John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Zeus]

I'm not justifying David here but charging a "finder's fee" is a pretty standard business practice. What would be unethical is if he didn't tell his masters that he was charging these people to meet them. If his masters were ok with it, I don't see the problem, not in business terms anyway.

 

The argument that he didn't work for it is absurd. There are many ways to make money, not all of them involve getting a 9 to 5 job. He learned Chinese, built these connections, and presumably practices many hours of qigong a day (which is harder than a majority of jobs out there). So, he's selling his experience just like anyone else. That's the way our economy works for better or worse

And now on a more whimsical note, the character Jing (精) or essence is composed of Mi (米) rice and Qing (青) green. The traditional character for Qi (气) is air or steam over Mi (米) rice. In neidan (内丹) practice you transform Jing (精) to Qi (气), then Qi (气) to Shen (神). In David's practice, you'll be eating rice (米) for a while after transforming your hard earned greenbacks (青) into Qi. So same thing right!

 

 

Of course they didnt know in sifu's house about the special "charge" of Verdesi. Otherwise, they wouldn't throw him out of the house. They are not crazy, you know.

 

As for the "work" thing, if someone has never worked in his life, he has no evaluation for the money. He/she can charge whatever he/she thinks, because he can't understand how difficult is to earn money( in a honest way)

 

I guess this is a matter of ethics too...

 

 

 

Zeus

[松永道]

Of course they didnt know in sifu's house about the special "charge" of Verdesi. Otherwise, they wouldn't throw him out of the house. They are not crazy, you know.

 

If this is indeed true then accorded to his own belief system he's piling on more karma to overcome.

[Procurator]

He learned Chinese,

err...correction: after at least 10 years of claiming study with the chinese masters he still does not learn chinese. He still uses a translator.

[sheng zhen]

If this is indeed true then accorded to his own belief system he's piling on more karma to overcome.

Yes, but still, karma is piling up if we dont learn and do the same mistakes over and over again. If we learn, adapt and evolve, karma is erased.

 

So if this was something happening many years ago, and now only an argument, what are we actually discussing here? The ethics of someone we dont know based on a rumor of something happening years ago? Its getting pretty vague...

[Pero]

Yes, but still, karma is piling up if we dont learn and do the same mistakes over and over again. If we learn, adapt and evolve, karma is erased.

 

Sorry, but that's not true. Karma isn't erased just because you learned from your past mistakes. Karma is piling up whether you learn from past mistakes or not, the difference is only that by learning from past mistakes you don't repeat them in the future and so don't accumulate more negative karma because of them.

[sheng zhen]

Sorry, but that's not true. Karma isn't erased just because you learned from your past mistakes. Karma is piling up whether you learn from past mistakes or not, the difference is only that by learning from past mistakes you don't repeat them in the future and so don't accumulate more negative karma because of them.

And how then is karma erased?

[Pero]

And how then is karma erased?

 

For normal people it isn't, we just accumulate more and more. But you can stop accumulation of negative karma by means of renouncing negative actions.

[Neikung]

The picture you see of the hand with the needles and 'jello' are fakes. That's not Jiang's hand and he proved it by showing us the article and letting us compare the picture with his hand. ...This is a classic example of how things get distorted by the media.

Attacking the picture in the article with a needle is pointless because the magazine already stated that it was only a model.

手法二 罐拔瘀血（模擬）

If you know Chinese, you can read the caption above the picture taken from the original article. It said in parenthesis, "moni" or proposed model. The magazine did state clearly that this picture, unlike all the others, was a model based on the proposed use of a needle (Sifu Jiang should have known about this). The writer was wrong about the needle but I wonder if one can simply tap a spot on the body very hard, cup, then tap again to break open a skin. Blood then naturally coagulates.

 

Jiang showed him how to train in the Xiao Dao, a lower order training done with tesla coils.

What is Xiao Dao with tesla coils? So what the student said about tesla coils was correct then. If you have a reference to the student's retraction, can you please provide the link to the article?

