John Changs 1st Westerner student

[dao zhen]

David Shen is teaching Dao Yin type exercises for 5000 euros, that is quite expansive for those exercises but if the students are happy then so be it.

 

If Mo Pai level 1 is just a meditation and level 2 is compressing the chi with simple exercises why do all the Dao Yin stuff when 2 simple exercises will produce better results. One can do stretching and health exercises by walking, weights etc?

 

WYG

 

Good question.

 

I also am curious as to why the Tao Yin exercise is said to be from a branch of Lung Men,

but from my simple observation it looks to be the exercise here in a modified manner -

- link -

 

But from my personal training, some branches teach cultivation of body first,

then mind second.

 

Some mind first, then body second.

 

In the end, the main goal should be Unification of Innate Nature and Life Force.

 

I have found better results from just going straight to the proper practice of seated meditation.

 

Yet, you do have to gain the method from a qualified teacher.

[sunshine]

Have a good sleep Harry! do I come across as an Asshloe to you? Sorry but I'm not! have you paid for davids training and/or the Forum? if so what did you get out of it? Anything? Are you immortal? I won't lose sleep over anything discussed on this board, as I have stated I will continue to teach others what I have learned for FREE and will continue on my journey to find truth. We are all trying to reach the top of the mountain, but each may use a different path

 

Good morning,

 

much better. Have slept too little over the last few weeks. Had a good night'S rest. Thankx for the wishes. No "Shidoin". I don't see you coming across as an Asshole. I just realize that many of the discussions to a certain extent have made me "less-skinned"... meaning whil in the past I was going to explain and discuss things in detail I have come to a place where I am sometimes much more direct. To some this comes across as aggressiveness...

I have paid for David's training. Yes I did. I have mentioned many many times that the training in Denmark is in the same financial region as most trainings out there. So I have no prob with it. I have mentioned that indeed for American's right now the situation is pretty bad due to the Dollar/Euro exchange rate... years ago it was different and if you calculate the exchange rate from years ago it is pretty cheap actually... from Euro standards the courses are in the middle to maybe upper range of expenses.

 

What did I get out of it. Well. I have investigated different teachers... in contrast to others just those that were in any way accessible to me. I did not travel million of miles, spent endless amount of money and time on travel to "meet a special master"... Those I investigated turned out to be people I did not feel a great affinity to and I experienced some things with them that simply turned me off.

There is always a chance that this might happen with David as well. There is no guarantee. But so far I feel the great affinity, I feel he has lots and lots to offer and seldom I felt so good with practicing a certain set of practice. Things have either been to complicated, making no sense at all, dubious etc. etc. etc. Now I have a method that is pretty straight forward. I can go on practicing and when done correctly I will arrive at well-defined stages... I love that. David is teaching for the first 3 years two methods. The XSZ and the SZG. Others teach endless methods and you don'T know which ones to choose, to practice for how long etc. etc. etc. I have two now and when mastered can continue. It is all very straightforward... not to say easy.

 

Am I immortal? Well. Isn't this a philosophical question? If I go back to some physicists I sure am immortal in the sense that the most minute particles probably will always be... maybe not. But I stick with the idea that the whole is more than the sum of the parts. In that I believe that parts of us are immortal indeed but recycle in birth and death, birth and death, birth and death... being able to stabilize the parts and integrate them into a whole maybe makes us immortal in a higher sense. Can't for sure tell you, as I am not there.

 

For now I am practicing with one main reason and intent:

I have a great affinity to the practice and the teacher.

My first step and hope is to stabilize my Shen and root it in the body.

When I am there I assume I will learn/know what the next step can and will be.

Before I will have reached this I consider some time to pass.

A pre-step to all of that is mangaing to structure my life in a way it allows for stable practice.

I am not even there yet, so consider stabilizing my Shen to its fullest to take a little more of a little while.

 

thankx for listening

 

 

Harry

[chinadao]

Good question.

 

I also am curious as to why the Tao Yin exercise is said to be from a branch of Lung Men,

but from my simple observation it looks to be the exercise here in a modified manner -

- link -

Hello Dao Zhen,

 

Thank you for your post.

