John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Spectrum]

incrediblycowthewarergyfirstcoromthengleyoeastspectan

 

TADAA AADAT

 

m.r s jan gp ou p fro de hind mr. ra jndEer..

 

posergetic counterwave jst liina tub...muust bd

 

circles

 

Edited May 6, 2008 by Spectrum

[DentyDao]

edited

Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[sunshine]

The problem with everything mentioned is that they are well within the laws of physics. This obvious fakery is not.

 

How obvious can fakery be???

 

I will try not to get into a pseudo-discussion about "physical laws" possibly being just in existence because of a collective mind making them so...

 

Let's assume there are objective physical laws... in this case "obejective" = existing outside of us even without us in a nonchangeable way.

 

What science has done during the don'T know how many years is to be able to predict things, making thins explainable, by developing mathematical formulas to get more and more close to describing these laws, being

able to work with them. But there is development in this. At one point science gets to the stage to realize that old formulas are not enough to explain for they find in "reality"... so they adapt their formulas.

 

I have found physicists to be most open to "the unbelievable"!!! But they believe, that ALL can be explained if we have the technological stuff available... electricity wasn'T measurable until the time one developed an instrument to measure it. Still it existed before that we would assume.

 

Astrophysicists discover new stuff all the time and have to rework their old theories... formulas that help to a certain point to calculate things don't suddenly work in other situations... there needs to be adaptation.

 

Modern day science tells us about the observer effect. If indeed subatomic particles are already influenced in their "behavior" by "non-intended observation", why then should the possibility to change/influence/move etc. that which is composed of sub-atomic particles as done in the video not be as possible as that which you say is "within the laws of physics", as indeed it is well in the laws of physics...

 

I won't go into the argument of whether this specific example is fakery or not. This is a tiring and fruitless discussion. Neither can you prove it is, nor can I it isn't. But I can delightedly say that your argument is based on non-fertile ground and if every human being in history would have thought and argumented that way, none of the know developments, advancements, discoveries would likely have been possible.

 

It is in believing in the seemingly impossible that evolution becomes possible. Without it there is stagnation.

 

this I strongly believe

 

 

Harry

[宁]

some say it takes much courage to be a believer, as much as one needs to be an unbeliever

 

it's a personal choise, we are part of the forces that make the world be what it is

[Taiji Bum]

I am usually stuck with the attitude of wanting to believe these videos sooooooooo bad but like this video, I just stared at the guy standing near those things falling thinking he's doing something to make them fall. I want to believe but I never do.

[松永道]

In my opinion belief doesn't need to enter the equation. Experience verifies. Until then be an open-minded skeptic. It's important to make hypotheses about the world but don't deceive yourself. If you don't know, you don't know. There's nothing more dangerous and insane than a believer without proof.

 

That goes for deniers too. Dogma doesn't spare the skeptics. You can't prove non-existence. Any intelligent person knows science is a theory. As St. Augustine said, "Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature."

 

Don't have faith in a fantasy, remain open-minded to a possibility.

[Gerard]

Read this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

 

Forget about silly Siddhis.

 

Cultivate the Dharma, morality, selfless help to other human beings and control your minds. One who is able of conquering their own mind is the greatest warrior.

 

If you achieve this you will have taken a closer step to enlightenment.

 

Regards.

[Buddy]

denty,

I read it years ago. I remain unconvinced.

 

Pero, please site your source re: Buddha or Laotze's parlor tricks.

 

To everyone else who wants to believe it, why do you want to believe it? Even it were true how does it help your spiritual development? What possible benefit is there to moving empty cardboard boxes? Why are you so willing to suspend rational belief for this nonsense?

 

These sort of alleged skills first appeared in martial art circles and were all proven to be bullshit. Martial artists are far less gullible than supposed "spiritual" types.

[Jedi777]

LOL Buddy you are just wrong--its ok to be wrong

[Buddy]

And you're a silly Harry Potter wannabe.

[sheng zhen]

Funny how people blindly believe in science as the only truth. Just like people do with any other religion really.

 

Science is based on electromagnetics. Everything in science is electromagnetics. And the only thing we can measure is electromagnetic effects. Now, what if reality consists of many more kinds of forces? How will science ever be able to proove them by using electromagnetic devices?

 

Gravity is still not prooven by science, only in theory and observation. Consciousness is not prooven by science either, only in theroy and observation. So if everything we believe in has to be prooved by science, there isnt really much left. When we look closely at these beliefes, science dosent really bring us anything based on truth. Only things based on electromagnetics.

 

And as for the scientific method, it is just as limited by the scientits limited perspective than anything else. Religious, blind faith or what ever. The sugar industry has prooven over and over that sugar does no harm to our body, for gods sake. And still we feel that sugar is not good for us! We must be totally delutional

 

And double-blinded studies can never research the interaction between people. There is so many limits to science it all boils down to what you choose to put your faith in.

 

There is not much science can do really, other than confirm the beliefsystem we are in as a culture. Just like any other religion.

[Taoist81]

In my opinion belief doesn't need to enter the equation. Experience verifies. Until then be an open-minded skeptic. It's important to make hypotheses about the world but don't deceive yourself. If you don't know, you don't know. There's nothing more dangerous and insane than a believer without proof.

 

That goes for deniers too. Dogma doesn't spare the skeptics. You can't prove non-existence. Any intelligent person knows science is a theory. As St. Augustine said, "Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature."

 

Don't have faith in a fantasy, remain open-minded to a possibility.

