The Grades of Initiation

[helpfuldemon]

Why am I a Thelemite? Because I believe in Free Will, and I believe that all things have part to play in the drama of this devouring Universe.

God is all of us, and therefor God is both Good, and Evil.

I believe that Christianity is the greatest Good of Wisdom, but we are all human and often there have been failures to represent it. Should you be truly Christian, you would be considered wise and Good.

Thelema honors all paths, and accepts that sometimes Evil is necessary, or accidentally indulged in, and I believe this is the Law of our reality, and I think Christ saw that too, which is why He preached forgiveness.

Ultimately this world is chaotic, for how could it not be? There are so many beliefs, and we are not all on the same footing.

I mourn for this place, for I once saw all of this as a thing of beauty, but now I see the suffering it causes us.

[helpfuldemon]

Mankind invents God. But how do we do so? We look to ourselves, and to the world. An accurate portrayal of God is who we are and what we do, and the environment of Nature, and what it does. We are God to one another, and how we act shows what we understand about God.

[helpfuldemon]

We live in an imperfect world. We suffer disease, accidents, natural disasters, war, poverty, and ignorance. We are told to learn about ourselves, discover our Will and find our way. We ignore what is ugly to us and praise what is beautiful, forgetting many along the way. We do not regard this place as a world family. Our Father indeed! We are prone to weakness of body and spirit.

And so the Jews devised a way to explain. This is a fallen world, one where Sin entered and we became vulnerable. Then we have Jesus, who knows of our ignorance and defends us against Gods wrath. We still have to contend with this world though, and this world is going to Satan (at least in the West).

[helpfuldemon]

After having climbed through the grades as far as I can see, I find myself at a certain peace with the world.  I still fear the pain of dying, and I worry about our world and the events of nature that debilitate us.  I fear accidents and sickness just the same as anyone.  I am not a Master of Magick, for I have abandoned that line of thinking.  I have little Will towards anything, and I see little reason to do much.  

[helpfuldemon]

The Christian Bible came about because the ancient philosophers, mainly Aristotle, narrowed God down to the "Unmoved Mover". He declared that there is no greater power than the One God. The philosophers and Jews at the time worked to create a religious text that could comprehend this God. Prior to the One God of Aristotle, there were many Gods, and they all had different aspects and motives. The Jews believed that God was Good, and so they wondered how there is Evil in the world. That is when they declared there to be a rival to God. They said that before the fall of mankind, there was no Evil in the world, but that we were tempted to eat from the proverbial tree of Good and Evil, in other words, we started to think and become aware. Then Sin entered the world and we fell. The Jews didnt like Sin or Evil, so they demonized lust and desire, something that entered our awareness thanks to the Serpent, which probably dates back to an older Serpent religion. The Jews were waiting for a messiah to aid them in their governing of their culture and save them from their warfaring neighbors. But the Christian thinkers took this one step further and decided that the messiah would remove Sin from the Earth altogether, and so they have the perfect man Jesus, who was Divine and without Sin. The Jews sacrificed to their God, and so Jesus, who was the perfect person, was sacrificed to the God to remove Sin from the world. However, as we can all see, Sin and lust and desire are still here, but the hope is that if you follow the Christian teachings, you will live a life without Sin and lust and desire, and be Good. Jesus also took on the aspect of savior and forgiver, and the Christians look to him for salvation.

Thelema is a religion that tries to handle the Serpent and desire more accurately than to deny it. Their God is Chaos, for it is chaos that is caused by desire and the unrestrained emotions of love.

For myself, I think we are denying who we are, and who God is. I think that the true God is like us, with all of our aspects, and is both Good and Evil. For what Good God would allow such suffering? Suffering is part of our biological condition. It is part of our environment and its natural disasters. We should not invent stories to protect God from the awareness that God created this space, and these are parts of our journey. We should also not deny our desires for the sake of a calm life. They are natural and necessary for the enjoyment of life.

I say this even though I am a man of little desire. But in my youth, I did pursue my dreams, and I was happy. I grieve over the distress that desire causes, but I also grieve over the absence of it.

If not for my illness, I am at peace. I never wanted to be a man of peace, but it is all that I have now.

[Nungali]

Dont tell us Thelemites that our God is Chaos .... you do not have a clue about it !

 

Our  Deity is Goddess Nuit and Nuit  is the epitome of   love,  desire and the unrestrained emotions of love.

 

 

"

• Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!
• I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.

• For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.
• This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all.

The word of Sin is Restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse.

 

I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice.