 

The link you provided for Xing Sheng Zhuang (Body and Mind Method) is from Singapore. This Singapore group learned their qigong from Pang He Ming in China. Pang He Ming's complete style of qigong is named Zhineng Qigong.

http://www.zhinengqigong.org/pangming.htm

 

Pang He Ming operated a well known Qigong hospital in Northern China for a number of years. And guess who else studied at this Qigong hospital? Luke Chan and his brother Frank Chan who teach Zhineng Qigong in the USA under their own trademark "Chi-Lel Qigong".

http://www.zhinengqigong.org/pangming.htm

http://www.chilel-qigong.com/WhatIsChilelQigong/hospital.htm

 

Xing Sheng Zhuang (Body and Mind Method) is the second method of the Zhineng Qigong school (or Chi-Lel Qigong school). An English DVD and book of the Body and Mind Method (Xing Sheng Zhuang) can be purchased from the Chi-Lel organization in California. I have this DVD and book and they are quite well done. The DVD is $25, the book is $15. However, as you said I believe it is the simplified version.

http://www.chilel.com/cgi-bin/media/agora....p;product=MEDIA

 

Chi-Lel also teaches this method in person in their workshops. Here is the description from the Chi-Lel website. "Body & Mind Method - Use movement to strengthen Meridian Qi and open blockages. Loosen up joints, increase flexibilities and coordination."

 

We must also consider the possibility that Xing Sheng Zhuang is a much older method and Pang He Ming is the one who simplified it.

 

Hope this information is helpful.

 

Edward Richards

[Pero]

Thanks I'll be sure to check them both out

 

Of course never mind that Mantra has asked not to buy stuff from that site because Max didn't give them permission to sell them...

[chinadao]

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Edward,

 

Thanks for posting, i have a question are you still studying Mo Pai and if you are what level are you now?

 

Also training under Wang Liping are you learning the same stuff as David or something completely different?

 

Does Wang Li Pings method differ to Mo Pai regarding filling the Dan Tian and compressing it?

 

Sorry for the questions you are a very lucky man and i wish you all the luck in your training....

 

 

WYG

[minkus]

Thanks for this practical info Edward. You encountered people in Indonesia that speak the dutch language ?

 

Regards, Mike

Edited May 20, 2008 by minkus

[DentyDao]

No Sean, David is not a friend of Chang sifu. I'll keep telling you that.

 

He used to be his student for a while, no more. Not a friend of David.

Ok, if you say so.

 

You are not into the MoPai anymore, so you don't have the slightest idea of the place that David and all of your bussines holds in Chang's mind. Your ONLY knowledge is what David says to you and you don't listen to other people who are into the MoPai and telling you the truth.

It's true. I only know what David has said. I do however maintain contact with friends of John Chang living there and they say David is on good terms and is one of the few westerners still welcome. There are a lot of people claiming to be Mo Pai these days so I generally don't listen to the gossip that's out there.

 

Of course Sean you know the truth, but you take your money too for your role in the "gold alchemy/immortality game"....

I don't make any money off my association with David.

 

As for Kostas, if you remember in the past in Andrea's forum, he said that you were never was his student in reallity. And you wrote many bad things about him there and for David too. How come you and David became friends, is a very strange thing to consider. The old members of Andrea's forum remember the quarrels of you with David. However, after all that, you took what he offered to you and you changed your mind asking him for forgiveness.

I did study Mo Pai level one. I went to Athens and was accepted into Wenwukuan and trained with Victor Wooten. Beyond that, I claim nothing.

 

I think you are making more of this then you need to. I mean if John Chang was simply David's friend, is it worth getting upset about?

Edited May 20, 2008 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

[Neikung]

 

I think you are making more of this then you need to. I mean if John Chang was simply David's friend, is it worth getting upset about?

These people are simply pointing out your false advertisements/claims that David is somehow a world expert in Mopai and has a close relationship with Sifu Chang.

