John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Neikung]

[Wun Yuen Gong]

A question for Mo Pai'ers!

 

Is it true you cannot do any other meditative practices OR fitness with its training, if so Why?

 

Isnt level 1 mo pai just meditation anyway?

 

reagrds

WYG

[shidoin]

A question for Mo Pai'ers!

 

Is it true you cannot do any other meditative practices OR fitness with its training, if so Why?

 

Isnt level 1 mo pai just meditation anyway?

 

reagrds

WYG

 

 

Good Question! I like to know that answer to

[Buddy]

"buddy, you don't believe in fortune tellers!? what!? that was the 2nd post in this topic!"

 

What, dragging me back into it?

[sunshine]

Harry- I am sorry to have offended you with my entries on this and other threads about DSV.

 

I am okay Pat, thankx.

 

I personally feel you really make a mistake here. With all you stated I want to get back to:

you sometimes got to meet people in person. Judging them by their internet personality is as unproductive as trying to fly without wings.

 

I have one tiny little advantage compared to you in "judging" students of David. I met quite a few in Denmark

last year. And believe me. It is not often one meets so many kind-hearted, compassionate people in one place!

 

Would be helpful not to only focus on Sean in judging all of this... he has raised red flags in you from the beginning. But extending ones personal affairs to judgement about the whole "thing"... I don't know.

 

I just wish one of you guys will just stop continuing this personal quarrel.

 

 

Harry

[DentyDao]

I just wish one of you guys will just stop continuing this personal quarrel.

Harry's right Pat... let's let peace rain.

 

"We are the world, we are the one's who make a better day, so let's start liven."

[voidisyinyang]

Sean -- I think it's a fair question to ask WHY that chopstick struck the very center of that hot females forehead in that John Chang video... then answer lies below:

 

Ok you all are left-brain savvy so I'll give you a quick low-down in between my mutual climaxes here as I sit in full-lotus.

 

The pressure of the legs on the thighs pumps up the sex hormones via the vagus nerve.

 

Hate to break it to you science geeks but females climax via the vagus nerve. Professor Robert Sapolsky and I have corresponded a bit on this topic and his book "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" is pretty good. When the male climaxes the external ejaculation is actually triggered by the stress hormones -- the sympathetic nervous system. The female climax stays in the parasympathetic nervous system.

 

So your mission, GNN Males (and I know your "out" there! haha) is to learn how to have a female climax.

 

As per Sapolsky's Harvard Mentor, Kummer's book "The Tangled Wing," when serotonin is IONIZED then it can bypass the blood-brain barrier. So ultrasound via natural overtone harmonics enables this activation of the serotonin to occur, via the vagus nerve transduction.

 

Now here's an experiment, ask your local, loose, laid-back hippy-punk babe to proceed to masturbate with her legs crossed. She's pumping, she's climaxing (sure it sucks not having any male energy to feed her climaxes but still it's better than nothing).

 

Observe closely (you don't have to dart her like Sapolsky did to his baboons but I'll get to that latter).

 

Notice the RIGHT SIDE OF HER NECK pulsating -- after say -- I don't know how many -- but for those obsessive leg pumping liberated females out there....

 

It's the SAME thing while sitting in the full-lotus -- only more intense. The right-side vagus nerve then activates the pineal gland.

 

OK so as the pressure of the full-lotus builds up the brain fills up with electromagnetic fields. This occurs only AFTER the electrochemicals are strongly ionized -- at first you have to build up and store your sex energy.

 

Frankly I doubt any GNNers have the self-discipline, but regardless, this would be the equivalent of getting to about chapter 8 of the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality. It takes about 3 months of training or a "gong" -- 100 days.

 

So then once the pineal gland is open (permanently magnetized and creating light) then when the pressure builds up the electromagnetic fields are sucked in by strong electrochemical sources (females usually, but not necessarily). This would be the equivalent of "darting" baboons and observing the female backside displays, etc., as per Sapolsky, but I defer to his biography.

