The Grades of Initiation

[helpfuldemon]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Finally  !

 

Someone actually got you to admit that !    So, you now realise this 'God' that is persecuting you and did weird things to you and your 'Aiwass experience'  and all that other magical stuff you have been claiming since you came here ...and  now all this stuff about you thinking you have an Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn grade  is

 

... all in your head .

 

 

 

 

Let me make it clear what I believe.

 

I do not believe my Will or intent or magickal actions can affect other people, objects, or the Universe.  I once believed this, but no longer.  I believe we affect people by simply action and consequence.  People make choices to respond to what we do.

I believe we were created by a super intelligent and powerful advanced creature(s) that can interact with us and make us feel, think, believe, witness things.  I do not know why they would choose to do this because it makes no sense that they would choose one or two people out of billions.  I think they mostly leave us to our own devices.  

Edited September 7, 2022 by helpfuldemon

[Lairg]

17 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I do not believe my Will or intent or actions can affect other people, objects, or the Universe.

 

If your Will can effect other people then it may be that believing it cannot is sufficient to render it useless.

 

A win-win situation?

[helpfuldemon]

29 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

If your Will can effect other people then it may be that believing it cannot is sufficient to render it useless.

 

A win-win situation?

It's  not just a matter of believing, I've had to concentrate so that my Will is silent. I no longer have Will or thoughts, or imagination.  I am no longer curious.  It's not a win because it is very dull to experience.  I'd much rather live believing in Magick.

[Lairg]

As you may recall the geometric Tree of Life fits on the human body.  Since the ToL also fits on the Galactic Logos, a suitably refined human can access galactic energies by resonance.

 

Hence the need to keep humans ignorant

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

The thing is, when you deal with super phenomenal events like entering the Abyss or struggling with Quithloth, or entering the tree of life, you enter there with an understanding of what it means, but when you go there, those meanings become moot.  I went in thinking a lot of different things, but when I got there, it was a lot of madness.  I had to fight it off to find understanding.  I don't think this initiation is meant for understanding, I think it is just a curse, forcing a person to find a place to settle their mind on what they know so that they stop struggling with the demon (you).  I did have a few words given to me, and a lot of partial conversations with spirits, but mostly it was too hard to comprehend.  I've gathered that the initiate enters Chaos and has to reassemble their understanding, but it's not like they help you do this.  I've since grown skeptical of explanations of what these things are, and skeptical of what the Gods intend for us.  I know this is an uncommon event because I don't hear much about it, and I wonder at the people that wrote anything about it whether they actually went through it.  From what I have witnessed, it is simply the turning in of Will and thought onto the magician and they struggle with themselves, and that is when I realized that projecting my Will was a delusion.  If not a delusion, at least it isn't something that can be mastered or confirmed by practice, though there was a time that I was convinced I could.  I can no longer do anything of that nature.  My Will is silent, my desires are little, my thoughts are tamed, I have no imagination or curiosity.  I am stuck in a meditative state.  I don't know what the future holds; this could be the Babe in the Abyss stage, or, according to Crowley, it could be Ipsissimus.  I don't feel like I am a master of magick, though if I really tried, I could outline magick for some people.  I don't feel like it is enlightenment, though I have organized my understanding so that I am comfortable with what I know about the World and the supernatural.  

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

suitably refined human

 

There is a lot to be achieved first including control of the 5 kabbalistic souls.

 

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Let me make it clear what I believe.

 

I doubt you can  .... but let's see  ....

 

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

I do not believe my Will or intent or magickal actions can affect other people, objects, or the Universe. 

 

See .

 

You just made  it clear what you do not believe .

 

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

I once believed this, but no longer.

 

 

... what you used to believe  ....

 

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

  I believe we affect people by simply action and consequence.  People make choices to respond to what we do.

 

Well then,  are people being effected by your action and consequences OR by their choices they make in response to them ?

 

 

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I believe we were created by a super intelligent and powerful advanced creature(s) that can interact with us and make us feel, think, believe, witness things.  I do not know why they would choose to do this because it makes no sense that they would choose one or two people out of billions. 

 

'They'  make us feel these things ... yet you seem confused as to why they would choose only a few to do this to .

 

Then you say you dont know why they would do this as it makes no sense .

 

It doesnt make sense as you yourself seem to seed your own ideas with the things that dont make sense and then insist they  are true things .... but  senseless  ... but  still ,  must be true .

