John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Procurator]

Seriously??

yes. seriously. although i can not help but laugh too, so many folks have been had its kinda funny.

[DentyDao]

[Gamuret]

Edited May 13, 2008 by Gamuret

[gendao]

Edited May 13, 2008 by vortex

[Wayfarer64]

Sean & Harry,

 

I wish no conflict with folks who I believe are being misled. I wish to question the influences that sway them onto dubious paths. I also do not seek peace for its' own sake. Often times the courage needed to resist and challange is more important to exhibit than the much prefered peaceful attitudes we all hope will prevail...

 

Thus, I do not wish conflict. I am tho... a warrior at heart. I have fought the lies and the actual beings who are part of the KKK, of neo-nazis, of corrupt landlords, and filthy police departments in NYC... as well as any bully that happens to threaten the weak under their thrall, (if/when I am around to curtail such behavior)...

 

I often need to hold my speach in check when prudent -as when I was in Burma and could not get out if I were to be a known problem to the Ni Win regime...But I will always challange those who I believe are corrupting/mis-using/ harming my fellow human beings or other senscient beings for that matter.

 

I think conflict is a natural state at times, & that there is a need to fight many forms of evil in this world. That is not to say I think DSV is actually evil... merely greedy and manipulative of the avid seekers he wishes to sway into his sphere of influence.

 

While it is true I have come to hold Sean in some contempt due to his language and attitude, I have a great respect for Harry and his obvious good heartedness...Sobeit... we all make personal choices that have repercussions. I do not in any way want to foster ill will. But I will not stand by when I see charlatanism at play as I do with DSV ... it just does not ring true to my open ears mind and heart...

 

I am sad to say so- I actually wish it were not so...

 

Peace may reign yet on this thread but not for its' own sake...

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

 

While it is true I have come to hold Sean in some contempt due to his language and attitude, I have a great respect for Harry and his obvious good heartedness...Sobeit... we all make personal choices that have repercussions. I do not in any way want to foster ill will. But I will not stand by when I see charlatanism at play as I do with DSV ... it just does not ring true to my open ears mind and heart...

 

I am sad to say so- I actually wish it were not so...

 

Peace may reign yet on this thread but not for its' own sake...

Pat,

 

The sad thing is you couldn't be more wrong. This is about your personal pride. This is about your own beliefs and bad experiences with other teachers.

 

You have never met David or any of his students. You are caught up in a personal battle with yourself. This is not about David, it never has been.

 

This about how you feel you are perceived by the members here and perputating the image of a yourself that you have created; the guy who is concerned about other people and always fights the good fight. It;s a fantasy.

 

David has students study with him for years without paying; David trusts them to pay when they can. It's not really about the money. It's about affinity. He is a wonderful, successful teacher who has meaningful teaching practice and life that exist outside of the Taobums world and your ability to see clearly.

 

David's students are his friends and have a deep respect for him; they are not sheep or people who need saving from you. They just live in a different world than you do. They don't live in fear and distrust and falsly accuse others and start ongoing trashing sessions that last months, that they can never let go and put down and never see in a different light; or try to understand the point of view of the other side.

 

The truth is, if Harry didn't tip toe around you, if he let one word slip that he was offended by you; you would out of some pretense of pity, quickly include him in your list of 'suckers, and greedy, misled fools.' Indeed you all ready have.

 

On what basis do you continue this kind of shit.. I mean do you even realize that there are other people on the other end of the computer line or is this some kind of game for you.

 

 

 

Sean

Edited May 13, 2008 by seandenty

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[sunshine]

Hi Sean,

 

let me jump in for a moment. In all honesty. That which is a truth for you because you yourself have seen and experienced things others haven't, must come across as exaggerated claims to those who did not. It is a trap to continue to tell your truths, simply because most simply can't accept the possibility of them being true. There is about nothing you could do to not be under "attacks" of well voiced scepticism but unfortunately much too often scepticism voiced on weak ground in the way of counter-claims, neglect and attacks.