 

Does that include the "experiences" of those who see Cris Angel or Darren Brown? The only difference between the "miracles" that they perform and those in these "masters" videos (or personal performances) is that the former admit (or rather are adamant about) the fact that they are trickery. Skeptics are not the ones making outlandish claims like levitation or pyrokinesis. Thus the burden of proof is on the one making the claims to prove that they are not just doing parlor tricks. Everyone here seems to hate Randi and his crowd, but there are numerous individuals who have similar challenges (there is even one man who was a fully trained "Godman" in India before realizing that it was all a racket). The claim that the "masters" don't need the money is bunk, because they could give it to those who do need it. They could do something tangible to help people rather than just doing tricks to get students who in most (all?) cases do pay them....hmm. All it would take would be one well put together (i.e. controlled settings, not like the flawed junk "science" used by Gellers "testers") study suggesting that any of these abilities were beyond our current understanding of the laws of physics to both inspire millions and further our understanding of the universe. There is nothing to lose by "masters" coming forward for real testing. If they really want to help people "ascend" or become enlightened, then they would present themselves, unless they are afraid of being found out. Any students who weren't worthy could easily be rejected, more students who are worthy would learn of them, and, again, it would further Humanity's understanding of the universe. No longer would these "ignorant" scientists hold the monopoly on "truth", all the masters need to do is prove that their abilities cannot be explained by basic tricks and modern physics.

 

By the way, to the poster who compared skepticism to denying the world is round....you're using what is called the Fallacy of false analogy. The denials of the shape of the globe were based on personal observation, like the observation of a "master's powers". On the other hand, the information that the Earth was round came from the dastardly science, you know, mathematics and a grasp of the laws of physics. Obviously, science grows in knowledge and self-corrects, but that doesn't invalidate older laws, it simply improves on them.

[sunshine]

By the way, to the poster who compared skepticism to denying the world is round....you're using what is called the Fallacy of false analogy. The denials of the shape of the globe were based on personal observation, like the observation of a "master's powers". On the other hand, the information that the Earth was round came from the dastardly science, you know, mathematics and a grasp of the laws of physics. Obviously, science grows in knowledge and self-corrects, but that doesn't invalidate older laws, it simply improves on them.

 

Excuse. I don'T really get where the "fallacy of false analogy" is burried...

[Pero]

[minkus]

To everyone else who wants to believe it, why do you want to believe it? Even it were true how does it help your spiritual development? What possible benefit is there to moving empty cardboard boxes? Why are you so willing to suspend rational belief for this nonsense?

 

I wonna believe it yeh, why not ? if this guy can help people with the skill he acquired i dont see whats wrong with it even if some people call em a fraud, at the end the onlything that matters is if he helped the people he threathed and from what i read about the man this seems to be the case.

 

Im yust as carefull with these story's as with rational belief buddy ... in general both made me frown before and both dont have all the answers.

 

John Chang is an acupuncturist and a yogi, he combines the skill he obtained in he's meditation and energywork with acupuncture to make it more efficient. After what i read he doesnt charge people for threatment and he seems to be effective in what he does.

 

Ffcourse what i write about John Chang is based on assumptions, i didnt met em before (yet) and i dont know you did either.

 

The man does fascinate me yes, regardless of he's achievement he seems so humble and modest when you look at he's pictures. He's eyes seem so sincere. Thats superficial yes but still when i meet someone irl its the first thing i look at, the eyes. Not that he asked me to loan him money or sumthing, then i would check up a bit better first

 

About spiritual development. Not everything a person does or thinks should be with the eye on spiritual development, still amount of focus and single pointed concentration needed to help you bump some boxes with bodyenergy must be immense. I can easily imagine it takes years of dedicated practice to yust aquire that amount of energy. I dont know spiritual development is yust cultivating mind. Isnt it the whole picture ? energywork also comes into play with this not ?

 

Anyway hope i made some sense, certainly didnt meant to be rude. Im not an expert by far, yust scribbling down my thoughts.

 

Cheers

[Jedi777]

[Taoist81]

[DentyDao]

edited

Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[Jedi777]

GREAT POST seandenty!

THANKS

[Buddy]

I can't explain what you claim to have experienced denty. But I'm sure you'll understand that unless I experience it or find it tested in verifiable surroundings I remain skeptical. Still and all, even if it's true what value is it? In my total beginner status I'm certain none of these alleged powers would stop me from dropping you like a hot rock. But I'm not enlightened.

 

Taoist pretty much summed my feelings quite well.

 

"Jedi" (need I say more?) whines:

 

"I Can see if you have never exp things like this or if you cant even feel energy or project it your self then you would tend not to understand these matters."

 

You can't see, anything, boy. You can assume what you like, your opinion is of no consequence.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Buddy

[Taoist81]

[Smile]

That guy's Life line (on his hand) is all messed up.

[Jedi777]

Buddy why are you being a Jerk and so Defensive---what is your point

[Buddy]

Which part eluded you?

[sunshine]

Still and all, even if it's true what value is it? In my total beginner status I'm certain none of these alleged powers would stop me from dropping you like a hot rock. But I'm not enlightened.

 

 

See. This is exactly where most people fail in the understanding... something I have tried to point out over and over again... it is not about being able to drop one like a hot rock... sure some powers might be neat and whatever.... what makes them so special (to me) is that they are "claimed" (keeping the mind of the sceptic here) to be sign posts on the way of training. They are signs of development... revealing if one has reached a certain stage or not...

 

isn't that a value?

 

 

Harry

 

That guy's Life line (on his hand) is all messed up.

 

Luckily a lifeline is not the last word in the equation

 

Harry