 

So, like a continuous generating laser, you have a sucking in of electrochemical energy from the full-lotus, while a pumping out and sucking up of electromagnetic energy. This process creates a mutual climax and is a free energy system.

 

Alternatively, if you isolate yourself from strong electrochemical sources, then you can just shoot the electromagnetic energy back into your lower body, thereby converting your body into electromagnetic fields.

 

This is called a "bigu" state -- chemistry Professor Rustom Roy held a conference on "bigu" and there's a peer-reviewed research study demonstrating a young lady going months without food, without losing weight or energy -- based on creating these electromagnetic fields.

 

This is what I did when I went 8 days on just half a glass of water. Amazingly the brain actually produces water through some sort of reverse electrolysis which then causes water to flow down the roof of the mouth, called the "ambrosia" in Taoist Yoga.

 

Keeps you regular as well. Off to the bathroom!

[DentyDao]

I can understand how you trust David 100% but given how much misinformation he has supplied you, may be you should start questioning his credibility.

Again, I do trust David. I don't see what the problem is. The Mo Pai is closed and that includes David; the only point I was making is that they continue to be friends and David remains dedicated to his Sifu. David's masters often encourage him to practice with other masters, so I don't think it's something so out of the ordinary.

[Gerard]

Mods lock this up, please.

 

I offer myself as a Mod

 

It's pointless arguing over and over the same old thing: This method is better than yours.

 

They are all good.

 

All rivers end up in the sea the only difference is that some have more turns than others.

 

 

Regards.

[gendao]

Drew,

A thread discussing Jiang has been posted elsewhere: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...jiang&st=60

A Taiwanese magazine claimed that he is a fraud. Here is a clip taken from the magazine (in Chinese): http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/flyzenmaster-wi...3&next=1571

According to this article, his full name is Zhai Jiang Feng. He is the fifth lineage holder of the Shaolin Geng Men (Heavenly Gate) Qigong. He lives in HuangShan and supposedly has disciples in Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

 

How Shaolin Geng Men Qigong becomes part of LeiShanDao is a mystery to me. At any case, Sifu John, Jiang and Wang Li Ping are not in the same lineage. Now, can you imagine a Master continues to teach a student once he knows that the student is studying with another Master? Anyone who knows Martial Art culture would know that it is disrespectful to the teacher for a student to study co-currently with more than 1 master and is a big no no.

Interesting, the article claims the water was sweetened by an assistant switching a sugared bottle cap in...

 

And the blood "jello" came from a skin prick by a hidden tack. Which naturally congeals once out of the body.

But I guess someone actually getting these treatments could verify if any of these happened or not, though..

As you know Buddhists define compassion as the desire to free others from suffering; I would caution westerners not to confuse this with sympathy or empathy, which actually have nothing to do with compassion. For example, feeling bad for somebody because they are hurt doesn't help that person; the buddha taught that this is actually a weakness. Unless we act and understand our actions, sympathy or any other emotion is not very useful. If we look at this practice with a clear heart, in this context, it is an act of compassion that is beneficial to others.

 

Virtue and of course compassion, being one of the cardinal virtues, are the foundation of Taoist practice and that definitely includes the Lei Shan Dao. Without virtue, your practice will never grow. In foundation training and in the Chinese culture, the first virtue is Zheng, to be upright; the one who falls and stands up again; unless you become Zheng, your mind cannot rest in primordial awareness. Without true compassion, you cannot be liberated and realize enlightenment.

Hmm, very interesting and very, very good point.

 

Oftentimes, feeling pity for and giving handouts to others can indeed end up only enabling their weaknesses and dysfunctions...and suffering.

Edited May 12, 2008 by vortex

[DentyDao]

Interesting, the article claims the water was sweetened by an assistant switching a sugared bottle cap in...

 

And the blood "jello" came from a skin prick by a hidden tack. Which naturally congeals once out of the body.

But I guess someone actually getting these treatments could verify if any of these happened or not, though..Hmm, very interesting and very, very good point.

