John Changs 1st Westerner student

[Uncle Fester]

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Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[forestofsouls]

Certainly you don't have to develop any powers to be a spiritual person and attain self realization; that doesn't mean that Taoists that do manifest these abilities are any less spiritual or enlightened. There are plenty of Gurus getting caught up in sex and other desires; they lack the will and knowledge to reach any meaningful spiritual attainment without the distraction of 'powers.'

 

Most groups don't put the pursuit of spiritual powers front and center in this way.

 

The truth is, you have to be very clear and have mastered desire to a very high degree to reach the level of any of the masters out there like Jiang or John Chang.

 

The Buddha performed hundreds of so called miracles to instill faith in his students, so did other Buddhas like Milarepa, Padmasambava and many others. These demonstrations of supernatural power inspired people to achieve spiritual results and get beyond material desire, far from creating more obsticles.

 

This is the whole problem with the sean denty presentation. You put forth bold opinions as facts that people should accept without questioning. When asked for specifics, it is too mysterious to explain, or dangerous, or you didn't really mean what you said. How many miracles did you see the Buddha perform? Milarepa? Padmasambava? You should familiarize yourself with the Kalamas Sutta--- the Buddha way isn't about bold statements, it is about personal practice. It isn't about what so and so said, or did, or is claimed to have done, it is about what YOU practice, what YOU see, and what YOU understand. Really, all these statements you make about anyone's internal states, other than your own, are opinions. Statements relating to events you did not witness are opinions.

 

It's too bad that the level of insecurity on this site about such things has to take away from the possiblity of a useful/interesting discussion. These practices are fascinating and show us the possiblities of the human potential and the creative power of the mind to evolve and discover new experiences.

 

I don't understand how spiritual seekers become so sensitive on the internet. To paraphrase the Buddha, if some one states something false, then it shouldn't bother you for it is not true. If some one states something true, then there is something that can be learned from it. I don't see why people are constantly offended by anonymous comments made by complete strangers. If one cannot handle the internet, how will one handle the real obstacles on the spiritual path?

 

I mean, if you are secure in your practice, then why do you need to make immature comments and boast about how great your Swami is or how fucked up the life line on someones's hand is? Wouldn't it be more interesting to just talk like adults and explore the questions that a video like this brings up.

 

You want people to be rather than they are. Causes and conditions. This is like complaining that life is suffering. One can whine and argue about it, but facts are facts.

 

From what I hear, he has reached level three of the Mo Pai system, that's a pretty amazing accomplishment and shows a lot of dedication and years of hard work. Spiritually speaking, according the Mo Pai, he will not be reincarnated unless he chooses to. You wouldn't know it by looking at him, he just looks like a banker on vacation or something, but the guy is an immortal being.

 

Again, from what you hear.

 

It's also intesting that there can be a set of objective goals and experiences to qualify a students progess; as opposed a feeling or perception which can be subjective.

 

There will always be subjectivity. Even if some one were to truly levitate in front of 50 believers and 50 skeptics, the believers would believe and the skeptics would negate. As for objective goals, I advise you Google Stages of Insight or check out Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. Most spiritual traditions have maps of the stages, except for those who believe maps can be traps (i.e. Zen).

[Buddy]

"I don't think Buddy is going to believe anything unless it happens to himself in person. That's fine - but while he may lack the hard proof to say this vid or Jiang is real to him, he also lacks the proof to declare them fake.

 

Why not take an agnostic position if you simply don't know for a fact either way, then? I mean, is there any visible evidence within that video or hand blister pic to imply they were faked? If not, then what is your specific doubt based upon?"

 

 

"Oh I agree. But we are talking about faith here. Buddy's faith, with no proof that the video is fake defies logic and scientific method as much as anyone's faith without proof that the video is real. Faith defies logic quite often. Now is it the faith that is flawed or logic? That may be another thread altogether."

 

 

You can't be serious. How about the total circumvention of natural law? The hand blister is a verification of what? That it was put there by magical power? Come on. In a discourse it is behoovant upon the claimant to offer proof not the skeptic. These tricks can be readily reproduced. Why on earth would ANYONE believe them except wanting to participate in fantasy?

Edited May 6, 2008 by Buddy

[Wun Yuen Gong]

In the dvd Thunder Path -Light of the Dao the master can see inside the person, clearn blockages ect. In ancient times these abilties would have been so needed cause they had no CT scans, x ray machines and masters like that would have been the Immortal to help the people. On top of that herbs, accupuncture, exercises, meditation was given to the sick to rebuild there body. So all these special abilities do have a real purpose back in those days and today its a lost art well dying art.

 

WYG

[Uncle Fester]

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Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[gendao]

Buddy's faith, with no proof that the video is fake defies logic and scientific method as much as anyone's faith without proof that the video is real. Faith defies logic quite often. Now is it the faith that is flawed or logic? That may be another thread altogether.