[Gamuret]

What is Xiao Dao with tesla coils? So what the student said about tesla coils was correct then. If you have a reference to the student's retraction, can you please provide the link to the article?

 

A very good point, you made Neikung. Sean Denty, some time ago you even mentioned that this disgruntled student will try to induce the paper that published the original article to put out another article, where everything will be retracted and the student will apologize. Can you please tell us in which newspaper exactly will this text appear?

 

Recently I received some information regarding David Verdesi and I would be interested to hear from you Sean Denty if you can confirm them.

 

 

David knows what he is doing and is in excellent health.

 

No, David is not in excellent health. Due to contracting dengue-fever in SE Asia he actually has such a sensitive

liver that he cannot even drink a glass of alcohol.

 

David often uses a translator, who is a native Chinese. He has been studying Chinese with her for about a year, but his language-skill is so poor that he has to continue to employ the translator. Prior to that David Verdesi never studied Chinese seriously and always employed translators.

 

One thing that the critics of Foundation Training should remember is that no one who actually has been taught by Verdesi feel they have been tricked or not got what their money was worth. This is an important point to remember in this discussion.

 

This is not quite accurate, sheng zhen. Some people who took part in David Verdesi's seminars actually felt cheated, because David Verdesi didn't inform them about the hidden costs in the form of special pills. The cost of pills could reach $ 15,000 to $ 20,000.

 

So, Sean Denty, back to the old question. Where and when did "Dr." David Verdesi obtain his Ph. D.?

 

G.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Gamuret

[sheng zhen]

For normal people it isn't, we just accumulate more and more. But you can stop accumulation of negative karma by means of renouncing negative actions.

And then how do we get rid of the karma we already have accumulated? Do we just stay that karmically fat the rest of eternity?? At what time in our evolution do you think we get the chance to make up for the karma we have accumulated?

 

I think the time is right here right now, in the choices(conscious and subconscious) we make everyday, every second. Every detail plays its part in representing the karmic play throughout the incarnations. And depending on our level of awakening we raise the level, or amount, of resolving karma.

 

This is not quite accurate, sheng zhen. Some people who took part in David Verdesi's seminars actually felt cheated, because David Verdesi didn't inform them about the hidden costs in the form of special pills. The cost of pills could reach $ 15,000 to $ 20,000.

Oooh, those number could really blow my mind and my participation in this discussion away... but to me it still sounds like its rumors. Where you there Gamuret? Do you have a friend who was there? Or is it information through a friend of a friend who has heard it through some unknown poster on an other internetforum?

[YMWong]

It's interesting however how the article shows the trick of the "sweet water" making use of an actual hidden-camera video.

 

The master asks the student to buy a bottle and opens it, to show that it is normal water

 

 

He then puts the cap on the table behing him to pour a cup of water to the student

 

 

so that his assistant has the time to change the cup with another containing the sweet substance

 

 

then he take the (new) cup and close it back, to start "issuing qi" to it

 

 

so the water can become sweet: see how she handles the bottle HORIZONTALLY ?

 

It is intersting to note that these three persons - 'Jiang', Wang Liping and the Magus of Java - all have totally different backgrounds that are completely unrelated (Shaolin Qigong, Longmen" and "Mopai") but they are all utilized under the "lei shan dao" brand --- which of course is DV's brand and is not found anywhere else.

 

YM

Edited May 13, 2008 by YMWong

[gendao]

^ Here is the key, though:

When he changed the water for us, he did it with out breaking the seal on the bottles which were provided by our group. The water was then tested at three universities by mass-spectrometer, a special machine that determines the molecular structure of pretty much any known substance. These records our stored in a massive data base and used to compare to test material. What they found is that the water Jiang treated was not any known sugar or recorded compound; it was tested against millions of known moleculer structures by scientists and found to be an undocumented, unknown substance.

According to Sean...Jiang changed the water WITHOUT ever opening the bottles first...which were provided by Sean's group.

