John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Buddy]

Sorry Harry, I don't see it as value. Signs of attainment of what? Isn't the purpose of spiritual cultivation to make one...I'm not sure of the way I want to say this...enlightened, free the wheel of karma, satchitananda, one with Dao...?

[sunshine]

Sorry Harry, I don't see it as value. Signs of attainment of what? Isn't the purpose of spiritual cultivation to make one...I'm not sure of the way I want to say this...enlightened, free the wheel of karma, satchitananda, one with Dao...?

 

I want to be honest. What is the wheel of karma, what is the Dao? I have ideas of it, but claim no knowledge about it. All that I might think what it is could be wrong. So what am I aiming at? I personally feel there is more to life... when I hear of immortality or becoming one with the Dao that hints at things that are at least different if not much more than what I currently have. I feel like being called to it, being drawn to it. I walk "that" path only because of that. Now. There seem to be many ways to "this destination"... I have to choose one.

 

I could pray to God and might reach it - but as stated somewhere else I am not a really good believer.

I could do stillness meditation 30 years staring at a wall and might reach it - I am not that good in doing things that on the way do not give me clear signs of where I am in my development.

 

If somebody were to tell me:

Harry. You will reach America by always swimming west (I live in Germany)... I might get nuts on the way not knowing how much farther away it might be, if I actually swim in the right direction.

 

I remember years ago when the wall fell in Germany... it was like there were no real street signs in East Berlin. It drove me nuts. Street signs to me are necessary to feel safe and calm AND ABLE to reach a destination. No street signs is like swimming in the see without having the sun or stars to decide which direction to swim.

Then over the years there were street signs... but the street names changed pretty often... so the map I was having wasn'T always up to date. Suddenly I had signs, but they (or the map) where not reliable enough.

Damn.

 

Now. For me the value in those signs is that in this specific tradition they have a meaning. They do not count for just one person (some might)... but have been proven over and over again to be THE sign/s for indicating specific development (as stated)... how far one has achieved/reached in ones practice. This I personally consider a value.

 

Now if you ask me why I believe this tradition to be legit and if it really will lead to the claimed destination I can just answer: I believe...

 

 

Harry

Edited May 6, 2008 by sunshine

[DentyDao]

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Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[voidisyinyang]

Hey Sean -- who IS "sifu jiang"? Do you mean this dude?

 

http://www.artemis-seminars.com/masters/masterjiang.html#

[DentyDao]

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Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[forestofsouls]

People have chased after signs and wonders since time immemorial.

 

I was listening to Ajahn Brahm yesterday on this very topic. He was citing the "boy without a brain" and NDEs as examples of consciousness existing apart from matter. He said that if monks displayed extraordinary powers, then people would be drawn to the powers and away from the dhamma. He also said that if one wants to see whether reincarnation, etc. was true for oneself, one needs to dedicate oneself to meditation for a long period of time.

 

In my own experience, I've found that desire creates a mental state that is incompatible with clear seeing, like trying to see through boiling water. To attract people to material results simply reinforces the mental habits of desire, making it less likely to achieve any real spiritual result. Of course, I have no secret modern Chinese elite society to back me up--- only time tested meditation methods developed over thousands of years and made available for free. Unfortunately, they require a lot of effort and hard work--- often an anathema to modern Westerners.

 

 

Sorry Harry, I don't see it as value. Signs of attainment of what? Isn't the purpose of spiritual cultivation to make one...I'm not sure of the way I want to say this...enlightened, free the wheel of karma, satchitananda, one with Dao...?

[DentyDao]

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Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[Neijia]

This is basically the same set of arguments, again.

 

Those that know - the believers (or at least those that have had experience) believe,

And those that don't... go out of their way to be insulting.

 

 

Pretty pointless either way.

[gendao]

Edited May 6, 2008 by vortex

[sunshine]

People have chased after signs and wonders since time immemorial. [...] In my own experience, I've found that desire creates a mental state that is incompatible with clear seeing, like trying to see through boiling water. To attract people to material results simply reinforces the mental habits of desire, making it less likely to achieve any real spiritual result.

 

I have a very different experience and understanding. You often got to experience the "material"/"material results" FIRST und best FULLY, before you actually can let go of them. Otherwise many of us will always have the question in the back of their mind what they might have missed... to me much less desirable

 

 

Harry

[Taoist81]

[DentyDao]

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Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[Taoist81]

It's too bad that the level of insecurity on this site about such things has to take away from the possiblity of a useful/interesting discussion.

 

When did this discussion lose its usefulness or become uninteresting? : )

[Buddy]

"You would first have to understand the basic mechanics of the body-mind to see it's value and relevance. That's the problem, you lack education. You have no idea what's happening in the demonstrations, you just see what you want to see; it scares you and you react like a child."

 

Pshaw denty,

It doesn't scare me, don't be foolish. You react like a knee jerk cultist, how's that? We could play these silly tit for tat name calling but I'll be better at it than you. I can readily show you how my neigong works and you might find some of it pretty interesting. Certainly the physical therapy students when they came to interview so we could compare paradigms. But then they told me their teacher wouldn't believe what I could do. the difference between me and you is that I CAN do it, readily reproduce it, and am willing to do so at will. You can only claim.

 

"Those that know - the believers (or at least those that have had experience) believe,"

 

No, those that believe, believe. that is a far cry from knowing.

