts into their practice. Like saying a person who has practiced for years and spent time learning about the Dharma is no better off than a person just beginning to practice? I know that there are people I can learn more from. They may have or may have not had Kensho. But, I would not dismiss their years of practice and all they have learned. Stage zero. Yeah, that is me, Zero.

[johndoe2012]

Nature of mind is easy to see, just do a lot of semdzins. 

 

See the book by Keith Dowman, Dzogchen Semdzins. Then practice non meditation, just sitting. 

 

I went to a Zen dojo with 2 hours just sitting. It was like one big semdzin 😊

 

The self contraction that is the nature of the small self will unwind one day, don't worry, just practice. 

 

The small self is a phantom, it moves and changes, is impermanent but the mind can still believe in it to a degree until the belief is over. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

Nature of mind is easy to see, just do a lot of semdzins.

 

Or just a session or so with a realized teacher.

 

 

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

See the book by Keith Dowman, Dzogchen Semdzins. Then practice non meditation, just sitting. 

 

I went to a Zen dojo with 2 hours just sitting. It was like one big semdzin 😊

 

Zen and Dzogchen are VERY similar.

 

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

The self contraction that is the nature of the small self will unwind one day, don't worry, just practice. 

 

The small self is a phantom, it moves and changes, is impermanent but the mind can still believe in it to a degree until the belief is over. 

 

Indeed.

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Tommy said:

Wow, to sweep everyone into stage zero. To lump everyone who hasn't had Kensho as not having stages because it is useless for 99.99% of people. That totally dismisses the time and effort one puts into their practice. Like saying a person who has practiced for years and spent time learning about the Dharma is no better off than a person just beginning to practice? I know that there are people I can learn more from. They may have or may have not had Kensho. But, I would not dismiss their years of practice and all they have learned. Stage zero. Yeah, that is me, Zero.

 

Some relatively simple practice can actually get you to the Buddha's promise of relieving suffering. I'd recommend Micheal Singer's "Untethered Soul" to anyone that can sit in open awareness for even short periods of time. I have many students (Soto Zen) that have used these two pieces to become aware of the causes of suffering, and the path to its reduction and the reduction of karma. 

[tao.te.kat]

I'm sorry. It's not a nice proposal, I know. I understand being attacked if that happens. Masters wont say that to you and probably for good reasons, but they know perfectly.

 

But if you attain no ground, you will be at point zero again just some months after stopping practice or when bad times come, or maybe you even will abandon the path forever for lack of motivation or results.

 

So before a ground you're mostly trying to stop a flood... all the time. And you feel like it. And it's very easy to be carried away.

 

That's not an idea, thousands of people live it. All the time. You feel it.

 

So yes, but it's not point zero of real spirituality, because all the practice is making you approach the first ground. That's very important. So it's not zero. There're the paths of accumulation and joining. And they have a function here.

 

But you dont have yet a ground, then you can revert to point nearly zero very easily. And even forget all about this. Many people did.

 

And that's a common experience. I'm not saying anything that you probably already know inside you.

 

Sotapanna is entering the path, the stream. So obviously before Sotapanna you're out of the path, of the stream.

 

So we can mark lots of stages if wished, before the first ground. But they will not be really stages, they're easy to loose and different for every person. They are no ground just contingent situations. So not really stages just you getting a bit better and closer to understanding your mind and buddha qualities.

 

All buddhist stages count the first ground at realizing the natue of mind. Be it the first bhumi, sotapanna, kensho, first mahamudra yoga, etc... and even thusness stage one happen with kensho...

 

As in the ox herding, you can explain a lot of what happens before it, but it will be no ground. It's a taming.

Edited August 9 by tao.te.kat

[tao.te.kat]

>Like saying a person who has practiced for years and spent time learning about the Dharma is no better off than a person just beginning to practice?

 

Not one is better than others, not even a Buddha. But I think "better off" doesnt have that meaning ¿? (my english isnt very good)

 

If you ask me what of the two is most probably realizing its nature before, I will say I dont know. Some people do it even without a minute of practice. See Huineng. But not only him.

 

And some people never at all.

 

But it's better not to compare to others. Just do what you have to do.

 

Edited August 9 by tao.te.kat

[Giles]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

Some relatively simple practice can actually get you to the Buddha's promise of relieving suffering. I'd recommend Micheal Singer's "Untethered Soul" to anyone that can sit in open awareness for even short periods of time.

 

Seems to be very interesting. I will read it. Thank you for your recommendation. 🙏🏻

 

4 hours ago, stirling said:

I have many students (Soto Zen) that have used these two pieces to become aware of the causes of suffering, and the path to its reduction and the reduction of karma. 

 

Could I ask what you mean by "these two pieces"?

 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, tao.te.kat said:

But if you attain no ground, you will be at point zero again just some months after stopping practice or when bad times come, or maybe you even will abandon the path forever for lack of motivation or results.

 

So before a ground you're mostly trying to stop a flood... all the time. And you feel like it. And it's very easy to be carried away.

 

 

Recognition of Rigpa/Nature of Mind/Emptiness is a tool anyone can have, and begin using immediately to remove suffering with dedicated practice. It's not really that difficult, honestly. In my opinion any open awareness meditation, be it Zazen or Dzogchen or something else is the simplest most direct path, IF you are someone who suits such a path. This IS the promise of Buddhism, actually, though that suffering relief can be VASTLY deeper and transformative.

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Giles said:

Could I ask what you mean by "these two pieces"?

 

In this case I am referring to having a meditation practice that precipitates resting in Rigpa/Nature of Mind/Emptiness (with teacher induced recognition) and the deceptively simple techniques of Singer's book to recognize how the voice in our head generates duality that leads to suffering, and his techniques of the recognition of contraction and surrender. 

[tao.te.kat]

Consciously empty

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10 by tao.te.kat

[johndoe2012]

On 9.8.2024 at 3:48 PM, stirling said:

 

In this case I am referring to having a meditation practice that precipitates resting in Rigpa/Nature of Mind/Emptiness (with teacher induced recognition) and the deceptively simple techniques of Singer's book to recognize how the voice in our head generates duality that leads to suffering, and his techniques of the recognition of contraction and surrender. 

 

I haven't read the Singer book yet, so looked at a Amazon review saying 

 

Quote

Michael assures you throughout the book that there isn't really ever a good reason for closing your heart and thus cutting yourself off from the ever present living flow of shakti energy.
 

 

This one is a nice reminder plus the forgiveness meditation I posted is enough to stop the endless chatter and suffering that goes along with it. 

 

Thanks for mentioning the book 😊