 

We had a chance to sit down with Jiang and he addressed this article with us. We didn't ask him to because we know it's bs, but he did it anyway because he wanted us to hear his side of the story. I wrote about it here: Link

 

When he changed the water for us, he did it with out breaking the seal on the bottles which were provided by our group. The water was then tested at three universities by mass-spectrometer, a special machine that determines the molecular structure of pretty much any known substance. These records our stored in a massive data base and used to compare to test material. What they found is that the water Jiang treated was not any known sugar or recorded compound; it was tested against millions of known moleculer structures by scientists and found to be an undocumented, unknown substance.

 

The article came out after one of Jiang's students wrote that he was a fraud on a blog in Asia. The local press interviewed him and created a sensational story that is a complete fabrication. The student has since retracted his statements and made a formal apology to Jiang. He even gave us his phone number if we wanted to talk to him and ask him what happened.

 

As it turns out several of his friends, treated by Jiang, recovered from serious health conditions as a result of the treatments.

 

The picture you see of the hand with the needles and 'jello' are fakes. That's not Jiang's hand and he proved it by showing us the article and letting us compare the picture with his hand. He also showed us these demonstrations and allowed doctors to observe and check the proceedure. I have witnessed these proceedures several times, and I have also been treated by Jiang. Jiang's abilities are completely legit in my observation; he does not use needles to break the skin, he uses qi and slaps the hell out of you. The affected blood and stagnation pool at an area determined by Jiang and he uses a suction cup to remove it. This is not a common practice in the sense that only master can do what Jiang does, but it is not unheard of either. A lot of people do cupping, just not in this way.

 

What's being pulled is diseased blood. The consistency can vary depending on the disorder being treated. The amount and speed that it is withdrawn with are remarkable.

 

Jiang did a number of very objective demonstrations and let the group document the proceedures and do checks to varify that he wasn't using needles.

 

This is a classic example of how things get distorted by the media. I was there. I also read the letter of apology from the student who started the whole thing and he clearly states that the article is a fabrication.

 

He was upset with Jiang because he wasn't getting to learn the methods as fast as he would have liked and because Jiang showed him how to train in the Xiao Dao, a lower order training done with tesla coils. This is not the Lei Shan Dao training, although it does have some applications in qigong, it has nothing to do with the training David or Jiang himself do. This is a typical type of test a teacher would give a student to test their patience.

 

Such devices cannot generate visible light from your naked hands, kill a man or drop him to the floor, leaving him sexually impotent for two months afterward, just with a hint of power; or drop an elephant, David has a video of that one. Neither can they control the intensity of power emitted and the form of it; from electric like pulsation to vibration to heat. Nor can they discharge and be recharged by using the life force of a bull as some have witnessed in their very own very body-mind.

 

Jiang, more then once has turned the water in my body and those of entire groups sweet with his qi field that appears and desappears, and the sweetened bodies ooze sweetness suddenly days after-but strangely not our clothes. The sweet taste is on your skin, in your sweat, saliva and urin for days; not to mention all the other abilities like burning and telekinesis and all the rest.

 

Many have seen it and know is real. What is needed are clinical studies if you want to prove something on a broad basis. Until then it's just a nice bedtime story to most.

 

According to David, the Chinese government has been engaged is this research for decades. Jiang participated among the many and Liping was head of the committee in the 80's, but after 40 years or more of research, they have not yet published anything, why? Because they do not have a paradigm, and when they tried to go public it backfired. Liping as well was accused of fraud and became wise enough to know that to go public without first creating the right context just creates confusion.

 

For everyone else, the true skeptic is welcome to test these claims. David has extended an open invitation for skeptics to come and test the reality of these things with their own body-mind, really the only way.

 

Let them bring a lawyer, a scientist and a doctor of their choice. Choose the set up and conditions let them come and feel and see it. After having realized their foolishness, they can go home wih a new perspective on what is real and what is a fantasy.

 

All the others as usual just talk and should be free to do so.