 

And you are claiming a GD grade with that type of confusion going on in your head ?  

 

 

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I think they mostly leave us to our own devices.  

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

If your Will can effect other people then it may be that believing it cannot is sufficient to render it useless.

 

A win-win situation?

 

I am assuming such thoughts are generated by ignorance of the process . Eg;

 

if I think ' I am going to make a magical sword and 'will' it to be .... even if I stare and grimace and shake with 'power' of my projected will    ( )   and it doesn't  'manifest' .... bah humbug, magic is BS .

 

But if I  actually decided to follow Crowley's instructions regarding  Magick .... which our little demon friend seems  caught up in  (and protesting about at the same time ... while claiming a high grade from it ... as well as mental and psychological ruination  ... and then advising us on how to get to the same level ) 

 

 

 

Then I might understand that a LINK is required between such 'will'  and any resultant action required .... if one actually bothered to read Crowley  on this you would find instructions to , ideally, learn  how to    smelt and cast the metal yourself , forge the sword , and learn  other arts that would go into it  , including elemental rounds of fire air water earth  ( furnace, bellows, quenching and  hammering on anvil ) ... all processes and actions , initially set off  by  your 'will' to have a magical sword .

 

And, as you say,   if  will does not believe it  would   be able to achieve it , will stops there and does nothing  and it is 'sufficient to render it useless' .

Edited September 7, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

The thing is, when you deal with super phenomenal events like entering the Abyss or struggling with Quithloth, or entering the tree of life, you enter there with an understanding of what it means, but when you go there, those meanings become moot.

 

I know what you mean .

 

I had total understanding of what people  did  in  India ... yet when I went there ... the stubborn buggers would not conform with my understanding !   

 

 

Dude !   You're gold ! 

 

Quote

  I went in thinking a lot of different things, but when I got there, it was a lot of madness.  I had to fight it off to find understanding.  I don't think this initiation is meant for understanding, I think it is just a curse, forcing a person to find a place to settle their mind on what they know so that they stop struggling with the demon (you).  I did have a few words given to me, and a lot of partial conversations with spirits, but mostly it was too hard to comprehend.  I've gathered that the initiate enters Chaos and has to reassemble their understanding, but it's not like they help you do this.  I've since grown skeptical of explanations of what these things are, and skeptical of what the Gods intend for us.  I know this is an uncommon event because I don't hear much about it, and I wonder at the people that wrote anything about it whether they actually went through it. 

 

And now, people that actually might know what is going on in India try to explain my problem  ... but I dont think they have actually   been to India at all as their  experience was different to my expectations and 'understandings'

 

 

 

Quote

From what I have witnessed, it is simply the turning in of Will and thought onto the magician and they struggle with themselves, and that is when I realized that projecting my Will was a delusion.  If not a delusion, at least it isn't something that can be mastered or confirmed by practice, though there was a time that I was convinced I could.  I can no longer do anything of that nature.  My Will is silent, my desires are little, my thoughts are tamed, I have no imagination or curiosity.  I am stuck in a meditative state.  I don't know what the future holds; this could be the Babe in the Abyss stage, or, according to Crowley, it could be Ipsissimus. 

 

yes, that could be it  ....

 

you are about to become an Ipsissimus  !  

 

Congratulations  ...... I'll get you a hat .

 

 

 

 

Quote

I don't feel like I am a master of magick, though if I really tried, I could outline magick for some people. 

 

So, you could outline  ' magick' ( spelling suggests Cowley's style )  yet don't think the Will is a driving force behind it that  nor can it effect others, objects or the Universe ...

 

which is in direct opposition to what Crowley said .

 

And you are setting yourself up here as some type of magical / (nearly / maybe) Ipsissimus magical councillor .

 

 

Quote

I don't feel like it is enlightenment, though I have organized my understanding so that I am comfortable with what I know about the World and the supernatural.  

 

Your posting history clearly does not show someone that is comfortable nor organised in understanding ... and you just rejected , in a previous post , the supernatural and now you are playing with the idea that all of this might constitute  enlightenment  ?

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

It really doesn't matter what "grade" of a magician I am since I no longer believe in the promises of Magick.  

[Lairg]

What a mage does is mage-ic.  

 

So how does one become a mage?

 

Pay money to a mail order RC business?

 

Go through group/individual rituals?

 

Join a religion?