 

"And those that don't... go out of their way to be insulting"

 

Sort of what they said to the boy who revealed the Emperor's lack of attire.

 

"It's too bad that the level of insecurity on this site about such things has to take away from the possiblity of a useful/interesting discussion."

 

It's this level of passive/aggressiveness that has come to define you and those like you denty.

[sunshine]

That is perhaps the saddest part of these kinds of things. While they certainly have their place, if they are seen as too important one tends to miss just how much beauty and magic there is in daily life whether watching a leaf fall or doing your laundry.

 

Yes. One might tend to, but one doesn't have to... still. If we give the beauty of daily life too much importance we might miss out on "these kinds of things"... which would be sad as well. Too many do it

[DentyDao]

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Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[Buddy]

This is exactly what I'm talking about denty,

Hating? What sort of nonsense polemic is that? Because I call the ridiculous for what it is, is not hating. It's simply revealing the facts. You'll just have to understand that I'm not falling for it based the claims of some cult addled hippy boy. I knew shit from shine-ola long before I met Bruce.

[Spectrum]

We could play these silly tit for tat name calling but I'll be better at it than you. I can readily show you how my neigong works and you might find some of it pretty interesting. Certainly the physical therapy students when they came to interview so we could compare paradigms. But then they told me their teacher wouldn't believe what I could do. the difference between me and you is that I CAN do it, readily reproduce it, and am willing to do so at will. You can only claim.

 

Huey Lewis: Walking on a Thin Line

Edited May 6, 2008 by Spectrum

[Taoist81]

Yes. One might tend to, but one doesn't have to... still. If we give the beauty of daily life too much importance we might miss out on "these kinds of things"... which would be sad as well. Too many do it

: )

[DentyDao]

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Edited July 11, 2015 by seandenty

[gendao]

Jim, the guy in the video, from what I hear is a pretty cool guy. He studied with Sifu Chang for about 10-15 years before reaching this level. His training included hours of daily meditation. From what I hear, he has reached level three of the Mo Pai system, that's a pretty amazing accomplishment and shows a lot of dedication and years of hard work. Spiritually speaking, according the Mo Pai, he will not be reincarnated unless he chooses to. You wouldn't know it by looking at him, he just looks like a banker on vacation or something, but the guy is an immortal being.

 

The fact that it can be that simple, without robes and fancy practices, without pretence and mumbo jumbo interests me. I'm not saying that there can't be more to the spiritual experience, but it's nice to know that it doesn't take a fancy spiritual name like 'Child of Immortal Wind' or 'Swami of great wisdomness' to get liberated. It's also intesting that there can be a set of objective goals and experiences to qualify a students progess; as opposed a feeling or perception which can be subjective.

Well, I wouldn't call several hours of consistent meditation daily for well over a decade "simple," by any means. That's essentially a professional level of training similar to a pro-athlete or musician.

 

Although I know what you mean by "simple" - minus all the mystery, misdirection and dharmic filler.

[Buddy]

"Exactly. The point is that the people who have these abilities are also very spiritually evolved and many are enlightened. Why does there have to be a need to say otherwise when you have never met them, don't know what their practices involve and don't even have a basic understanding of their school and what their values are. It's more than immature. It reveals your own doubts and deep, in some cases, need to impose yourself on others. In Buddy's case it's just a cry for help, perhaps he is unhappy in his marriage (God help his wife). Can you say midilife crisis"

 

Your sad passive/aggressiveness is just automatic for you. You don't seem to ever have a thought unsaid. Now you want to speculate on my marriage? How puerile. Should I have my wife come here and chastise you for this?

 

But I must admit your feeble attempts at pop psychology are at least amusing in their immaturity.

It would be like me saying- It only shows that some have a homo-erotic father complex because they feel a need to invent a fantasy where we all can have magic powers. In Sean's case it's penis envy, perhaps he's revealing his suppressed desire to molest small boys. (God help his therapist). Can you say autoerotic stimulation? (sorry I just couldn't replace the question mark with a quote like you did, denty)

 

"Jim, the guy in the video, from what I hear is a pretty cool guy. He studied with Sifu Chang for about 10-15 years before reaching this level. "

 

10 or 15? It's a 33 percent difference. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say 15. For what? To allegedly be able to move empty cardboard boxes. Talk about a waste of time...

[Matt]

Edited December 2, 2008 by Matt

[Pero]

But I must admit your feeble attempts at pop psychology are at least amusing in their immaturity.

It would be like me saying- It only shows that some have a homo-erotic father complex because they feel a need to invent a fantasy where we all can have magic powers. In Sean's case it's penis envy, perhaps he's revealing his suppressed desire to molest small boys. (God help his therapist). Can you say autoerotic stimulation? (sorry I just couldn't replace the question mark with a quote like you did, denty)

 

LOOOL, this is just hilarious. :lol:

[Gamuret]

I see that David Verdesi's name is being mentioned. It would be good to again take a look at the following thread:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4731

 

I also see that many of the questions regarding David Verdesi's credentials still remain unanswered i. e.:

 

From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

 

What was the subject and title of his thesis?

 

What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology?

 

It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts.

 

With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

 

What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions?

 

As far as having special powers like telekinesis, telepathy, etc. this is no proof that the person who has them is either honest, sincere or spiritual. The notion that powers automatically equal spiritual attainment is in my opinion heavily skewed.

 

G.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Gamuret