 

Certainly, the loose scenario shown in the article would have allowed trickery. Not necessarily proven so, but it would have been fairly easily doable.

 

However, perhaps as a result of that article, Jiang might have decided to "tighten" his act up for succeeding groups like Sean's. In order to better preclude the possibility of fraud in anyone's minds. Which I have not seen direct, "red-handed" evidence of yet. Just some healthy skepticism...but speculation that would now be disproven based upon Sean's own personal testimony (if you can believe that).

 

When someone can demo their abilities without their own set-up using materials that you provide, that's always evidence towards their authenticity.

 

Anyhow, for those of us willing to entertain the possibility that he is legit - I would like to know and discuss exactly how and what he was doing to make the water sweet?

[Gamuret]

It is intersting to note that these three persons - 'Jiang', Wang Liping and the Magus of Java - all have totally different backgrounds that are completely unrelated (Shaolin Qigong, Longmen" and "Mopai") but they are all utilized under the "lei shan dao" brand --- which of course is DV's brand and is not found anywhere else.

 

YM

 

Exactly! I was also asking myself why "lei shan dao" is never being mentioned in any serious scholarly source.

Sure, you have the wu lei fa - the thunder rites of the Zheng Yi sect and other things. But lei shan dao? Never heard of it before.

 

Is this something that David Verdesi simply invented?

 

And why does Zhai Jiangfeng state that his' arts are those of Kangmen Qigong?

Edited May 13, 2008 by Gamuret

[sunshine]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

I hardly ever do this but it gets sooooooooooooooo booooooooooooooooooooring.

 

Discussed over and over again, and again, and again... and again.

 

Guys. Read the olds threads and let it be.

 

Seriously. Even if I were not a student:

the red arrow for pointing at "the cap"... are you serious? It could point at anything and nothing!

Even Master Jiang holding the cup does not tell were he took it from. Could have been from the table

beside the one the guy was holding his arm at...

 

Anyone basing his arguments on these pictures.. naaaaaaa... I won't say it.

 

Please keep in mind: I do NOT say that it is not a trick, I just state that the arguments for claiming it to be a trick a just and simply and truly WEAK!

 

Further: it was never said that Master Liping is just a practitioner of Lei Shan Dao or is mainly practicing it!

 

Money for treatments: yes indeed. It was said that some had to pay very high amounts for the herbal pills. Explanations have been given for explaining the costs:

costs of the raw substances (already some wild ginseng can cost quite a lot: http://www.dragonherbs.com/prodinfo.asp?number=001 ).. time invested of master and student to charge the pills with their qi over a longer period of time etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. (note: I assume the prices to go up. With China changing, raw substances of proper quality becoming less and less available...!)

 

Believe it if you want. Don't if you don't want. Lamenting over it is purely fruitless, time consuming and a few other things...!

 

So you are not healthy if your liver is sensitive and you can not drink a glass of alcohol???

Come on. Are you serious???

Many people consume serious amounts of alcohol. Is the reversed logic then true?

 

David learning Chinese. It's true. He does not have to be a proficient day-to-day talker to interact properly with masters though, does he? If you believe he does you are on the wrong track...!

 

Master John Chang and David. Most assuming or claiming Sean is making things up have nothing in their hand to disprove it in any agreeable manner and way. Why not stop speculating? Again. It's pointless, fruitless, if at all fulfills only a very human basic desire: to chat on a mere superficial level...

 

sorry guys. Go back to the old threads if you want to fulfill your needs for fruitless discussions and exchange. There have been people doing it before you. You save yourself the time and spend your energies in a much more profound and beneficial manner.

 

Man. Am I rambling... must be my gallstones being active...

 

I know. I know. Hulda-Clak gallstone flushing... soon to be done...

 

 

Harry

[sunshine]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

I hardly ever do this but it gets sooooooooooooooo booooooooooooooooooooring.

 

Discussed over and over again, and again, and again... and again.