Very true. Buddy's faith in modern physics exceeds his faith in these Taoist demos.

 

But he actually has no more specific evidence that they are fake vs. real.

 

I'm not sure faith ever really defies logic, though. It's just that our logic only operates off limited parameters and our limited ability to connect them - which results in a limited answer.

 

For example:

You can't be serious. How about the total circumvention of natural law? The hand blister is a verification of what? That it was put there by magical power? Come on. In a discourse it is behoovant upon the claimant to offer proof not the skeptic. These tricks can be readily reproduced. Why on earth would ANYONE believe them except wanting to participate in fantasy?

Is there a natural law that says energy or heat cannot be projected from a distance by a human?

 

And sure, it COULD be faked...but again, there is no smoking gun here to prove that, either.

 

But, I like your moxy. Maybe we should hold a TB contest here to perform some feat on him that can

? Edited May 6, 2008 by vortex

[Matt]

Edited December 2, 2008 by Matt

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Matt]

Edited December 2, 2008 by Matt

[Buddy]

Bring it on. You "believers" don't have a prayer. One can't prove a negative. It's up to the claimant to prove the veracity of their claim. If I show a video of someone doing this and admitting it's a trick, what would that prove. Does anyone here doubt gravity? inertia? thermodynamics? Please spare me your "faith" in the impossible. I don't need faith to tell me gravity exists. It exists a priori to my belief in it.

[mantis]

Yeah. isn't there someone here who can give orgasms with their eyes or something like that? Lets get Buddy a tube sock and a webcam and put it to the test!

 

LOL

[gendao]

Bring it on. You "believers" don't have a prayer. One can't prove a negative. It's up to the claimant to prove the veracity of their claim. If I show a video of someone doing this and admitting it's a trick, what would that prove. Does anyone here doubt gravity? inertia? thermodynamics? Please spare me your "faith" in the impossible. I don't need faith to tell me gravity exists. It exists a priori to my belief in it.

Fair enough. The gauntlet has been thrown.

 

Less talk, more action.

 

What I envision is some of us calling you up and giving an accurate psychic reading, healing, etc...or yes, maybe Drew Hempel could give you an O at a D, lol. Something convincing to and verifiable to YOU.

 

Time to put up or shut up, folks. This is where the rubber meets the road. So, who's up for the fun challenge?

Edited May 6, 2008 by vortex

[Buddy]

Nice. I've just written down a random 8 figure number. Ant takers?

[Jedi777]

Right, like people are just lining up to study Lei Shan Dao Certainly you don't have to develop any powers to be a spiritual person and attain self realization; that doesn't mean that Taoists that do manifest these abilities are any less spiritual or enlightened. There are plenty of Gurus getting caught up in sex and other desires; they lack the will and knowledge to reach any meaningful spiritual attainment without the distraction of 'powers.'

 

The truth is, you have to be very clear and have mastered desire to a very high degree to reach the level of any of the masters out there like Jiang or John Chang.

 

The Buddha performed hundreds of so called miracles to instill faith in his students, so did other Buddhas like Milarepa, Padmasambava and many others. These demonstrations of supernatural power inspired people to achieve spiritual results and get beyond material desire, far from creating more obsticles.

 

It's too bad that the level of insecurity on this site about such things has to take away from the possiblity of a useful/interesting discussion. These practices are fascinating and show us the possiblities of the human potential and the creative power of the mind to evolve and discover new experiences.

 

I mean, if you are secure in your practice, then why do you need to make immature comments and boast about how great your Swami is or how fucked up the life line on someones's hand is? Wouldn't it be more interesting to just talk like adults and explore the questions that a video like this brings up.

 

I think we can all agree that something like this is of scientific value and interest if nothing else. It also presents an interesting aspect of Taoist culture and practice that can be explored as a path to spiritual cultivation. I'd say those are some of the things that should be welcomed on a Taoist discession board with out the usual trashing.

 

Jim, the guy in the video, from what I hear is a pretty cool guy. He studied with Sifu Chang for about 10-15 years before reaching this level. His training included hours of daily meditation. From what I hear, he has reached level three of the Mo Pai system, that's a pretty amazing accomplishment and shows a lot of dedication and years of hard work. Spiritually speaking, according the Mo Pai, he will not be reincarnated unless he chooses to. You wouldn't know it by looking at him, he just looks like a banker on vacation or something, but the guy is an immortal being.

 

The fact that it can be that simple, without robes and fancy practices, without pretence and mumbo jumbo interests me. I'm not saying that there can't be more to the spiritual experience, but it's nice to know that it doesn't take a fancy spiritual name like 'Child of Immortal Wind' or 'Swami of great wisdomness' to get liberated. It's also intesting that there can be a set of objective goals and experiences to qualify a students progess; as opposed a feeling or perception which can be subjective.