 

I appreciate all sceptics out there. You might not believe it, but I am one myself. To me it is simple. I go and see myself... this includes the chance of walking a long distance to come to a bitter conclusion. Nevertheless to me that is the only true path to walk. I am well aware of the possible counter-arguments one could now raise... but so far there are absolutely no claims against or views about David that I could consider more true than what I know and have experienced so far myself.

 

The topic started being about John Chang. From what we know via internet John Chang has often been called a fraud. People have spoken bad about him and a lot of claims have been made up. To those that jump in for him but attack David at the same time, it might be an idea to always keep that in the back of your minds...

 

gossip is quickly spread.

 

Pat: I sent you a private mail

 

 

Harry

 

 

 

Hi Sean,

 

let me jump in for a moment. In all honesty. That which is a truth for you because you yourself have seen and experienced things others haven't, must come across as exaggerated claims to those who did not. It is a trap to continue to tell your truths, simply because most simply can't accept the possibility of them being true. There is about nothing you could do to not be under "attacks" of well voiced scepticism but unfortunately much too often scepticism voiced on weak ground in the way of counter-claims, neglect and attacks.

 

I appreciate all sceptics out there. You might not believe it, but I am one myself. To me it is simple. I go and see myself... this includes the chance of walking a long distance to come to a bitter conclusion. Nevertheless to me that is the only true path to walk. I am well aware of the possible counter-arguments one could now raise... but so far there are absolutely no claims against or views about David that I could consider more true than what I know and have experienced so far myself.

 

The topic started being about John Chang. From what we know via internet John Chang has often been called a fraud. People have spoken bad about him and a lot of claims have been made up. To those that jump in for him but attack David at the same time, it might be an idea to always keep that in the back of your minds...

 

gossip is quickly spread.

 

Pat: I sent you a private mail

 

 

Harry

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[sheng zhen]

To me it is simple. I go and see myself...

It is so simple. But if everybody knew that we wouldnt have fun discussions like this one. So shhhh, dont say it out loud

[sunshine]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[DentyDao]

Harry,

 

I respect your position entirely. I do understand that you are a skeptic. Believe it or not, I am too, but I went and tested my doubts unlike David's detractors.

 

The point is these people aren't skeptical, they are obsessed. It would be one thing to post on a thread once or twice and say, this is probably BS and here's why. But people are making statements of absolute knowledge and going way beyond skepticism.

 

But I will not stand by when I see charlatanism at play as I do with DSV

 

What bothers me is exactly what you said. David Verdesi and Sean Denty repeatedly try to harness the academia in order to boost Verdesi's credentials.

 

He has been travelling and living in Chinese-speaking areas and still cannot speak Chinese properly.

 

Song Yongdao, what bothers me is the fact that David Verdesi makes high-sounding claims, which he cannot or does not want to back up. And the only reason why he boasts around with his (non-existent?) academic accomplishments is in order to attract people and get money from them.

 

not to say I think DSV is actually evil... merely greedy and manipulative of the avid seekers he wishes to sway into his sphere of influence.

 

Due to contracting dengue-fever in SE Asia he actually has such a sensitive

liver that he cannot even drink a glass of alcohol.

 

I could triple this list just by going back a page. These are presented as statements of fact along with:

 

1. David never even studied with John Chang.

2. He just started studying Chinese a year ago.

3. He's claiming he has a PhD (he not actually publically claiming this, although I believe he does have one based on what he told me.)

4. David is greedy.

5. Dishonest.

6. Unethical.

 

There is a level of hate that comes from deep insecurity here, not skepticism.

 

Ultimately people can think for themselves, so it does bother me on an emotional level. But their claims are so outragous that, even though I'm just a student, I can't help but interject and give my perspective. It's just pure crap.

 

David is making no claims; his students created the website the forum in closed. The only research David is publicly claiming is his own personal research. Gamerute is looking at a few things I have said a on a chat forum and and a few claims made by a student of David's on his old website; from that he starts ranting full blast about what a scam the whole thing is. I mean could there be a more clear case of personal bias?

 

And then after he prints my private conversations with him in public, claims he won't reveal his identity because he is afraid I will physicly harm him and goes on a personal campaign to discredit me and David, he then claims I'm being hysterical when I don't go running to David to hunt down this personal information for his. I don't have a private line to David, we are friends, but it just would be appropriate for me to call him everytime someone has a question.

 

If my insult, which was done with no hysterics ( I don't get hysterical unless I'm at a party), seems so uncalled for to Gameruet , then I think he needs a lesson in basic manners. I was actually very polite the first time he raised the question and gave as much info as I had, which wasn't much. Thta's when Gamerute starts beating the whole scam drum, and not just once or twice, but on and on and on, without any new information, just accusations and rhetoric and statements presented as facts that are actually just rumors and nonsense.

 

I did eventually ask David to provide some general information about his academic study. I have already posted that and given names and contact information. Again David is not publicly presenting himself as a PhD, so the point that he is using that to rip people off is not really valid.

 

I will read through the website and see what is there. Perhaps I will suggest a revision if there is anything there that could lead to any misunderstanding. But, people don't come to David for his credentials. They come because he is one of the best teachers out there and because he has successfully cultivated himself.

 

Even if these were valid concerns, is that really a good reason to condemn someone and try to publicly discredit them?

 

I don't think so, this is about obession and power. Gamerute and others have been around since the beginning of the Mo Pai thing. They think they are being shut out for one reason or anotherand they really want the knowledge; but because they lack faith in themselves, they attack others.

 

Some of these, a choice few, became so obsessed that they started threatening Kostas and others. All kinds of wierd stuff. Instead of being nice and just asking privately, they hacked Kostas forum and destroyed it.

 

What I hope Gamerute will realize at some point is that, he isn't serving anyone with this kind of behavior. He's directing his outrage at the wrong person for one; I'm just a student of David's. Even if I wanted to, I can't provide the information and answers. There is only so much I know. I don't have the kind of relationship with David where I can act as his representative or his 'voice.' And it wouldn't be fair to ask me hunt David down and say, "Gamerute needs a copy of your PhD faxed over and he's really pissed." LOL.

 

I will send an email and see what David says; he may say nothing. He's not interested in promoting himself in that way. Whatever was said on the website was said about his personal research. He does hold Tu Di Status to some of the most respected masters out there and that is government issue and real and very rare. The amount of education and dedication it takes to earn these titles make a PhD totally meaningless by comparison.

 

I mean Michael Sasso, you might as well say Michale Winn. The guy has nothing. Oddly enough, most academics are usually just that. Did you know you can get a PhD from Michael Winn in cooperation with Great Western University in CA. I mean, this is a totally meaningless program based on pop psycology; who gives a shit.

 

You can write a thousand books and still not know a single fart about what it takes to become immortal or enlightened. All the PhD's in the world are worthless when it come to liberation and enlightenment and none of these so called experts is or ever will become enlightened.

[Gamuret]

I think it's really pointless to argue. I said what I had to say and you said what you had to say, Sean Denty.

 

Time will tell who was speaking the truth.

 

Best,

 

G.

[DentyDao]

I think it's really pointless to argue. I said what I had to say and you said what you had to say, Sean Denty.

 

Time will tell who was speaking the truth.

 

Best,

 

G.

Agreed 100%

 

Have a nice day.

[scualo blanco]

Sean and Harry

 

Noone is really attacking David.

 

You speak and advertise him in a thred for some lineage that you are not into.

You could do that in another place.

 

I believe that his teachers, or at least some of them really have the goods. I believe that he may be one of the best practisioners out there (I don't believe his is in level 4 though).

However, that doesn't give him the excuse to abuse daoism, spirituality etc.

 

Master John Chang and David. Most assuming or claiming Sean is making things up have nothing in their hand to disprove it in any agreeable manner and way. Why not stop speculating? Again. It's pointless, fruitless, if at all fulfills only a very human basic desire: to chat on a mere superficial level...

 

Have you ever thought that is you that makes the speculations? That maybe some people here are members of the pai and are personal students of John Chang and can speak from first hand experience about him and his relationship with David?

I understant that you want to defent him. But keep in mind that he maybe tells you what he chooses to tell.

And I don't think that the continuation of this conversation will do good in their allready bad relationship.

 

Telling that he is a good friend with sifu Chang.....what can I say? He is not. You can believe whatever makes you happy though.

 

About Wang Liping. If he only had 2 tudi in his life (which I don't think is the truth) and one is David who at the same time is the only one who can teach the sen fa of his lineage, so do the maths...That isn't a proof that David is THE man. It only shows that David has the acces to the Westerners, the money etc. It is very logical to give him the wright to teach. More money for him. Wang is a clever one. he knowa that only from the Westerners can make money.

If it is so, I don't care about Wang Liping either.

 

This is not about the money. I am not against charging some money at a reasonable cost. I know how things are in life.

But spending thousands of euros for reverse breathing and Zhang zhuang along with some "candle daoist hermits".... come on....

 

You hijacked a thread about something out of your territory only for speaking about david again.

 

This is the realy boring thing and not the other way around.

 

You are so defending about everything that David claims, and you have choose to close your eyes and ears and all of your senses to everything out of your world. This is the meaning of the world "cult" gentlemen and I would be very carefull if I was you.....

 

Keep your eyes open and don't consider David a holy man who speaks the truth and only that.....

 

SB

 

 

ps1. do you really want to speak for the supposed leaking of Jiang video in youtube? Please....

 

ps2. How is David a friend with sifu Chang? Have you forgotten what David allready wrote in Andrea's forum and in his? About the quallity of the teachings, if sifu paints his hair black, if he doesn't remember the exercises, that he makes money with other ways etc, that he doesn't have the way to advance in his lineage and many other things about spirits and "into the house matters" that he had no wright to write about?

Edited May 13, 2008 by scualo blanco

[shidoin]

Harry,

 

I respect your position entirely. I do understand that you are a skeptic. Believe it or not, I am too, but I went and tested my doubts unlike David's detractors.

 

The point is these people aren't skeptical, they are obsessed. It would be one thing to post on a thread once or twice and say, this is probably BS and here's why. But people are making statements of absolute knowledge and going way beyond skepticism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could triple this list just by going back a page. These are presented as statements of fact along with:

 

1. David never even studied with John Chang.

2. He just started studying Chinese a year ago.

3. He's claiming he has a PhD (he not actually publically claiming this, although I believe he does have one based on what he told me.)

4. David is greedy.

5. Dishonest.

6. Unethical.

 

There is a level of hate that comes from deep insecurity here, not skepticism.

 

Ultimately people can think for themselves, so it does bother me on an emotional level. But their claims are so outragous that, even though I'm just a student, I can't help but interject and give my perspective. It's just pure crap.

 

David is making no claims; his students created the website the forum in closed. The only research David is publicly claiming is his own personal research. Gamerute is looking at a few things I have said a on a chat forum and and a few claims made by a student of David's on his old website; from that he starts ranting full blast about what a scam the whole thing is. I mean could there be a more clear case of personal bias?

 

And then after he prints my private conversations with him in public, claims he won't reveal his identity because he is afraid I will physicly harm him and goes on a personal campaign to discredit me and David, he then claims I'm being hysterical when I don't go running to David to hunt down this personal information for his. I don't have a private line to David, we are friends, but it just would be appropriate for me to call him everytime someone has a question.

 

If my insult, which was done with no hysterics ( I don't get hysterical unless I'm at a party), seems so uncalled for to Gameruet , then I think he needs a lesson in basic manners. I was actually very polite the first time he raised the question and gave as much info as I had, which wasn't much. Thta's when Gamerute starts beating the whole scam drum, and not just once or twice, but on and on and on, without any new information, just accusations and rhetoric and statements presented as facts that are actually just rumors and nonsense.

 

I did eventually ask David to provide some general information about his academic study. I have already posted that and given names and contact information. Again David is not publicly presenting himself as a PhD, so the point that he is using that to rip people off is not really valid.

 

I will read through the website and see what is there. Perhaps I will suggest a revision if there is anything there that could lead to any misunderstanding. But, people don't come to David for his credentials. They come because he is one of the best teachers out there and because he has successfully cultivated himself.

 

Even if these were valid concerns, is that really a good reason to condemn someone and try to publicly discredit them?

 

I don't think so, this is about obession and power. Gamerute and others have been around since the beginning of the Mo Pai thing. They think they are being shut out for one reason or anotherand they really want the knowledge; but because they lack faith in themselves, they attack others.

 

Some of these, a choice few, became so obsessed that they started threatening Kostas and others. All kinds of wierd stuff. Instead of being nice and just asking privately, they hacked Kostas forum and destroyed it.

 

What I hope Gamerute will realize at some point is that, he isn't serving anyone with this kind of behavior. He's directing his outrage at the wrong person for one; I'm just a student of David's. Even if I wanted to, I can't provide the information and answers. There is only so much I know. I don't have the kind of relationship with David where I can act as his representative or his 'voice.' And it wouldn't be fair to ask me hunt David down and say, "Gamerute needs a copy of your PhD faxed over and he's really pissed." LOL.

 

I will send an email and see what David says; he may say nothing. He's not interested in promoting himself in that way. Whatever was said on the website was said about his personal research. He does hold Tu Di Status to some of the most respected masters out there and that is government issue and real and very rare. The amount of education and dedication it takes to earn these titles make a PhD totally meaningless by comparison.

 

I mean Michael Sasso, you might as well say Michale Winn. The guy has nothing. Oddly enough, most academics are usually just that. Did you know you can get a PhD from Michael Winn in cooperation with Great Western University in CA. I mean, this is a totally meaningless program based on pop psycology; who gives a shit.

 

You can write a thousand books and still not know a single fart about what it takes to become immortal or enlightened. All the PhD's in the world are worthless when it come to liberation and enlightenment and none of these so called experts is or ever will become enlightened.

 

Thanks Everyone for joining the David verdesi Forum. come on really guys, Who gives a shit about David? I don't care if he has a Phd, is Friends with John Djiang, Wang or even santa Clause!!! You want to talk about David then post a damn video of him. I'd like to see a video! why arn't there any? Why? is he full of shit? if he can do what he says and he isn't using tricks then we need A VIDEO. Until then I wouldn't give him a dime for anything-- I don't just go by someones word

[voidisyinyang]

The male jing wasted on this thread = 1 large bull whose life force was sucked into David.

[shidoin]

The male jing wasted on this thread = 1 large bull whose life force was sucked into David.

[voidisyinyang]

I'm serious. Ask about the Bull getting it's life-forced sucked till it died just so David could be worshipped by Sean! haha. It's a REAL story and would add so much to this thread. haha.

[Trash Filter]

In my opinion and experience both David Verdesi money making program and Kunlun are both like cults with money making and/or ego center. In max book he claims his dna modified under a prestigious lab that no one knows. Whilst David charge $1000 of dollars to teach tai chi, as well as $100s just to go on a forum which he never visits. People got stop wasting there time with cults and more on practicing, but it's their choice. The really shouldn't make claims if they don't prove.

[Cameron]

The thing is people seem to want to trash talk other practioners without any direct experience. If you do the David Shen Foundation training or do a Max workshop and then feel the need to come here and talk sh%t then atleast your in a position to speak from direct experience.

 

Just talking out of your ass from "vibes" you get from people over the internet isn't valid.

 

Like Sean said, you would probably think differently or behave differenty if you met him or his teacher in person. Same goes for other teachers.

 

Again, if someone who actually did the DS training came and talked about what a negative experience it was then there would be some validity but it just seems people want to tear the guy down because their own belief system doesn't support DS students views.

[Son Goku]

dAMN! Dis topic is kicking mah topic in da lobbyz butt!!!

[voidisyinyang]

Is some one here implying the "suck the jing out of the bull till it dies" story is make-believe? haha. I hope not or else I might question David's abilities. haha.

 

Kind of like when I bought those two "slim jims" today with my EBT card and the Somalian clerk -- a hot female -- started cracking up. Or when the McDonald's check out girls go:

 

"Do you want nuts with that?" about your sundae and start giggling. That's happened to me at two different McDonalds.

 

Anyway maybe some one can give the story from the Bull's perspective since it definitely experienced the powers first-hand.

 

Was the Bull a student of Davids? Or....

[Matt]

Edited December 2, 2008 by Matt