 

• But to love me is better than all things: if under the night stars in the desert thou presently burnest mine incense before me, invoking me with a pure heart, and the Serpent flame therein, thou shalt come a little to lie in my bosom. For one kiss wilt thou then be willing to give all; but whoso gives one particle of dust shall lose all in that hour. Ye shall gather goods and store of women and spices; ye shall wear rich jewels; ye shall exceed the nations of the earth in spendour & pride; but always in the love of me, and so shall ye come to my joy. I charge you earnestly to come before me in a single robe, and covered with a rich headdress. I love you! I yearn to you! Pale or purple, veiled or voluptuous, I who am all pleasure and purple, and drunkenness of the innermost sense, desire you. Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me!
• At all my meetings with you shall the priestess say—and her eyes shall burn with desire as she stands bare and rejoicing in my secret temple—To me! To me! calling forth the flame of the hearts of all in her love-chant.
• Sing the rapturous love-song unto me! Burn to me perfumes! Wear to me jewels! Drink to me, for I love you! I love you!  "

[helpfuldemon]

For Crowley, God was Chaos.  I guess he created a religion that isn't in line with his personal beliefs?

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

For Crowley, God was Chaos.  I guess he created a religion that isn't in line with his personal beliefs?

 

Thats possibly true .  

 

"

• O prophet! thou hast ill will to learn this writing.
• I see thee hate the hand & the pen; but I am stronger.
• Because of me in Thee which thou knewest not.

[helpfuldemon]

Wow!  That is the first time you (sorta) agreed with me!

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

Hi helpfuldemon.

Yes people start religions that they were opposed to before, i did have a very interesting conversation with a Knights Templar some time back, Obviously they only aspire to be one, as it is only the Pope who could bring them back.

Thee are several pages below, who i was talking to was KSigMason and my avatar was Astronomer62, and involves

the Johannite Christian which is an esoteric and Gnostic Christian church. that did have connections to The Temple of Set, you can read about it below if you wish:-

 

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1224110/pg4

[Nungali]

Hang on a minute there   ..... a Christian sect that has connections to the Temple of Set   ! ???  

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

Hi Nungali,

James Foster Was the founder of the modern Johannite Church:-

https://sites.google.com/site/gnostickos/bishopsfoster

Also there are links regarding The Apostolic Johannite church by the All Saints Accord with the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, please read link under "Signatories" on link below:-

https://www.johannite.org/all-saints-accord/

The closeness of the two branches of churches can be found when reading below regarding Pedophilia and convicted prisoner Bishop Reginald freeman:-

https://johannite.org/response.pdf

It may help the forum debate if we look at core beliefs of the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica.
We need to scroll down to The Gnostic Creed on link below:-

Gnostic Creed

The creed of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica—also known as the Gnostic Creed—is recited in the Gnostic Mass, during the Ceremony of the Introit.

The text of the Creed is as follows:

I believe in one secret and ineffable LORD; and in one Star in the Company of Stars of whose fire we are created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life, Mystery of Mystery, in His name CHAOS, the sole vicegerent of the Sun upon the Earth; and in one Air the nourisher of all that breathes.
And I believe in one Earth, the Mother of us all, and in one Womb wherein all men are begotten, and wherein they shall rest, Mystery of Mystery, in Her name BABALON.
And I believe in the Serpent and the Lion, Mystery of Mystery, in His name BAPHOMET.
And I believe in one Gnostic and Catholic Church of Light, Life, Love and Liberty, the Word of whose Law is THELEMA.
And I believe in the communion of Saints.
And, forasmuch as meat and drink are transmuted in us daily into spiritual substance, I believe in the Miracle of the Mass.
And I confess one Baptism of Wisdom whereby we accomplish the Miracle of Incarnation.
And I confess my life one, individual, and eternal that was, and is, and is to come.
AUMGN. AUMGN. AUMGN.^{[This quote needs a citation]}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_Gnostica_Catholica

I can't remember the amount of threads on other forums, where known Knights Templars have denied worshipping Baphomet, and they were accused of worshipping Baphomet centuries ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet

I have no problem with seeking grades of initiation, but you have to be careful what you join.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Archaeoastronomer (Archi)

[Nungali]

You also have to be careful not to make a giant blunder  ....

 

like confusing  EGC with EGCH .   Which made your whole post above , rather libelous ;

 

 

EGC

 

EGCH

Edited January 21, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Regarding the pedophilia ..... you suggest a cover up and link to info which shows the organization ( which you are attacking )   claims they immediately suspended the member  when the information came up and before he was judged guilty or innocent , and suspended his ministries . When it was decided by law that he was guilty , they say he was immediately expelled .

Look Archie , why not pick on the catholic church, they behaved MUCH worse than this !

 

Also by confounding all of this with EGC  you have opened a can of worms . EGC suffers the same attacks ... and meets them ! 

 

Beware .  They have money and a huge team of lawyers .  A case in Australia a few years back, where some group accused them here if satanism and pedophilia was taken to court . They got a huge payment for it , the offender ended up loosing their land - had to sell  it to raise money for their payments of 'damage ' .

