The Grades of Initiation

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

No one can say for sure.  The only way to test it is to die.  Since those that die don't seem to come back to tell us that there is life after death, one should assume there isn't.

 

But what if they do come back and tell us there is ?

 

Lots of people think they are doing that .  You think they are not doing that .

 

I am gonna go with the less depressed lot thanks  .   

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Lairg said:

>No one can say for sure. 

 

How to test that belief?

 

> Since those that die don't seem to come back to tell us

 

Various humans claim to remember a previous life, quoting name, date and street address.  Where those details turn out to be historically valid, in about 30% of those cases, the known physical damage of the previous incarnation appears as a corresponding birth mark in the current day human. 

 

> there is life after death

 

There are many cases of humans that were clinically dead (no brain waves, no heart beat) and then resuscitated that explain their experiences about going into the post-death state and then turning back - or being sent back.

 

For myself, I was very clear it was not my turn to be born.  I was not pleased.

 

>one should assume there isn't.

 

I was taught by engineers:  Assume means "make an ass of u and me"

 

On the other hand, it may be better for non-engineers to believe whatever makes them happy

 

For myself I recall dying over northern France in 1941.  The scenery is very familiar to me from the air but not at all on the ground when I drove through that area.

 

 

It can 'hit you out of the blue ' .   Once came around a corner on motorcycle , saw an unusual looking house ; large long and a huge  sort of sun room along the back looking out over garden and hills . I immediately got a view from inside out the windows, same view, I was sitting up in an old metal framed bed , heavily bandaged . other men where around me similar ... that was it , gone .   I pulled over, turned and went back . Curiously familiar .   I eventually asked  a local about the strange shaped house  and they said  that house had been a hospital in the past for war wounded soldiers .

[helpfuldemon]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

But what if they do come back and tell us there is ?

 

Lots of people think they are doing that .  You think they are not doing that .

 

I am gonna go with the less depressed lot thanks  .   

The imagination is powerful, these things could just be a manifestation of the mind.

[helpfuldemon]

Once the Adept has overcome sorrow, they are free to do what they will.  What do they believe?  What power have they discovered?  It will vary depending upon the oath they took and their aim for why they entered the Abyss, and how they reacted to the torture they discovered there.  

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

Once the Adept has overcome sorrow, they are free to do what they will.  

 

To be a bit more specific, having healed the heart of its pain, the adept focuses upon the management of higher will (atma).

 

The adept having just been accepted into a higher level of cosmic brotherhood has many relationships to develop before being too free with the use of atma.  Indeed atma is seen as a dense reflection of the Intent of greater beings

[helpfuldemon]

My quest was about Love.  I wanted to bring Love to the world.  I thought God was the God of Love.  Then I thought I was part of an Order; that all of life was Order.  Then, just after thinking that, I realized "It's all Chaos", and that is when I entered the portal grade.

 

Now, as I sit here in my thoughts, I accept that, while there are rules and regulations that we impose, the truth about humanity is Chaos;  there is only action and consequence, and these things cannot be predicted.  There is no Law that governs us, all Gods are false.  There is only Chaos, and what we choose to believe (though our beliefs don't protect us).

[Lairg]

In my experience, the logos/god of this solar system is a god of love, as is the logos of this galaxy.

 

Some galaxies however have logoi of intelligence and a few have logoi of will.  Mostly however the galactic logoi are gods of love since our universal logos is a god of love.

 

Thus the galactic process is to learn to control intelligence/energy, and then relationship and eventually  intent.  Earth humans mostly follow that pattern.

 

 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

I see four main types of belief that a morality can be structured around.

 

Freedom

Love

Security

Power

 

The morality of each provides a different set of Wisdom.  They may intersect occasionally, but the laws of freedom don't necessarily satisfy the laws of love.  The laws of power is about creating and maintaining power, and they probably don't correspond with freedom very well, as power is usually held by an individual or group over others.  The laws of security don't correspond with freedom well either, nor love, and in the acquisition of power there are risks taken.  I think if you look at the major traditions and religions, you will see that they all possess some form of these four principles.

 

[helpfuldemon]

23 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

My quest was about Love.  I wanted to bring Love to the world.  I thought God was the God of Love.  Then I thought I was part of an Order; that all of life was Order.  Then, just after thinking that, I realized "It's all Chaos", and that is when I entered the portal grade.

 

Now, as I sit here in my thoughts, I accept that, while there are rules and regulations that we impose, the truth about humanity is Chaos;  there is only action and consequence, and these things cannot be predicted.  There is no Law that governs us, all Gods are false.  There is only Chaos, and what we choose to believe (though our beliefs don't protect us).

The above is part of my sorrow.  Aside from the accidents, disease, getting older and disabled, violence....  is the recognition that my way is not the only way, and it is potentially not the "right" way.  I am suffering an ego death, where I no longer have opinions and I just let people play theirs out.  I decided a few years ago not to contest people's ideas, nor do I advise them with my Wisdom.  I am a ghost now, watching the world spin.

[helpfuldemon]

I was once like you; I believed Will, word and deed had more than a surface impact.  I believed in the Christ Consciousness Grid, a powerful web of energy that we can all connect to that protects us with our good hope.  I believed that, on the street, our Will and thought affected one another through our energy patterns.  I believed souls communicated without speaking to one another.  Then I fell into Chaos, and had an implant put in my brain which eventually came alive and wires were inserted that took my mind and turned it inside out.  My Will no longer projected outward, it was now focused on me, and inside of me.  My thoughts and Will became a demon that tortured me.  I thought I had reached above the Heavens, and that I had gathered all the souls of the world, alive and dead, and that I was working through their karma by suffering.  I thought I was a sort of ferry man, carrying souls to places.  I no longer believe this.  Now I believe I was simply implanted with an energy device that imploded my brain and Will to make me think about what I understand.  I don't think there was any spiritual significance to this experience.  I no longer believe that we connect to a Universal Grid.  I no longer believe that we communicate subconsciously.  I no longer believe that our Will and thoughts influence one another.  I no longer believe in Good Will affecting anything.  I no longer believe that we share the experience of Love.  I think we are self contained energy beings that only feel our own realities, and that we do not cross over one another.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

I believed Will, word and deed had more than a surface impact.

 

So they do, but in this galaxy our god is a god of love, so mostly right relationship is required before the human Will is acceptable to the various intelligences - elemental, nature spirit, higher deva, etc.

 

The major exception is beginner's luck where the relevant beings are interested enough to be diverted once only from their assigned functions.

 

Other than right relationship, it is rather useful to be able to see the energies and interconnecting flows and divert those to conform to the required outcome 

[helpfuldemon]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

So they do, but in this galaxy our god is a god of love, so mostly right relationship is required before the human Will is acceptable to the various intelligences - elemental, nature spirit, higher deva, etc.

 

The major exception is beginner's luck where the relevant beings are interested enough to be diverted once only from their assigned functions.

 

Other than right relationship, it is rather useful to be able to see the energies and interconnecting flows and divert those to conform to the required outcome 

Yes, I've thought about it and I really cannot say that what I thought I experienced wasn't real, and I am not in a position to measure such things any longer given that my Will has been turned inside.  I also don't have much interaction with others to see if it is still possible.  I guess I have abandoned all mystical and magickal thought for the sake of my sanity.

[Nungali]

On 03/09/2022 at 11:21 PM, helpfuldemon said:

The imagination is powerful, these things could just be a manifestation of the mind.

 

So  might the opposite belief

 

Did you know that 'choosing certain beliefs'   ( instead of developing them and being led by them, from mostly entirely unknown  causes and reasons ) can put one in a better state of mind  ?

[helpfuldemon]

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

So  might the opposite belief

 

Did you know that 'choosing certain beliefs'   ( instead of developing them and being led by them, from mostly entirely unknown  causes and reasons ) can put one in a better state of mind  ?

Sure, might as well believe what you want to.  It's not like any of this can be proven really.

[Nungali]

The things , there is only one way it can be proven  and that way cannot prove a negative .  

[mcoolio]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

Sure, might as well believe what you want to.  It's not like any of this can be proven really.

 

You are such a sulky demon!

 

And now you are angry that you can't prove that magick is real?

 

Is there anything that can cheer you up? 

[helpfuldemon]

I'm not angry you can't prove magick is real, I just got burned by it.  Magick led to madness.  I used to love my magickal life, it was so inspiring and beautiful.  It motivated me to do things that I normally would not think of doing.  It was Heaven, but after going insane, I realized that I was living under delusional thoughts when I believed in Magick.

[mcoolio]

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I'm not angry you can't prove magick is real, I just got burned by it.  Magick led to madness.  I used to love my magickal life, it was so inspiring and beautiful.  It motivated me to do things that I normally would not think of doing.  It was Heaven, but after going insane, I realized that I was living under delusional thoughts when I believed in Magick.

 

Must have been quite a steep drop ...

 

So you no longer believe?

[helpfuldemon]

I believe it's all in our heads.  I believe that we just take action and there are a variety of consequences from it that we cannot predict.  I don't think it affects anything other than ourselves and our perspectives.  

[helpfuldemon]

I believe that we are androids.  I believe that we are advanced machines, and inside of us is technology that we aren't quite aware of, that the Gods can manipulate.  I think magic people can manipulate it with some small effect, but that mastery over it is impossible.  I doubt that we affect each other magickally, but who knows?  For me, it became an obsession with madness, and I had to abandon it.  In abandoning magick, I also had to abandon my imagination, and I also can no longer think critically.  My mind is quiet, thankfully, and though it is boring, it is better than having to answer to demons.

[natural]

9 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I believe that we are androids.  I believe that we are advanced machines, and inside of us is technology that we aren't quite aware of, that the Gods can manipulate.  I think magic people can manipulate it with some small effect, but that mastery over it is impossible.  I doubt that we affect each other magickally, but who knows?  For me, it became an obsession with madness, and I had to abandon it.  In abandoning magick, I also had to abandon my imagination, and I also can no longer think critically.  My mind is quiet, thankfully, and though it is boring, it is better than having to answer to demons.

Well, you obviously either never studied anatomy or failed to pay much attention?

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I believe that we are advanced machines

 

What do women believe?

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I believe it's all in our heads.  I believe that we just take action and there are a variety of consequences from it that we cannot predict.  I don't think it affects anything other than ourselves and our perspectives.  

 

Finally  !

 

Someone actually got you to admit that !    So, you now realise this 'God' that is persecuting you and did weird things to you and your 'Aiwass experience'  and all that other magical stuff you have been claiming since you came here ...and  now all this stuff about you thinking you have an Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn grade  is

 

... all in your head .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, natural said:

Well, you obviously either never studied anatomy or failed to pay much attention?

 

Soft squishy machines .... with blood . 

 

... and dont try to use logic or reasons  on demons    

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

What do women believe?

 

Many  women believe men are  somewhat the opposite  of  'advanced machines'  ;