[gendao]

We had a chance to sit down with Jiang and he addressed this article with us. We didn't ask him to because we know it's bs, but he did it anyway because he wanted us to hear his side of the story. I wrote about it here: Link

 

When he changed the water for us, he did it with out breaking the seal on the bottles which were provided by our group. The water was then tested at three universities by mass-spectrometer, a special machine that determines the molecular structure of pretty much any known substance. These records our stored in a massive data base and used to compare to test material. What they found is that the water Jiang treated was not any known sugar or recorded compound; it was tested against millions of known moleculer structures by scientists and found to be an undocumented, unknown substance.

 

The article came out after one of Jiang's students wrote that he was a fraud on a blog in Asia. The local press interviewed him and created a sensational story that is a complete fabrication. The student has since retracted his statements and made a formal apology to Jiang. He even gave us his phone number if we wanted to talk to him and ask him what happened.

 

As it turns out several of his friends, treated by Jiang, recovered from serious health conditions as a result of the treatments.

 

The picture you see of the hand with the needles and 'jello' are fakes. That's not Jiang's hand and he proved it by showing us the article and letting us compare the picture with his hand. He also showed us these demonstrations and allowed doctors to observe and check the proceedure. I have witnessed these proceedures several times, and I have also been treated by Jiang. Jiang's abilities are completely legit in my observation; he does not use needles to break the skin, he uses qi and slaps the hell out of you. The affected blood and stagnation pool at an area determined by Jiang and he uses a suction cup to remove it. This is not a common practice in the sense that only master can do what Jiang does, but it is not unheard of either. A lot of people do cupping, just not in this way.

 

What's being pulled is diseased blood. The consistency can vary depending on the disorder being treated. The amount and speed that it is withdrawn with are remarkable.

 

Jiang did a number of very objective demonstrations and let the group document the proceedures and do checks to varify that he wasn't using needles.

 

This is a classic example of how things get distorted by the media. I was there. I also read the letter of apology from the student who started the whole thing and he clearly states that the article is a fabrication.

 

He was upset with Jiang because he wasn't getting to learn the methods as fast as he would have liked and because Jiang showed him how to train in the Xiao Dao, a lower order training done with tesla coils. This is not the Lei Shan Dao training, although it does have some applications in qigong, it has nothing to do with the training David or Jiang himself do. This is a typical type of test a teacher would give a student to test their patience.

 

Such devices cannot generate visible light from your naked hands, kill a man or drop him to the floor, leaving him sexually impotent for two months afterward, just with a hint of power; or drop an elephant, David has a video of that one. Neither can they control the intensity of power emitted and the form of it; from electric like pulsation to vibration to heat. Nor can they discharge and be recharged by using the life force of a bull as some have witnessed in their very own very body-mind.

 

Jiang, more then once has turned the water in my body and those of entire groups sweet with his qi field that appears and desappears, and the sweetened bodies ooze sweetness suddenly days after-but strangely not our clothes. The sweet taste is on your skin, in your sweat, saliva and urin for days; not to mention all the other abilities like burning and telekinesis and all the rest.

 

Many have seen it and know is real. What is needed are clinical studies if you want to prove something on a broad basis. Until then it's just a nice bedtime story to most.

 

According to David, the Chinese government has been engaged is this research for decades. Jiang participated among the many and Liping was head of the committee in the 80's, but after 40 years or more of research, they have not yet published anything, why? Because they do not have a paradigm, and when they tried to go public it backfired. Liping as well was accused of fraud and became wise enough to know that to go public without first creating the right context just creates confusion.

 

For everyone else, the true skeptic is welcome to test these claims. David has extended an open invitation for skeptics to come and test the reality of these things with their own body-mind, really the only way.

 

Let them bring a lawyer, a scientist and a doctor of their choice. Choose the set up and conditions let them come and feel and see it. After having realized their foolishness, they can go home wih a new perspective on what is real and what is a fantasy.

 

All the others as usual just talk and should be free to do so.

Thanks, Sean.

 

That is a very thorough and satisfactory response (at least for me).

 

I'd be curious to know what types of health conditions and infirmities he's actually cured.