WELL SAID seandenty SOME PEOPLE just dont want to see

[Uncle Fester]

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Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[Jedi777]

ignore buddy his kung fu is weak

[Neikung]

Bring it on. You "believers" don't have a prayer. One can't prove a negative. It's up to the claimant to prove the veracity of their claim. If I show a video of someone doing this and admitting it's a trick, what would that prove. Does anyone here doubt gravity? inertia? thermodynamics? Please spare me your "faith" in the impossible. I don't need faith to tell me gravity exists. It exists a priori to my belief in it.

 

Until recently, many physicists thought that they have solved the "big" questions in physics and that there are only a few forces like gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak forces. Do you know what you call "natural laws" in your previous post only cover 4% of the universe? 96% of the universe are dark energy and dark matter. Here for example is an interview with a prominent physicist regarding his discovery of dark matter/energy and his total lack of understanding of what they are: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=discov...a-dark-universe. There are many books written about dark matter/energy but no one has any clue to what their characteristics are (hence the name "dark"). My point is even physicists can't say that everything has to obey the known "natural law" as they don't even know what govern 96% of our universe! How would you know that qi may not relate to dark energy? (I don't know the answer of course but neither do you or anyone else).

[gendao]

Nice. I've just written down a random 8 figure number. Ant takers?

Ok, I'll take a shot in the dark - 11310287

[shidoin]

[Buddy]

"ignore buddy his kung fu is weak"

 

I'd be happy to prove you wrong.

 

"Do you know what you call "natural laws" in your previous post only cover 4% of the universe? 96% of the universe are dark energy and dark matter."

 

Yes, of course I've heard this view. Of course "dark energy" and "dark matter" are theories and gravity is a law. Not to discount them though, they make sense to me. However it has no application to the subject. There is no point in continuing "what if" arguments. Let's stick to what is not what might be.

 

Buddy

Yizong Baguazhang

[shidoin]

"Jim, the guy in the video, from what I hear is a pretty cool guy. He studied with Sifu Chang for about 10-15 years before reaching this level. "

 

10 or 15? It's a 33 percent difference. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say 15. For what? To allegedly be able to move empty cardboard boxes. Talk about a waste of time...

 

Well it would be faster to just walk over and knock them down but from What I understand These things are just a biproduct of the training. If chang can burn people from a distance with his will that would be safer than a fight. I could drop you like a hot rock with my skill and strength, but if I could do it with the mind!!! Guess what method I would go with?

[voidisyinyang]

Hey Buddy I just did something really DANGEROUS. I googled "mayo clinic and chunyi lin"

 

Bleed on brain stem completely healed

 

Sue Sivula of Maple Grove, Minnesota, had a bleed on the brain stem, which among other things, caused her eyes not to turn when she turned her head.

 

The neurosurgeon at the Hospital and the renowned Mayo Clinic in Rochester, wanted to operate, but not Sue.

 

After two visits with Master Chunyi Lin, the problem was completely gone. The neurosurgeon compared the before MRI with the after MRI and could only see a tiny residue.

 

Sue practices Qigong on most days for two thirty-minute sessions. "The ongoing benefits I receive far exceed any effort I must do in practicing Qigong," she says.

 

Sue Sivula

 

Dr. Neil Kay, Mayo Clinic cancer researcher ALSO recommends qigong master Chunyi Lin.

 

Mayo Cinic oncologist Dr. Nina Mishek just co-authored a qigong chapter with Chunyi Lin for a Mayo Clinic medical textbook.

 

http://springforestqigong.com

 

Looks like you got all the proof you need Buddy! The Mayo Cinic is the TOP medical hospital in the world.

[Buddy]

"I could drop you like a hot rock with my skill and strength, but if I could do it with the mind!!! Guess what method I would go with?"

 

If? If cows could fly...

 

 

"Looks like you got all the proof you need Buddy! The Mayo Cinic is the TOP medical hospital in the world."

 

drew, This is apocryphal not proof. Has it been ruled out that anything else could have contributed to this? Not to discount it, I'm a skeptic, but one with an open mind. I know first hand of the power of one's own mind to heal. But I remain skeptical of others influence on same.

[Smile]

Wow... The stuff people say.

I've met SeanD in person and he is a very nice and good hearted human being. He truly believes in his path and he is very passionate to defend it if he feels it's unfairly portrayed. That being said, I agree with Buddy. One shouldn't believe (be-lie-ve) blindly in this type of displays. After all, in the past how many of them ended up being fake or grossly exaggerated? Most? I don't say LSD videos are fake (or real)- it's just they shouldn't be out in a first place because of the confusion they create. LSD is not about that to begin with, so why bother?

 

I would say the same about Kunlun demonstrations.

[松永道]

If you have proof, you have nothing to prove.

 

If there is an absolute reality, we, limited things, can't know it. So we have subjective reality, formed by personal experience, ordered by logic. Necessarily everyone's a little different. Some people are very different. The difference is in experience.

 

Skepticism is honest.

 

Belief cheats the believer.