In numerous occasions, you have made many claims that are simply not true (presumably because you got false information from David). For example, you have posted that:

1. Sifu Chang is going to China to help David with his neikung (but you have said yourself that Mopai is closed to all westerners starting 2002/2003...aren't these 2 statements contradictory already?)

2. David has L2 test (like Jim in this video) without the help of Sifu Chang...but David is, as you posted, a non-practicing student. Tongkosong was right when he said that David didn't even practice Lv1, let alone could move the boxes from far away by himself.

3. Sifu Chang would still welcome David into his house. In fact, I have heard that Sifu Chang was furious when he learned about David's tour business and wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

 

On the other hands, you are commendable to point out that "..the idea of getting the techniques and actually succeeding without the help of John Chang is just wishful thinking....you will need the help of a qualified teacher." Some people in this forum have the naivete that they can learn neigong through the internet (free or not) or through a few minute phone calls. There is a very good reason why in the ancient time, Masters do not take Tu Di lightly and will only admit them after thorough testing (of their characters and determinations). If people in this forum really want to learn neigong, go to China and find the masters either through David or by themselves. Jiang, for example, is not difficult to find. His address and personal data are available in the internet (e.g. in the article published by the Taiwanese Apple Daily magazine).

[voidisyinyang]

Here's a video about Max in space:

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374

[Guest allan]

Edited May 20, 2008 by allan

[DentyDao]

Edited May 20, 2008 by seandenty

[Gamuret]

Well, the whole thread is becoming more and more like one of those never-ending Mexican soap operas.

 

I obviously have my own share of responsibility in this.

 

Whatever the truth (about David Verdesi and other matters) is, I do hope we will come to see it one day - independent of proponents and detractors. Free of clever marketing and ad hominem attacks.

 

Best,

 

G.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Gamuret

[shidoin]

Well, the whole thread is becoming more and more like one of those never-ending Mexican soap operas.

 

I obviously have my own share of responsibility in this.

 

Whatever the truth (about David Verdesi and other matters) is, I do hope we will come to see it one day - independent of proponents and detractors. Free of clever marketing and ad hominem attacks.

 

Best,

 

G.

 

until david can show his abilities, he means nothing to me.

 

You should write fiction novels Sean! you are very good at it. Nice stories, to bad they are just that (stories) No evidence

[tongkosong]

"I'm sorry I mentioned it because it is probably a private matter between David and Sifu Chang. I do believe David. I don't think anyone is suggesting that David is still studying Mo Pai. Just that John Chang and David have a friendship and John would be there to encourage David in his training. "

----------------------------

 

If you or David thinks that John Chang will be going to China to assist David in leveling up, then I can say for a fact that you guys are delusional. It doesn't make sense for a teacher to go out of his way to assist someone who is not a student (or a non-practicing one) to further a training that John Chang doesn't even belong to.

 

"Perhaps the main complaint from people who have associated themselves with the Mo Pai, such as yourself (although I would have trouble believing that you are even nominally associated with Mo Pai), is that I have used the 'Mo Pai' brand to advertise David.

 

All I'm doing is pointing this out and really; before this thread, I had stopped posting about David completly. But when I see people attacking David and playing silly games, I feel obligated to set the record straight. If people are upset about that, that's their problem and it doesn't change the simple facts of the situation."

-----------------------------

 

Yes...you got this right. A lot of people in Mo Pai resent the fact that David and you using John Chang's name. If you stop using John Chang's name and associating David to John Chang then, maybe we'll not be upset with you Like yourself, I feel obligated to set the record straight and stop you from saying false things about John Chang and his relationship with David. It's not about David achieving level 4 and us being jealous about it. It's just that you have come to the forum, not only this one (wherever there's a mention of John Chang), and try to "sell" David.

Edited May 21, 2008 by tongkosong

[AugustLeo]

.

[shidoin]

Here's what Mantra68 said about Gold Dragon Body in this thread:

 

 

Thanks for that! What is the training for this? just Kunlun?