 

Guys. Read the olds threads and let it be.

 

Seriously. Even if I were not a student:

the red arrow for pointing at "the cap"... are you serious? It could point at anything and nothing!

Even Master Jiang holding the cup does not tell were he took it from. Could have been from the table

beside the one the guy was holding his arm at...

 

Anyone basing his arguments on these pictures.. naaaaaaa... I won't say it.

 

Please keep in mind: I do NOT say that it is not a trick, I just state that the arguments for claiming it to be a trick a just and simply and truly WEAK!

 

Further: it was never said that Master Liping is just a practitioner of Lei Shan Dao or is mainly practicing it!

 

Money for treatments: yes indeed. It was said that some had to pay very high amounts for the herbal pills. Explanations have been given for explaining the costs:

costs of the raw substances (already some wild ginseng can cost quite a lot: http://www.dragonherbs.com/prodinfo.asp?number=001 ).. time invested of master and student to charge the pills with their qi over a longer period of time etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. (note: I assume the prices to go up. With China changing, raw substances of proper quality becoming less and less available...!)

 

Believe it if you want. Don't if you don't want. Lamenting over it is purely fruitless, time consuming and a few other things...!

 

So you are not healthy if your liver is sensitive and you can not drink a glass of alcohol???

Come on. Are you serious???

Many people consume serious amounts of alcohol. Is the reversed logic then true?

 

David learning Chinese. It's true. He does not have to be a proficient day-to-day talker to interact properly with masters though, does he? If you believe he does you are on the wrong track...!

 

Master John Chang and David. Most assuming or claiming Sean is making things up have nothing in their hand to disprove it in any agreeable manner and way. Why not stop speculating? Again. It's pointless, fruitless, if at all fulfills only a very human basic desire: to chat on a mere superficial level...

 

sorry guys. Go back to the old threads if you want to fulfill your needs for fruitless discussions and exchange. There have been people doing it before you. You can save yourself the time and spend your energies in a much more profound and beneficial manner.

 

Man. Am I rambling... must be my gallstones being active...

 

I know. I know. Hulda-Clak gallstone flushing... soon to be done...

 

 

Harry

Edited May 13, 2008 by sunshine

[YMWong]

^ Here is the key, though:According to Sean...Jiang changed the water WITHOUT ever opening the bottles first...which were provided by Sean's group.

 

Well, I for one deeply trust that Sean honestly believes what he *saw* and that his report is - in that respect - absolutely accurate.

 

We all, however, have the tendency to *see* only what we *want* to see, hear what we want to hear ... guess you get my point. So, for the time being, I think that for all those of us who have not attended the seminar the pictures are a better mirror of what *might* have happened.

 

YM

[Gamuret]

Further: it was never said that Master Liping is just a practitioner of Lei Shan Dao or is mainly practicing it!

 

So you are not healthy if your liver is sensitive and you can not drink a glass of alcohol???

Come on. Are you serious??? Many people consume serious amounts of alcohol. Is the reversed logic then true?

 

David learning Chinese. It's true. He does not have to be a proficient day-to-day talker to interact properly with masters though, does he? If you believe he does you are on the wrong track...!

 

Harry, you and Sean Denty still don't get the point. The point is not about powers, but about the fact that David Verdesi seems to employ half-truths and outright lies in order to promote his enterprise.

 

He makes claims of scholarly excellence and tight connections with the Chinese government and yet cannot back either of them up with names and dates through which one could verify these very same claims.

 

And you yourself are constantly using the strategy of obfuscating and spinning - like Sean Denty. Look, nobody said or questioned Wang Liping being a practitioner of "lei shan dao". We simply pointed out two things:

 

a.) "lei shan dao" doesn't seem to be mentioned in any serious scholarly literature

 

b.) Verdesi's masters seem to belong to entirely different schools, which may or may not be related

 

Don't forget. It was Sean Denty who came to this board advertising his teacher.