 

Better perhaps to start as a gardener

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Lairg

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

It really doesn't matter what "grade" of a magician I am since I no longer believe in the promises of Magick.  

 

Oh, okay then ... a 'change of tack' is it ?

 

It doesn't matter what grade ... you say  .... in a thread YOU made about grades of initiation .

 

And now you are inferring that you might be a 'magician' ...  even though you no longer believe in it , or any of the essential processes of Magick .

 

At this stage , even you, should be able to detect the rampant confusion here .

 

In other words .... you are ranting all over the place, being inconsistent with views and instructions, obviously demonstrating your incompetence and lack of belief in the field  but constantly giving your advice on the same field ...  you might be near Ipsissimus , even  though grades dont matter  ...

 

And by now  you will have thought the best approach is to just ignore any criticism  and continue on the same .

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

What a mage does is mage-ic.  

 

So how does one become a mage?

 

Nowadays  , via self declaration .

 

It is  further cemented by making posts about how you are a mage on the internet .

 

The advanced mage will have a website and a 'donations'  or fees section .

 

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Pay money to a mail order RC business?

 

yeah .... thats it !    The more you pay the better .    I mean  why would any one want to even consider what a person might hold in tradition and 'instruction' that had a provable 'grade' and seat  ( 'stall' ) in the national R+C chapter  .... and had to work , study and pass tests and exams ( set  and tested by competent real people , other than  the self   ....   )  to be invited to it , after passing through  7 preliminary levels

 

WHEN 

 

you could find some guy that  tried all this and only got to.... the first  level  ... , and then abandoned  all that  to run off and create a fake RC body with now, internet instruction , mail order fees to grant you a certificate  and teach you how to put glass of water in sunshine , and then drink it .

 

 

Hmmmmm ....     ...  I know !   The second one !      'Spencer Lewis  style '  !     AMOK 

 

  ... ooops, I meant AMORC .   

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Go through group/individual rituals?

 

Oh heavens no !   Those sort of things need to be denied or imagined .

 

Whatever you do, do not involve others , they might give  an objective view of your 'certainties' and 'Pontifical decrees ' .

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Join a religion?

 

Well, apparently that only applies to Sufism  ... it's Islamic , apparently  other forms of Sufism  deserve derision and mocking  ( even though Sufis themselves say it has been and is through many religions and non religion ) .

 

But thats the sort of things religion is 'good' at . 

 

 

5 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Better perhaps to start as a gardener

 

 

 

 

Wonderful ! 

 

And I'd suggest to keep up the gardening all through one's training and practice .

 

I think it is in Crowley's MWT ;   A 'student' asked a whole lot of technical questions and listed all this stuff he was doing and  a lot of technicalities and asked 'The Beast' for advice .  He told him to go and do some gardening      .

 

 

Hey  HD !

 

Go do some gardening ! 

 

 

 

 

[Lairg]

Gardening is important because the would-be mage can learn:

 

- Right relationship by attuning to plants and soil - offering assistance to them and feeling the response - pruning/harvesting with their permission 

 

- A sense of the cosmic tides - e.g. when to plant - it varies day to day

 

- Relationship with other kingdoms that work with ecosystems including nature spirit and greater deva 

 

- In suitable sites, cooperative management of stellar and planetary meridians

 

- Anchoring of cosmic patterns for unfoldment of planets and ecosystems

 

- Sometimes a sense of timeline interactions in the local unfolding of Existence

 

- The place of oneself as an actor in the cosmic pattern

 

- ...

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Lairg

[Cobie]

.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

[my highlighting]

 You don’t strike me as  ’comfortable’ with yourself at all, quite the opposite. You strike me as a person with such faulty thinking as to make yourself deeply depressed; then trying to make yourself feel better by hectoring others on the forum, trying to convince them you are the enlightened master to kowtow to. Barf.

“Better for one to remain silent and have others think him a fool than to open his mouth and confirm all suspicions.” - Mark Twain

 

[helpfuldemon]

Even Crowley couldn't be certain what grade he achieved.  Personally, I don't see it as something to brag about.  The grades are just a measuring tool for the adept to consider when realizing what they understand.  I know what I've experienced and I know all that I have considered.  Crowley says that there is no more magick at the higher grade, and I can see why.  The Ipssissimus has no Will in any direction, and that is how I feel.  Does it confer some greater truth?  No, for me I have finished my study and mostly understand what I can validate.  I've got my moral training done, I've overcome the delusions of Magick, I've lived my life as I chose to, I am who I became, I know myself.  I still struggle, but I don't have to answer to you or anyone else about my meandering mind.