[Taoist81]

When he changed the water for us, he did it with out breaking the seal on the bottles which were provided by our group. The water was then tested at three universities by mass-spectrometer, a special machine that determines the molecular structure of pretty much any known substance. These records our stored in a massive data base and used to compare to test material. What they found is that the water Jiang treated was not any known sugar or recorded compound; it was tested against millions of known moleculer structures by scientists and found to be an undocumented, unknown substance.

 

Sean, this is really important if it is true. Three universities?! Where were the results published? The discovery of a new "substance" created by qi manipulation of water would be a huge breakthrough.

 

According to David, the Chinese government has been engaged is this research for decades. Jiang participated among the many and Liping was head of the committee in the 80's, but after 40 years or more of research, they have not yet published anything, why? Because they do not have a paradigm, and when they tried to go public it backfired. Liping as well was accused of fraud and became wise enough to know that to go public without first creating the right context just creates confusion.

 

The chinese government has never had any problem with publishing material without a proper paradigm before. That is why the earliest acupuncture studies were/are so detested. If they are getting results in a controlled setting they would simply need to publish the method and results. Paradigms arise from evidence, not in order to publish it. When did it backfire before (unless you mean with the acupuncture studies, which didn't "backfire" because it caused better studies to be done)?

 

For everyone else, the true skeptic is welcome to test these claims. David has extended an open invitation for skeptics to come and test the reality of these things with their own body-mind, really the only way.

 

Let them bring a lawyer, a scientist and a doctor of their choice. Choose the set up and conditions let them come and feel and see it. After having realized their foolishness, they can go home wih a new perspective on what is real and what is a fantasy.

 

Where did he make this open invitation? If he did there are a number of respected skeptic groups (even excluding Randi's since you hate him) that would be glad to provide scientists and other experts to insure the validity of testing.

[dwai]

Bring it on. You "believers" don't have a prayer. One can't prove a negative. It's up to the claimant to prove the veracity of their claim. If I show a video of someone doing this and admitting it's a trick, what would that prove. Does anyone here doubt gravity? inertia? thermodynamics? Please spare me your "faith" in the impossible. I don't need faith to tell me gravity exists. It exists a priori to my belief in it.

 

Read this article --

 

The Battle between Science and Yoga

 

This is something I'd written to categorize the arguments Materialists have against seemingly psychic/extra-natural phenomena.

 

Physics isn't advanced enough to fathom everything and explain everything.

 

Cheers!

[Cameron]

Sean,

 

Will you guys be doing another US seminar next year? Any chance of bringing Jiang Sifu to the states? I thought I remember you mentioning you wanted to do that at some point.

 

Cam

[Zeus]

Sean,

 

Will you guys be doing another US seminar next year? Any chance of bringing Jiang Sifu to the states? I thought I remember you mentioning you wanted to do that at some point.

 

Cam

 

 

I see that the purpose of Sean, and his friends of the "immortal" David, is somehow accomplished. A new "army" of potential customers is about to grow up in the near future. The thread started as sifu's Chang debate, but somehow in the way Sean involved in a delicate(or not) manner.Good luck with your "bussiness".I hope that the "immortal" Verdesi, will achieve higher levels in the future, along with an equal bank account.

 

Don't fear my friends! There are many caves in China, and many thousands of candles to be burned, in order to create theatrical atmosphere for the westerners!! The "anthropologist" that the rumors say he charged 500-600 euros just to show sifu Chang to a westerner, has many solutions for the "buyers". The "immortal" Verdesi, was kicked out of Chang's house, because of the "tourist attraction" he created.

 

Beware all,from these "masters". Learn about them. What did they created in their lives? Did they had to work, like the majority of us?Did they ever value the earning of money due to work, or they inherited a large amount, and then ask from us 5000 euros? Did they had to get up early every morning, to get the money to support their families?

 

Enough said about Verdesi and his followers. He is the only to blame,not his followers, because he took advantage of Kostas and his books. Where he was all these years that Kostas was travelling to Indonesia? Kostas travelled so many times, taught so many people, and never got a dime about that. He just wanted to check his future student first, and then accept him. But now, if you have a credit card, then you have a "master". So sad indeed...

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Isnt Kosta making $$$ from his books?