[chinadao]

Hi Edward,

 

Thanks for posting, i have a question are you still studying Mo Pai and if you are what level are you now?

 

Also training under Wang Liping are you learning the same stuff as David or something completely different?

 

Does Wang Li Pings method differ to Mo Pai regarding filling the Dan Tian and compressing it?

 

Sorry for the questions you are a very lucky man and i wish you all the luck in your training....

WYG

Hello Wen Yuen Gong,

Yes, I am still practicing MoPai. Though my last (second) visit with John Chang was October 2006 at which time John Chang tested me and told me I was almost 40% complete for Level 1. I need to visit him again. My first visit was February 2005.

 

I made contact with Wang Liping in 2007. I met Wang Liping twice - February and March 2008. I have not yet trained with Wang Liping. Wang Liping has agreed to begin training me - this will begin soon. It will be authentic close training, not a public seminar.

 

At this time I cannot say what the differences are between Wang Liping and Mo Pai. But I am sure there are great differences in their approaches. I believe they are entirely different approaches.

 

There are also significant differences in how Sifu Jiang teaches vs. MoPai. Although I would say these two Pai have much more in common with each other than Wang Liping's Longmen Pai.

 

In my opinion, what is most unique about Sifu Jiang is his success in training his students to achieve true neigong. I personally met some of these successful students earlier this month. However, Sifu Jiang charges some serious money. And I wonder, even if Sifu Jiang's training was readily available in the US - the birthplace of modern capitalism - would there still be people on this forum complaining about money and demanding the training for free?!? Or trying to get pieces of the training over the internet? This is absurd. It is absolutely essential, in my opinion, to have a close relationship with a true master to succeed at this training.

 

In contrast, John Chang never charges any money. In contrast, John Chang, while he is an incredible neigong master himself, has not yet produced a successful student and the MoPai lineage has a long history of only 1 or 2 successful neigong achievers per generation - only of Chinese descent. This has been well documented in Kosta's books, by current MoPai students and is common knowledge at this point.

 

Wang Liping also charges significant money.

 

Money is the reality of China. China is very business oriented now. Chinese citizens have watched their country explode with commerce the last 10-15 years. There are so many business people in China who are extremely well-off. So the main focus and culture of Chinese society right now is making money! Yao Ming is making tens of millions of dollars in the USA playing basketball and from endorsements - Yao is a Chinese national hero. Now Yi Jianlian is in the NBA too. There are 7000 KFC restaurants in China with more opening every month. In China's towns and cities you no longer see swarms of people riding bicycles, you see traffic jams just like in America. So this has influenced all of China including the neigong masters - they are human just like everyone else. Modern China's culture is not the culture from the old Kung Fu TV series - that is mythology - Sorry Grasshopper. China's current culture is business and money.

 

Edward Richards

Edited May 24, 2008 by chinadao

[chinadao]

until david can show his abilities, he means nothing to me.

Hello Shidoin,

 

I would just like to ask if you have a similar opinion about John Chang, Jiang, and Wang Liping. Not trying to start an argument, just wondering what your thoughts are about the authenticity of these 3 masters. Also, interested if others on this forum feel these 3 masters are authentic.

 

Edward Richards

[shidoin]

Hello Shidoin,

 

I would just like to ask if you have a similar opinion about John Chang, Jiang, and Wang Liping. Not trying to start an argument, just wondering what your thoughts are about the authenticity of these 3 masters. Also, interested if others on this forum feel these 3 masters are authentic.

 

Edward Richards

 

I will never be 100% convinced until I see it and feel it in person. I've never seen Wang or Jiang do anything, I have only read stories. So at this point the question is Do I trust the author. John has made an effort to show the world what he can do, he has tried to teach others at (no charger.) Just because he hasn't produced students past level 3 does not mean it is all him. Without the student training (doing their part) of course they will never progress. as far as David and Sean, I believe they are in it to make as much as they can. I'm from the old school where you pay for your training and your teacher doesn't try to rape you.