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Cobie said:

[my highlighting]

 You don’t strike me as  ’comfortable’ with yourself at all. You strike me as a person with such faulty thinking as to make yourself deeply depressed; then trying to make yourself feel better by hectoring others on the forum, trying to convince them you are the enlightened master to kowtow to. Barf.

 

 

 

 

Its typical of him  - look at his early posts ; a self confessed psychotic having hallucinations , weird fantasies , psyche meds - all info offered up by himself and posted on the record  right here !

 

Its  as if he thinks  WE  forgot he posted al that ! 

 

 Then tries to pass himself off as some type of 'helpful' magician ... giving the worse advice to any would be beginner  and then getting pissed off at anyone that points out how confused , illogical, undisciplined and self contradictory he is !

 

 

Hmmmm ...... I just got an interesting idea  !

 

A demonic exorcism  .....   ' at a distance'    .....    I dont need his permission or anything , I can do it from here . 

 

' EAD '

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Even Crowley couldn't be certain what grade he achieved.  Personally, I don't see it as something to brag about. 

 

No . You just consider yourself a probable Ipsissimus ... no bragging there at all eh ? Just stating facts .

 

 

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

The grades are just a measuring tool for the adept to consider when realizing what they understand.  I know what I've experienced and I know all that I have considered.  Crowley says that there is no more magick at the higher grade, and I can see why. 

 

Have you considered that Crowley wrote that  there are only 3 grades ?  ' The Man (or Woman ) of Earth. The Lovers. The Hermit.

 

Now, I challenge you   to cite the place where Crowley says  ; " there is no more magick at the higher grade, "

 

Go on .

 

Or just admit you are making it up as you go along .

 

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

The Ipssissimus has no Will in any direction, and that is how I feel.

 

It might be how YOU   feel .  But not how you ARE and not how you act .   Someone with no will any direction would not be posting  as you have , would not have such a BENT agenda of self complaint and self aggrandisement at the same time .

 

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

  Does it confer some greater truth?  No, for me I have finished my study and mostly understand what I can validate.  I've got my moral training done, I've overcome the delusions of Magick, I've lived my life as I chose to, I am who I became, I know myself.  I still struggle, but I don't have to answer to you or anyone else about my meandering mind.

 

No you dont ,  your mind can meander as much as it wants ....  but when it breaks out into the sort of things you write .... in a public forum  , what do you expect ?

 

If I wrote in a home maintenance forum  " I am crazy , I go to psychiatrist , I take psyche meds .   God put a burning  black star on the soles of my feet and now I cant stand still .  By the way, I am a fully qualified electric engineer  ..... I think  ... anyway , if your lights dont work, turn on the power point and stick a fork in there  . "

 

And then bitched winged and complained that a people picked my posts and ideas apart , got uppity and said " I can think  what I want and allow my mind to wander as I will ."  

 

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Crowley couldn't be certain what grade he achieved. 

 

I saw him a couple of times long after his death.  The first time he was stuck in his lower mind, aggressively using his personal will to move to transpersonal states - and of course failing.  What a grumpy sod he was at the time.

 

The second time he had somehow learned that the heart is the portal to the transpersonal (for most humans) and had managed to move to the third subplane of the mental - the lowest subplane in the soul body (neschama)

 

 

[Nungali]

Oh ! Dont ya just hate them  grumpy old would be transpersonal staters  !   

 

You would have thought the Old Boy would have realised that ' ib / heart stuff'   previously   .....   ya know, from Egyptology and all that  .

 

Plus being a Sufi

 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Oh ! Dont ya just hate them  grumpy old would be transpersonal staters  !   

 

You would have thought the Old Boy would have realised that ' ib / heart stuff'   previously   .....   ya know, from Egyptology and all that  .

 

Plus being a Sufi

 

 

 

How come Crowley gets to be all the fun stuff?  

[helpfuldemon]

Anyway, back on topic.  

 

The 7=4 is already an Adept of a high degree.  They have already completed moral training, already understand their Will, already have composed a map of the Universe; they already do their Will.  

 

There are probably many reasons for entering the Abyss.  I am not one of those that confer special status to the 7=4.  I believe they have achieved enlightenment and dedicate themselves to the higher good of mankind, but that might be reaching.  Certainly it takes something special to enter the Abyss, some Divine movement of the Gods, who knows?  In the end, they are no different than any other Adept.