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

Hi Nungali,

I have only written so far, about The Johannite Church, James Foster, Temple of Set and the Catholic Gnostic creed as mentioned below, with esoteric groups so i haven't confused anything:-

https://hermetic.com/egc/creed

James foster used to run the Temple of Set forum, so must have been a fairly high up adept, pictures below:-

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

Michael Aquino was the founder of the Temple of Set, who i don't like, his name is linked to many paedophilia groups, however he was slippery and never was convicted:-

https://www.encyclopedia.com/arts/educational-magazines/aquino-michael-1946

He was involved in MkUtra, so deals with disinformation, however he made a mistake with trying to sue the US army to get his name off a Paedophilia case where the children caught VD, the Army wouldn't take his name off the report as they strongly suspected him, although couldn't convict him.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/957/139/2044/

The Johannite Church does have a Retreat called the Friary, all i'm saying is be careful where you go for enlightenment.

https://ordosacraeflammae.org/faq/

[Nungali]

No that is not all of what you are saying ;

 

you clearly said 

 

" 

Also there are links regarding The Apostolic Johannite church by the All Saints Accord with the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, please read link under "Signatories" on link below:-

https://www.johannite.org/all-saints-accord/

 

It is not signed by EGC but by EGCH  you have made a mistake .  EGC is not a signatory on this accord . 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Archaeoastronomer (Archi) said:

Hi Nungali,

I have only written so far, about The Johannite Church, James Foster, Temple of Set and the Catholic Gnostic creed as mentioned below,

 

AND that all saints accord citing EGC .

 

 

7 hours ago, Archaeoastronomer (Archi) said:

 

 

with esoteric groups so i haven't confused anything:-

 

 

You confused the above ... again . or did you now omit that on purpose ?

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

Hi Nungali.

I was citing the common bond With the Catholic Ecclesia Gnostica and the GnosticJohannite Church that both signed, nothing more or less.

Signatories

Bishop +Anthony Angelo
Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica Hermetica

Bishop Dr. +William Behun
Apostolic Johannite Church

I'm far more interested in the most reverent James Foster who founded the Johannite church, and was a high up adept of the Temple of Set, which is hardly a recommendation for the Johannite Church, considering the history of his boss in the Temple of Set, Michael Aquino, who i had kept tabs on for years before his death.

I'm sure there are better "Churches" to join for grades of initiation, my comments are to be careful of joining the wrong groups.

 

 

[Nungali]

Oh my GOD ! Its right there in black and white !

 

and you have done it again !

 

5 hours ago, Archaeoastronomer (Archi) said:

Hi Nungali.

I was citing the common bond With the Catholic Ecclesia Gnostica and the GnosticJohannite Church that both signed, nothing more or less.

 

 

There is no bond signed by Catholic Ecclesia Gnostica

 

 

5 hours ago, Archaeoastronomer (Archi) said:

Signatories

Bishop +Anthony Angelo
Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica Hermetica

 

 

It is signed by these guys

 

Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica Hermetica

 

Which are a different group . I already told you and showed you their lamens , which are different , and on is Christian and the other certainly not .

 

Not only have you clearly made a mistake , now you refuse to acknowledge it .... while repeating it !

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Archaeoastronomer (Archi) said:

 

 

 

 

Bishop Dr. +William Behun
Apostolic Johannite Church

I'm far more interested in the most reverent James Foster who founded the Johannite church, and was a high up adept of the Temple of Set, which is hardly a recommendation for the Johannite Church, considering the history of his boss in the Temple of Set, Michael Aquino, who i had kept tabs on for years before his death.

I'm sure there are better "Churches" to join for grades of initiation, my comments are to be careful of joining the wrong groups.

 

 

 

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

Hi Nungali,

I never said these were the same group, i said there was a special bond between the two, you have failed to read the initial report from the Johannes church under alleged cover up of of pedophilia,

I feel the Patriarch Shaun McCann of the Johannes Church acted in the right manner in distancing himself from Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, however there was a "special bond" that James Foster set up between the two called Ecclesia Johannes III in 2002..

Unfortunately The present Patriarch of the Johannite Church was consecrated by the convicted bishop Reginald Freeman.

What Shaun McCann has failed to do, is Reconstitute a New Johannes Church bringing in a new founder, and striking off James Foster, whose old boss was heavily suspected of child crimes in numerous circumstances.

There were numerous times where at summer mystery schools the two groups mixed that included families, so Shaun McCann acted quickly..

Until the Johannes church pick a new founder they will get controversy.

https://www.johannite.org/response-to-attacks-on-the-apostolic-johannite-church/

Edited January 24, 2023 by Archaeoastronomer (Archi)
spelling

[Archaeoastronomer (Archi)]

As far as the abbreviation, between EGC and and EGCH i took this to mean connected groups shown below:-

https://www.allacronyms.com/ecclesia_gnostica_catholica_hermetica/abbreviated

If wrong i'm sorry, however, it seems that because of the controvesy the EGCH doesn't exist any more.

It is only the ECG that mention Baphomet in Gnostic Creed.

 

[Nungali]

I see you have now realized that   an extra letter in  an  acronym is there for a reason  .

 

Good , now we can move on .

 

What  is your problem or issue with the EGC  using the symbol of Baphomet ?

 

And please dont give me the  'I saw a youtube on it ' or the shallow  'Oooooo its the Devil ! ' or other such  silly interpretation.

 

I am expecting , at least, some type of intellectual debate here .  

[helpfuldemon]

One should not look too deeply into life, for all we do is consume and suffer.

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie