John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Jedi777]

i am amzed at the lack of respect here

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Sean,

 

Thanks for the confirmation, one last question if u could answer would be appreciated does the level 1,2 of Long men Pai are similar to Mo Pai of filling Dan Tian and compression according to Kostas book? Basically im asking does it get the same results as Mo Pai in the foundation training to the levels 1,2 of Mo Pai?

 

Allan,

 

I thought Wang Li Ping was already immortal?

 

WYG

[sheng zhen]

sheng zhen hi

 

In my country the basic salary is 700 euros (of course others are paid with more money) and most of the people work more than 9 hours a day. They have only 15-20 days for vacation. There is a lot of unemployment and most of the people work all day sometimes two jobs to feed their family.

Be sure, there is a lot of disipline and hard work for them....

Like David for example? Is he a hard worker?

Or should I charge 5.000 euros for zhan zhuang and Taiji? With this way I wouldn't have a trouble too to find money.

 

It is a very good thing that you like your practice so much and that really has some effects in your life.

But the measurment of spirituality with money is a completely different animal....

 

SB

Hi scualo blanco.

 

If I felt your taiji class was worth 5000euros I would gladly pay you and be even more happy after class. I would do anything I could to get the money to go to your class.

 

So if you feel your taiji class is worth 5000euro, man, why dont you do it??

 

I know most people have a hard time hanging on in everyday life. So do I. But when there is something I want to do there is nothing more than my own stupidity that can stop me. And if I realize Ive been stupid I would learn from it, try again, and at the end get it anyway.

 

We are really never stuck in anything other than those things we subconsciously (or even consciously) choose to be stuck in. Its a sad fact. Anything can be dealt with if we work with it smart enough and dedicated enough. Most things can even be done for free. To learn from your own mistakes, evolve and adapt is totally free. And if you do that there is not much that can stop you

 

And I agree with you. Money does not have anything to do with spirituality. Still people believe that all spiritual teachings should be for free, hahaha

[DentyDao]

Hi Sean,

 

Thanks for the confirmation, one last question if u could answer would be appreciated does the level 1,2 of Long men Pai are similar to Mo Pai of filling Dan Tian and compression according to Kostas book? Basically im asking does it get the same results as Mo Pai in the foundation training to the levels 1,2 of Mo Pai?

Well, from the point of view of even an outside observer, David has acomplished all the required skills and abilities that characterize the level four. Yes, they are the same, different methods, but the net result is the same, granting all of the same abilities and holding the same meaning and level of immortality, whether level one, two or four.

 

Allen,

 

I don't know how you are drawing these conclusions or who is feeding you this information; all I can say is they are mistaken. You're free to jump to whatever conclusions you feel you need to.

 

As for the book, it's a door to other possibilities that will create a solid base for students to go further in real Zhen Fa; yes a teacher is required for most students.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Thanks Mate!!!

[Neikung]

Actually David is still a student of John Chang and they do keep in touch. John Chang will be in China to meet with David and witness/assist his training as he completes the level five. John Chang supports David and they have always maintained their friendship.

Sean...I know what you said here is simply not true! I hope that you are just misinformed and not made things up just to beef up David's credentials. What Scualo said was correct ("David is not a student of John Chang anymore"). In fact, I understand that David has never really studied with John Chang.. he was just one of the visitors. I remember David himself said in your forum that he was John Chang's non-practicing student. Furthermore, anyone who studies qi knows that it is not good to mix things up....Here you claims that in addition to Mopai, David is studying with Jiang and Wang Li Ping. Even if they are in the same general lineage as you claim there are (but there is really no supporting evidence what so ever), this mixing-qi practice (if David really does it) could lead to major health problems.

[DentyDao]

Sean...I know what you said here is simply not true! I hope that you are just misinformed and not made things up just to beef up David's credentials. What Scualo said was correct ("David is not a student of John Chang anymore").

When I was with David, he and Sifu Chang were in contact and they are teacher and student. I can only tell you want David has said and I have no reason to doubt him.

 

In fact, I understand that David has never really studied with John Chang..

You are misinformed. David did study and train with John Chang.

 

I remember David himself said in your forum that he was John Chang's non-practicing student.

That's right David achieved level 4 using the methods of another school within the Lei Shan Dao. The principles and results are the same.

 

Furthermore, anyone who studies qi knows that it is not good to mix things up... Here you claims that in addition to Mopai, David is studying with Jiang and Wang Li Ping. Even if they are in the same general lineage as you claim there are (but there is really no supporting evidence what so ever), this mixing-qi practice (if David really does it) could lead to major health problems.