 

I would like to see David do a demo of any skills and abilities he may have attained, anyone seen anything of David apart learn Foundation training?

 

comments?

 

WYG

[sheng zhen]

But now, if you have a credit card, then you have a "master". So sad indeed...

This is not true. It is not like that "now".

 

There are many masters you dont need a credit card to see. And if you realize this, it is not so sad after all...

 

And then, if it is not so sad...where does your argument go? Would you even feel the need to comment on people charging money for what they offer?

 

This whole discussion about Verdesi charging too much money is so childish. Who cares!? (...other than the people that WANT his teaching but WANT HIM to teach them for free) If he charges too much money then just dont go goddammit! Go to someone you feel your money is worth. Or someone that teaches for free. Its not like people shout about jewlery that costs too much money. They just buy something they can afford.

 

But some people will allways think that anything spiritual should be free just because they have been brought up to think is should not be associated with money or materialism. But this view is actually a way to keep it all closely connected to money. And it is a way to make your money a sin, or something coming from the devil, something that makes us loose focus on the spiritual(so give it all to the church instead!). If we only were free of the money and materialisim all would be fine.

 

But I think it is the other way around. If your not able to keep your spiritual focus within the world of materialisim, youre not able to keep your spiritual focus outside of materialism either.

 

One of my friends got really angry because he felt the Kunlun workshop was WAY to expencive and therefore those guys must be fraud, he said. Its just not a very refined view on what spirituality is. As if it is something completely different than what we experience everyday.

 

One thing that the critics of Foundation Training should remember is that no one who actually has been taught by Verdesi feel they have been tricked or not got what their money was worth. This is an important point to remember in this discussion.

[Cameron]

The Foundation training is actually comparable price wise to other authentic Taoist training I am familiar with.

 

Master Chen is a Wudang Longmen Pai Priest and his his 3 day course "The Master Within" here in Atlanta next month is $800. I think the last Foundation training that took place in Oregon was something like $1400 for a week of training.

 

By comparison, the Kunlun workshop is inexpensive at $300 for two days.

 

But if you develop a realationship with an authentic Taoist Master and don't have to pay them more power to you. Though even then some form of payment is probably good as a form of gratitude.

[Zeus]

Isnt Kosta making $$$ from his books?

 

No. Kostas spend a lot of money for travelling to Indonesia, and the amount he got back from the books is minus, in comparison for what he spend there, and for travel cost.

 

This is not true. It is not like that "now".

 

There are many masters you dont need a credit card to see. And if you realize this, it is not so sad after all...

 

And then, if it is not so sad...where does your argument go? Would you even feel the need to comment on people charging money for what they offer?

 

This whole discussion about Verdesi charging too much money is so childish. Who cares!? (...other than the people that WANT his teaching but WANT HIM to teach them for free) If he charges too much money then just dont go goddammit! Go to someone you feel your money is worth. Or someone that teaches for free. Its not like people shout about jewlery that costs too much money. They just buy something they can afford.

 

But some people will allways think that anything spiritual should be free just because they have been brought up to think is should not be associated with money or materialism. But this view is actually a way to keep it all closely connected to money. And it is a way to make your money a sin, or something coming from the devil, something that makes us loose focus on the spiritual(so give it all to the church instead!). If we only were free of the money and materialisim all would be fine.

 

But I think it is the other way around. If your not able to keep your spiritual focus within the world of materialisim, youre not able to keep your spiritual focus outside of materialism either.

 

One of my friends got really angry because he felt the Kunlun workshop was WAY to expencive and therefore those guys must be fraud, he said. Its just not a very refined view on what spirituality is. As if it is something completely different than what we experience everyday.

 

One thing that the critics of Foundation Training should remember is that no one who actually has been taught by Verdesi feel they have been tricked or not got what their money was worth. This is an important point to remember in this discussion.

 

 

 

I didnt see you question me, about the amount of Euros Verdesi charged for "tourism" in sifu's house. Though he received teachings from Chang for free, then himself charged money from a "thirsty" student for tutorship. I question his ethics, I question his morality.I'm in no position to know about him and his relationship with his current teacher Jiang. I only speak for the things I know, regarding sifu Chang.