I've never seen david do anything, so is he level 4? I will never know. Has his students other than sean seen him do things like john does? I've never heard from any! So we have about 3 books and 3 videos to validate wang and Johns claims.. are they real?

Edited May 21, 2008 by shidoin

[shidoin]

Edited May 21, 2008 by shidoin

[qijack]

[quote

I've never seen david do anything, so is he level 4? I will never know. Has his students other than sean seen him do things like john does? I've never heard from any! So we have about 3 books and 3 videos to validate wang and Johns claims.. are they real?

 

You obviously havnt been searching hard enough..friend

[sheng zhen]

In my opinion, what is most unique about Sifu Jiang is his success in training his students to achieve true neigong. I personally met some of these successful students earlier this month. However, Sifu Jiang charges some serious money. And I wonder, even if Sifu Jiang's training was readily available in the US - the birthplace of modern capitalism - would there still be people on this forum complaining about money and demanding the training for free?!? Or trying to get pieces of the training over the internet? This is absurd. It is absolutely essential, in my opinion, to have a close relationship with a true master to succeed at this training.

 

Wang Liping also charges significant money.

Thank you for setting things straight regarding chinas current economic culture. Most people have very romantic views about money and spirituality.

 

I find the concept of believing that money dosent have anything to do with spirituality as an argument that spirituality should be free very strange. Money having a negative connection to spirituality is still having a connection. If money truly dosent have anything to do with spirituality, then who cares who charges how much for what...really? The only thing that matters is how are you going to direct your life so that you can learn what you want to learn.

 

But Edward, I have some more questions. How much does Jiang charge? And how is your trainging with him? Is it consultations, where you learn the method one time and then come back to learn more when you are ready or is there a program you follow? Can anyone learn from him or does he say no to some people?

[DentyDao]

Yes...you got this right. A lot of people in Mo Pai resent the fact that David and you using John Chang's name. If you stop using John Chang's name and associating David to John Chang then, maybe we'll not be upset with you Like yourself, I feel obligated to set the record straight and stop you from saying false things about John Chang and his relationship with David. It's not about David achieving level 4 and us being jealous about it. It's just that you have come to the forum, not only this one (wherever there's a mention of John Chang), and try to "sell" David.

 

In August 2006, long after the incident with David bringing students to Java to meet Chang, David chatted with Sifu Chang on his cell phone in front of our group before class one afternoon. The conversation was very friendly and I could hear John Chang's voice and laughter on the other end of the line. They were making plans to vacation together, just to spend some time and discuss life. Unfortunately, David had to be in China for his acceptance ceremony in the coming days and couldn't meet with Chang that week.

 

It seems clear that there remains a deep connection and friendship between them. John Chang seems like a really great guy and amazing master. He spent years traveling in India and China looking for others like himself and even sent students to China to seek out high masters. I think he is perhaps more open minded than his students give him credit for.

 

One of David's dreams is to get these masters together to meet and compare notes and Liping in particular is open to such things and indeed has worked with Jiang and many others.

 

That the possiblity that Chang would keep in contact with David and perhaps accept an invitation to visit is deemed offensive, well I don't really know how to respond; it's not an issue for me, so it's no problem to drop it. It's rather irrelevant in any case. Perhaps John Chang and David can work out their differences if there indeed are differences; somehow I think they would since they both have a lot of class and very big hearts.

 

In any case, the process that David will undergo is rather fascinating. He will do a three or four month retreat; the culmination of which is a three day period where David will be clinically dead as he sends his Shen out; this while Liping, Jiang and other masters watch over his body. You can read about Liping's experience when he underwent this type of test with his masters in his biography. If he survives he will be a walking dead man in the world but not of it. I'm very happy for David and pray every day for his and his masters continued success. David's work has opened many doors.

 

These are very rare and wondrous things.

 

PS- I got a nice letter today from David. He did confirm that Edward is legit and spoke very well of him again. He said he admires Edward's courage and dedication, "The guy has guts."

 

So, props to you Edward. I hope what you share here is one step closer to educating the west about the reality of authentic Daoism.

Edited May 21, 2008 by seandenty