 

They enter Chaos.  Their sense of Order is torn asunder.  They are forced to examine all that they previously understood.  They undertake a new pursuit of knowledge to aid them (the Cup of Babylon).  They are forced to climb and they have a demon to fight (themselves).  

 

In this climb, they re-examine themselves as well, and their heart is purified.  If you believe in karma, they process their karma.  If you believe in reincarnation, if they are successful, they probably don't reincarnate.  They should conclude on some new Wisdom (for themselves, if not for mankind), and they have insight into life and the Universe and the heart and mind.  There is some science learned as well, for they have witnessed parts of the body that only an initiate feels.

 

You may call them a Saint, but I personally do not attribute anything special to this title.  In fact, I don't attribute any special privileges or powers to these people that ascend from the Abyss.  I think all people are equal in the eyes of God, and that you have a certain amount of experience that will lend itself to your process of becoming, and you get what you become in terms of Heaven.  The most an Adept of the Abyss has over others is the opportunity to examine themselves and the world again, more fully than previously, and they should be more Wise than before.  These people go on to produce works, but it is said that they also retire away from society and are unnoticed.  It probably depends, again, on what they drank from the Cup of Babylon, how extensive their struggles in the Abyss were, and who they know and what resources they possess.  The Adept of the Abyss knows things uncommon, but again, there is nothing truly different than an Adept of a lower grade.  

 

Why do I write this?  I am not here to boast about my achievements.  I am a small man of meager talent and resources.  I did take an oath to aid mankind, and I am trying to document my experiences to aid anyone that follows.  I have written some of my Truth in other places, but as I realize; the simple Truth is easiest to ignore.  Perhaps if people seeking Wisdom were less concerned with magical powers and hidden realities, they would see Truth more clearly.  Perhaps if people were less concerned with following a teacher, and more concerned with personal progress and clarity, they would see what is in front of them.  I think Magick is a distraction, though it is indeed fun.  Too often, I think, the heart is ignored by Magick people.  But then, who ever said the heart is the end all?  I guess I would   Love is the answer to our problems my friends.  

 

But, Do What Thou Wilt!

[mrpasserby]

@helpfuldemon   

"There are probably many reasons for entering the Abyss.  I am not one of those that confer special status to the 7=4.  I believe they have achieved enlightenment and dedicate themselves to the higher good of mankind, but that might be reaching.  Certainly it takes something special to enter the Abyss, some Divine movement of the Gods, who knows?  In the end, they are no different than any other Adept."

I have enjoyed reading many of your recent posts.

To more clearly understand some of your comments in this and other of you posts. Can you please post your definition, of what you are calling the Abyss. Thanks

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by mrpasserby
clarity

[helpfuldemon]

47 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

@helpfuldemon   

"There are probably many reasons for entering the Abyss.  I am not one of those that confer special status to the 7=4.  I believe they have achieved enlightenment and dedicate themselves to the higher good of mankind, but that might be reaching.  Certainly it takes something special to enter the Abyss, some Divine movement of the Gods, who knows?  In the end, they are no different than any other Adept."

I have enjoyed reading many of your recent posts.

To more clearly understand some of your comments in this and other of you posts. Can you please post your definition, of what you are calling the Abyss. Thanks

 

Thank you.  

 

The Abyss is a supernatural state; another realm.  It is also a mental condition. For one to reach such a mystical condition, one must have their sense of life in perfect order, but come to recognize that life is not order, it is chaos.  You also need the key to the Abyss.  When you enter, you are assailed by a vision of God, who resides above, or perhaps in the very center, of the Abyss.  God greets you, and you are sent back into the Abyss.  It is a place of great confusion.  There are spirits there that start to interact with you.  Physically,  the Adept experiences the grinding of his essence into a hundred pieces and then they are assailed by forces that turn their Will and thoughts back onto the Adept.  It is a place of utter Chaos and loss.  There is little hope or help.  It is sink or swim.  The Adept has to fight off the demons and the voices and the physical assault on their body, and eventually submit to these powers.  In order to find the Will to submit, the Adept has to have ordered their perspective again, and stop questioning.  This is not easy, for there are many questions.  They "rise" by establishing a pattern of understanding and acceptance, and get stronger in their understanding and submission.  When they finally stabilize, they can say once again, that they comprehend.