 

How come he is been kicked off from sifu's house, if he was a descent character? Ethics and dignity, is much more important than gaining "power". And this man has no ethics or dignity. I don't question his teacher's power(obviously they are strong), but his lack of morality. He created a bussiness, on Kostas footsteps and books.

 

And I said it's sad, addressing to his students. They can't see that their teacher has the character of a spoiled child.A child that never worked in his life, and raised to be an "anthropologist".

 

 

Zeus

[sunshine]

One thing that the critics of Foundation Training should remember is that no one who actually has been taught by Verdesi feel they have been tricked or not got what their money was worth. This is an important point to remember in this discussion.

 

As this could be a weak spot... I actually do know of one or two who feel that way...

but this is and will be the case in all areas... not everybody will be satisfied, some

will be suspicous for more good or less good reasons. No one to blame.

Just the way things are.

 

 

Harry

[Gamuret]

...Though he received teachings from Chang for free, then himself charged money from a "thirsty" student for tutorship. I question his ethics, I question his morality.I'm in no position to know about him and his relationship with his current teacher Jiang. I only speak for the things I know, regarding sifu Chang...

 

I think Zeus has got a point here. IF David Verdesi received teachings from John Chang for free and then charged money to his students for leading them to John Chang, then this would be highly unethical.

 

Even if John Chang was just giving treatments to the people who were led to him by David Verdesi, it would be still very unethical if David Verdesi would charge these people in order to simply see John Chang, because John Chang gives his treatments free of charge.

 

And still there is the issue around David Verdesi's Ph. D. Where did he obtain his doctoral degree and when exactly?

 

If he doesn't have a Ph. D. then it is morally reprehensible that he advertises himself in such a way. If he indeed possesses a doctoral degree and doesn't want to disclose where, how and when he obtained it, then is unethical for him to boost his reputation in such a way, because the basic information about a Ph. D. is public information and since he puts up claims of scholarly excellence, he should be able to back them up.

 

G.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Gamuret

[sheng zhen]

I didnt see you question me, about the amount of Euros Verdesi charged for "tourism" in sifu's house. Though he received teachings from Chang for free, then himself charged money from a "thirsty" student for tutorship.

No I didnt. You know my issue here is with the beliefsystems that teachings should not cost money.

 

I dont know much about Verdesis history or anything else about the relationship he has to other people I dont know. And I dont trust rumors, especially those put forward on internet, so I want to wait with my judging about his ethics until I meet Verdesi myself.

[Zeus]

No I didnt. You know my issue here is with the beliefsystems that teachings should not cost money.

 

I dont know much about Verdesis history or anything else about the relationship he has to other people I dont know. And I dont trust rumors, especially those put forward on internet, so I want to wait with my judging about his ethics until I meet Verdesi myself.

[/quote

 

 

 

Fair enough.You have an open mind, and I hope everything works just fine Sheng Zhen. Just bare in mind to keep your mind open, and question everything(that's my small advice)

 

 

Zeus

[松永道]

I'm not justifying David here but charging a "finder's fee" is a pretty standard business practice. What would be unethical is if he didn't tell his masters that he was charging these people to meet them. If his masters were ok with it, I don't see the problem, not in business terms anyway.

 

The argument that he didn't work for it is absurd. There are many ways to make money, not all of them involve getting a 9 to 5 job. He learned Chinese, built these connections, and presumably practices many hours of qigong a day (which is harder than a majority of jobs out there). So, he's selling his experience just like anyone else. That's the way our economy works for better or worse

 

 

And now on a more whimsical note, the character Jing (精) or essence is composed of Mi (米) rice and Qing (青) green. The traditional character for Qi (气) is air or steam over Mi (米) rice. In neidan (内丹) practice you transform Jing (精) to Qi (气), then Qi (气) to Shen (神). In David's practice, you'll be eating rice (米) for a while after transforming your hard earned greenbacks (青) into Qi. So same thing right!

Edited May 13, 2008 by 松永道