David knows what he is doing and is in excellent health.

 

Next...

 

Look, the bottom line is David did what he set out to do and he is opening the door for those with an affinity that want to follow in his footsteps. He has always been upfront about the sacrifices and trials he has gone through to get where he is and ther reality is, this is a practice for few. Most just aren't up to the task; when you consider that you will have to forgo many of the comforts and everyday convenieces that make up the average life style in the west.

 

How many of you who are interested are really willing to practice 4, 6 and even eight hours a day? Even if you have the money and time, would you?

 

For those that are truly interested, that know that 'this is it,' it's not a question of how or how much money or waiting for his or that to happen before you feel ready; it's either do it or die trying. If you don't have that attitude, the rest of the debate doesn't really matter. Some of you behave as if you expect the master to come to you and comfort you and explain everything just right and provide all he inspiration and all the proof so that you can be satisfied and feel that the master, whoever he is, has proven himself worthy to you.

 

That's just not how it works. You have to go and do the practice and research and investigate and come to your own conclusions and find your own truths. And after you have searched and searched and tried this and that and done this practice talked to such and such a teacher, you have to be honest with your self and ask how much have I really achieved and am I any closer to the knowledge or happiness or achievement that I'm looking for; it's called taking responsability for your own spiritual life and it's not about wasting your time looking for questions. If all you do is look for questions, you will only find more questions, that's how it works.

 

How many can say they really achieved awakening and really cultivated something and what that means with a deep certainty? You have to find your answers. Start looking for answers.

 

It's just not really useful or honest to continue debating and talking about it. Interested parties will have to find out the truth the hard way like the rest of us.

Edited May 9, 2008 by seandenty

[scualo blanco]

This is a thread about a MoPai student.

Nothing more nothing less.

 

If you like to talk about David and his teachings or about immortality, please do it in another thread.

 

On a sidenote, what is happening inside the MoPai it is known only to those who still are into the lineage. People outside the lineage have no knowledge and no authority to speak about.

 

The claim of David as a student of MoPai is not true.

You can't be in this lineage and train to other lines too. And you have to respect the teacher if you want to be his student. David's writings in the past about John Chang and all this overexposure about the pai, didn't left any space for David training in MoPai anymore.

This is the truth.

 

So, if something is written about the MoPai, Sean you are not in the position to speak like an authority about the Sifu, the teachings, the situation etc.

Please stay in your teachings with your teacher and I hope to achieve your goals with the training.

 

Let us respect the original thread and please talk about David in another thread.

[joeblast]

.......not in the position to speak like an authority ...........

amazingly enough, there are so many that do...

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Smile]

Next...

Sean, I'm wondering at what point in LSD training one starts to develop virtue/compassion for all living beings. Would you also talk more how it may relate to rabbit/bull use to accomplish LSD goals? Obviosly, I ask because I see a problem with this, and LSD is said to be a spiritual path that leads to Enlightenment. And from my own experience, at some point through your cultivation you get to the stage where you connect to other beings so closely, there is virtually no separation. You feel their pain and suffering, or joy and happiness...

[SiliconValley]

Sean, I'm wondering at what point in LSD training one starts to develop virtue/compassion for all living beings. Would you also talk more how it may relate to rabbit/bull use to accomplish LSD goals? Obviosly, I ask because I see a problem with this, and LSD is said to be a spiritual path that leads to Enlightenment. And from my own experience, at some point through your cultivation you get to the stage where you connect to other beings so closely, there is virtually no separation. You feel their pain and suffering, or joy and happiness...

 

 

Here comes the killer

 

I am all ears for the answer ... Is the answer that compassion/blah blah is another unnecessary baggage of Buddhism [just quoting what I heard on another thread]? Now who needs compassionate beings... we need immortals and supermen....

 

This may be a different question, but cannot immortals *create* [hmm, assuming money to be a form of energy] - *transform* something to money? Now, if we believe in immortals and the various said capabilities, is this that impossible?

 

no disrespect even slightly intended to any of the masters here ...

Edited May 10, 2008 by SiliconValley

[mat black]

This is not meant as a statement for or against anyone's chosen practice, but just a note on the subject of powers

 

- The Heavenly Lord Jade Emporer says that "the power of kindness and compassion is the most vast and great power"

 

- Buddha - "Loving Kindness"

 

- Sri Ramana Maharshi says "the aspirant for knowledge should beware of siddhis. The power of the sages realization is more powerful than all occult powers. What is the highest benefit that can be conferred apon other as we call them? It is happines which is born of peace. Peace can reign only when there is no disturbance by thought."