 

And when somebody asks him simple and direct questions about David Verdesi or his credentials, then he gets a hysterical fit and throws a temper-tantrum like a little child.

 

Badges, we don't need no stinking badges!

 

...

 

No, why would I. I certainly am not interested in sharing anything with you. Your an asshole. To the sincere people who have inquired privately, I have already answered. David holds numerous titles which he happily showed me and others. Wang Liping and his other teachers are not public figures, but their position remains regardless of what you or anyone thinks. It is of no consequesnce whether you believe me or not. As far as I'm concerned you and Buddy can go fuck eachother.

 

These are the signes of maturity on which Sean Denty prides himself so much?

 

And Harry, if you are so bored, then do not participate in the discussion. It's really that simple.

 

G.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Gamuret

[gendao]

We all, however, have the tendency to *see* only what we *want* to see, hear what we want to hear ... guess you get my point. So, for the time being, I think that for all those of us who have not attended the seminar the pictures are a better mirror of what *might* have happened.

I agree. With a good magician, even though you know it's fake, you usually still can't tell how the hell he does it...

 

But no matter how good a magician is, he generally relies a LOT on his particular trick props and set-up.

 

So, while it may be hard for any untrained eye to spot their "trick," it's far easier to simply prevent it by randomly dictating the set-up and supplying the props yourself. And if that was the case with Sean's experience, then that would lend credence to Jiang's authenticity.

[Gamuret]

David learning Chinese. It's true. He does not have to be a proficient day-to-day talker to interact properly with masters though, does he? If you believe he does you are on the wrong track...!

 

Harry

 

David Verdesi knows barely enough Chinese to order a lunch for himself.

 

Just take a look at Michael Saso or Kristofer Schipper. They are also anthropologists who have done extensive field-research in the Taiwanese Daoist community. Both are initated Daoist priest and have mastered modern as well as classical Chinese.

 

The point is that Verdesi and Sean Denty emphasize how David Verdesi speaks Chinese in order to give him the aura of an expert and to attract clientele, while Verdesi in fact has to employ a translator.

 

Harry, it's not about powers, it's about honesty. And you can spin it as much as you want and try to find as many excuses as you want and it will still be about honesty.

 

Regards,

 

G.

[sunshine]

Harry, you and Sean Denty still don't get the point. The point is not about powers, but about the fact that David Verdesi seems to employ half-truths and outright lies in order to promote his enterprise.

 

Finally contrary to others you luckily get the point: it is NOT about powers!!!

 

I assume you have never really closely read what I wrote. Otherwise what you wrote above could sure not include me. I am not missing anything here! Even the part you cite of me has nothing to do with your above statement. Gamuret. Whoever you are: Who are you to state these are half-truths and outright lies???

 

The way you ask for the prove of a PhD, the way I hope you could provide proof for your statement of the above. I assume you can't but just continue to state it over and over again without being able to in any agreeable and true manner provide any facts.

 

 

He makes claims of scholarly excellence and tight connections with the Chinese government and yet cannot back either of them up with names and dates through which one could verify claims.

 

I have no insights into this. But I have a pretty clear view about the necessitiy of it:

HE DOES NOT HAVE TO PROFF ANYTHING. NEITHER TO YOU NOR ANYONE ELSE!!!

 

 

And you yourself are constantly using the strategy of obfuscating and spinning - like Sean Denty. Look, nobody said or questioned Wang Liping being a practitioner of "lei shan dao". We simply pointed out two things:

 

Yeah. Sombody already assumed I AM Sean Denty...

 

a.) "lei shan dao" doesn't seem to be mentioned in any serious scholarly literature

 

Well. It's an argument of no major consequence. There are quite a few traditions that were never put onto paper... with every congress on Chinese medicine I learn about old traditions in China that modern day China claims to have never existed. I have heard old modern day acupuncturists state that emotional treatments in China were never utilized... them stating it is of no true meaning, as there are old traditions who always did it.

Do you really believe everything has to be layed out and codified on paper to have been in existence???