 

 

May all have peace.

[SiliconValley]

This is not meant as a statement for or against anyone's chosen practice, but just a note on the subject of powers

 

- The Heavenly Lord Jade Emporer says that "the power of kindness and compassion is the most vast and great power"

 

- Buddha - "Loving Kindness"

 

- Sri Ramana Maharshi says "the aspirant for knowledge should beware of siddhis. The power of the sages realization is more powerful than all occult powers. What is the highest benefit that can be conferred apon other as we call them? It is happines which is born of peace. Peace can reign only when there is no disturbance by thought."

May all have peace.

 

"Since the stilling of the mind is true liberation and miraculous powers are unattainable without an act of the mind, how can they whose mind is set on such powers enter the bliss of liberation which is the ending of all activity of the mind?" - Ramana

 

"Mouna (silence) is the utmost eloquence. Peace is utmost activity. How? Because the person remains in his essential nature and so he permeates all the recesses of the Self. Thus he can call up any power into play whenever or wherever it is necessary. That is the highest siddhi." - Ramana

 

"Not realizing that they themselves are moved by energy not their own, some fools are busy seeking miraculous powers. Their antics are like the boast of the cripple who said to his friends: 'If you raise me to my feet, these enemies are nothing before me." - Ramana

 

"The siddhis are not the Self itself, but its powers, as are seeing, smelling, thinking, etc., with the sole exception that the latter are common experiences, whereas the siddhis are not. The powers themselves are unintelligent: the intelligent is their possessor. To fix the attention on the powers and not on their owner, who is the reality, is, therefore, like throwing away the pearl and retaining its shell" - Ramana

 

 

"The force of Self-realization is far more powerful than the use of all other powers. Though Siddhis are said to be many and different, Jnana (True Knowledge) alone is the highest of those many different Siddhis, because those who have attained other Siddhis will desire Jnana. Those who have attained Jnana will not desire other Siddhis" - Ramana

 

 

"Although the powers appear to be wonderful to those who do not possess them, yet they are only transient. People see many things which are far more miraculous than the so-called Siddhis, yet do not wonder at them simply because they occur every day. When a man is born he is no bigger than this electric bulb, but then he grows up and becomes a giant wrestler, or a world-famed artist, orator, politician or sage. People do not view this as a miracle but they are wonder struck if a corpse is made to speak" - Ramana

 

 

"In order to display siddhis, there must be others to recognise them. That means, there is no jnana [realization of the non-dual self, the one without a second] in the one who displays them. Therefore, siddhis are not worth a thought. Jnana alone is to be aimed at and gained" - Ramana

Edited May 10, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Gamuret]

Edited May 10, 2008 by Gamuret

[mat black]

Golden quotes S.V. , golden. True jewles of wisdom from the Maharshi.

You might like the thread on 40 verses by Sri Ramana in the bookclub.

[Guest allan]

[Gamuret]

Edited May 10, 2008 by Gamuret

[sunshine]

Sean, I'm wondering at what point in LSD training one starts to develop virtue/compassion for all living beings. Would you also talk more how it may relate to rabbit/bull use to accomplish LSD goals? Obviosly, I ask because I see a problem with this, and LSD is said to be a spiritual path that leads to Enlightenment. And from my own experience, at some point through your cultivation you get to the stage where you connect to other beings so closely, there is virtually no separation. You feel their pain and suffering, or joy and happiness...

 

 

Hi Max,

 

I am sure you remember the already given and repeated answers to the questions above. Depending on who we are we give them different value:

to some the answers are downright lies

to some they are possible lies

to some they are possible truths

to some they are a believed truth

to some they are the truth

 

I don't think we will come to any final conclusion altogether about these questions/matters/topics as there are at least as many as opinions/believes/views as there are people discussing these things. At the end of the day it comes down to what we want to believe... by our belief we decide if we consider something as true or false or with all its different stages and shades...

 

 

Harry

Edited May 10, 2008 by sunshine

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Allan,

 

Fair call mate!

 

WYG

[Smile]

Hi Max,

 

I am sure you remember the already given and repeated answers to the questions above.....

I don't think we will come to any final conclusion altogether about these questions/matters/topics as there are at least as many as opinions/believes/views as there are people discussing these things. At the end of the day it comes down to what we want to believe... by our belief we decide if we consider something as true or false or with all its different stages and shades...