 

Again. I don't say Lei Shan Dao has ever existed. I believe my teacher in this... but your argument against it once again is just non-profoundly weak (I know I know. Part of the strategy of obfuscating and spinning... maybe even passive-aggressive...)

 

b.) Verdesi's masters seem to belong to entirely different schools, which may or may not be related

 

Yes. To certain extent that is true. Where in heaven is the problem you hint at???

 

Don't forget. It was Sean Denty who came to this board advertising his teacher.

 

I very much know. Without it I wouldn't have known about him. I had the chance to decide to go and see for myself. I went and saw. I have my fair share of doubts, I have my fair share of security.

 

And when somebody asks him simple and direct questions about David Verdesi or his credentials, then he gets a hysterical fit and throws a temper-tantrum like a little child.

 

If what you state as impression indeed is true (and I don't think you ask me for evaluating Sean's representation here), let me just state that my impression is that many of the counterarguments given and the manners they are given would have to be qualified on the same level.

 

just my gall stones being active

 

 

Harry

 

And Harry, if you are so bored, then do not participate in the discussion. It's really that simple.

 

 

It's not that simple. People are attacking my teacher here. It might be immature but I jump in and defend... and I don't raise any false claims. I just point out the weakness of given counterarguments... maybe immature but my nature...

 

 

 

 

Harry, it's not about powers, it's about honesty. And you can spin it as much as you want and try to find as many excuses as you want and it will still be about honesty.

 

Again. I am happy you state the first part. Regarding the spinning I want to repeat. You seem to have never closely enough read what I had to stay... then you would know I am not providing any excuses for anything...

regarding honesty. I see about no honesty in most of the counter-statements!

 

 

Harry

Edited May 13, 2008 by sunshine

[Gamuret]

Yes, Harry, some of the posts regarding David Verdesi that certain members of this forum made were indeed more of an emotional outburst than sober discussion.

 

Still, the questions remain.

 

It's not that simple. People are attacking my teacher here. It might be immature but I jump in and defend... and I don't raise any false claims. I just point out the weakness of given counterarguments... maybe immature but my nature...

 

I can understand that and I do appreciate you candor. You defending your teacher is quite natural.

 

The problem is not with you, but with David Verdesi. If he can't stand the heat, then he maybe should

get out of the kitchen, stay in China and quietly do whatever he does, without advertising himself.

 

Best,

 

G.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Gamuret

[Pero]

And then how do we get rid of the karma we already have accumulated? Do we just stay that karmically fat the rest of eternity?? At what time in our evolution do you think we get the chance to make up for the karma we have accumulated?

 

For most people, karma just comes to fruition. Negative or positive.

There is no "making up". This is viewing it in a sense of "I did something wrong and now I have to to do something good to make up for it". But it's not like that. Good action creates positive karma, bad action negative. If you steal someones money in order to give it to charity for example, you'll accumulate both positive and negative karma.

Vajrayana has methods of purification though and maybe lower vehicles too, I don't know.

 

(edit: that is at least according to my poor understanding)

Edited May 13, 2008 by Pero

[松永道]

He still uses a translator.

 

Seriously??

[Gamuret]

Yes, Song Yongdao, David Verdesi still uses a translator. Procurator is absolutely right. One of his translators is a Chinese female who at the same teaches him Chinese.

 

David Verdesi started to learn Chinese only about a year ago and his language-skills are supposedly still very bad and he has to continue using translators to communicate with his own masters.

 

Sorry, for bursting in, your question was adressed at Procurator, therefore I should let him answer. I just wanted to confirm what was said previously.

 

G.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Gamuret

[松永道]

...he has to continue using translators to communicate with his own masters.

 

 

To interact with masters you don't need to be fluent. But to really learn you do. Not to mention you absolutely can't work as a competent anthropologist without knowing the language!

 

Wow.

 

That's inexcusable.

 

Thanks for the investigative reporting Gamuret.

Edited May 13, 2008 by 松永道