 

 

Harry

Hi Harry,

If you don't mind, please point me in the right direction about the given answers. I seem to miss them, as I didn't spend a lot of time on the old LSD forum.

You are totally right about the beliefs. Substitute a rabbit or a bull with a human being. Would your beliefs/explanations still hold true? I know mine will...

In any case, I'm not attacking in any way LSD or David or Sean. I've been wondering about the answers for a long time. Considering Sean followed the Buddhist path for a long time, I'm curious to see his personal view on this and how one would rationalize the experience with bulls to by-pass his old faith beliefs.

Max

[sunshine]

If you don't mind, please point me in the right direction about the given answers. I seem to miss them, as I didn't spend a lot of time on the old LSD forum.

 

No prob. Just remember with all the old discussions going on here at taobums it got mentioned by Sean once in a while... if I remember right at least two explanations have been given.

 

1st) With a true master "doing the job" it might seem there is harm done to the animal watching from the outside, but actually in the process the master helps the animal in its own advancement. If I remember right the phrasing "freeing the shen" got used.

 

=> if one considers above explanation as possible one can accept that in the act that seems cruel to others there is actually a lot of compassion going on if seen from a different level/point of view/understanding.

If one considers above explanation to be pointless rationalization then one will focus on the externally seen seemingly cruel aspect of "robbing the Qi/jing"...

 

2nd) A true master at a certain levels knows the karmic consequences of an act reaching into the future, and he knows the karmic relations coming from the past...

 

=> if one considers above statement to be true or at least as a possiblity, then one could argue that if done right a karmic balance could have been established by the taking the Qi/Jing of the bull to give it to a person for help with her/his/its development.

 

Taking above two explanations as true makes it easy to view the acts as those of being just compassionate indeed.

 

>>Substitute a rabbit or a bull with a human being. Would your beliefs/explanations still hold true? I know mine will... <<

 

I personally can not substitute a rabbit or a bull with a human being, similar to not being able to substitue a fly or moscito for a rabbit or a bull.

 

>>In any case, I'm not attacking in any way LSD or David or Sean.<<

 

I know. Contrary to others you have a balanced approach

 

>>I've been wondering about the answers for a long time.<<

 

Me too. For now I myself have decided to accept given answers as absolutely true possibilities...

 

>>Considering Sean followed the Buddhist path for a long time, I'm curious to see his personal view on this and how one would rationalize the experience with bulls to by-pass his old faith beliefs.<<

 

this indeed is interesting to ask...

 

 

Harry

[voidisyinyang]

OK I just paged through the last several pages of this thread.

 

Here's what I don't understand and Sean can you explain this.

 

It's fascinating that John Chang is going to China to help out David Verdesi with his training under Wang, Liping.

 

Is John Chang a student of "Jiang" and is "Jiang" the teacher of Wang, Liping. I asked earlier who Jiang was a gave a link from an internet search of qigong master Jiang -- which was apparently wrong. Then I thought Jiang WAS Chang which is obviously wrong.

 

Anyway the whole debate on this thread is just Left-brain versus Right-brain.

 

For example qigong master Jim Nance told me a story about his time with the Dogon in Africa. A man was psychotic with rage - and the drummer shamans took his anger and directed it into a tree. The tree promptly died. Then the drummers spent the rest of the night bringing the tree back to life.

 

So electrochemical energy -- JING -- is not the same as actual physical death, like say eating a dead animal. But it is closely related and also can be REVERSED.

 

Qigong master Yan Xin, for example, took the power from an electrical power line to restart a car he was in -- just using his mind. But the car immediately started smoking from having too much energy. So he just reversed his intention, and then pointed out that all of these intentions are

 

BIDIRECTIONAL.

 

I think the consciousness just naturally harmonizes these imbalances -- what master Nan, Huai-chin calls "different levels of emptiness."

 

For example when I told qigong master Chunyi Lin about Ramana Maharshi killing himself as achieving "eternal liberation" he later joked to the class:

 

I've done everything except kill myself.

 

And then he looked at me with a sparkle in his eyes. haha.

[sunshine]

>>Is John Chang a student of "Jiang"<<

 

nope.

 

>>and is "Jiang" the teacher of Wang, Liping.<<

 

nope.

 

But from what is said David has been/is student of all three.

 

 

Harry

[voidisyinyang]

OK so who IS "Jiang" -- is there any thread or website or book, etc?

 

Or do I have to enact a Baboon male greeting here or what?