Ancient Masters

[Zork]

On 9/18/2022 at 4:19 AM, Shadow_self said:

Magic tricks, visualizations...etc etc etc. If it is contact with spirit you want...they are a  poor use of time and effort....Just adding more layers instead of stripping them away.

This is plain wrong. It shows ignorance of Tibetan Tantra methods and Hermetic magic practices. Visualisation is key to these practices! Bardon has the exercise in the forefront of his book Initiation to the hermetics. Do you know better than Bardon?

On 9/18/2022 at 4:19 AM, Shadow_self said:

So you want to start building foundation? Learn to sit still without moving.....start by aiming for 30 minutes and then 1 hour. Also, begin stretching...a lot.

Again these have nothing to do with hermetic magic traditions. The foundations have only one thing in common. Meditation. The actual practices, like purification rituals, diverge completely after that. Even the energy systems are different.

 

[Vajra Fist]

8 hours ago, Zork said:

The foundations have only one thing in common. Meditation. The actual practices, like purification rituals, diverge completely after that. Even the energy systems are different.

 

Off topic, but I found this a particularly interesting discussion about visualisation, and how it serves as a bridge between magick and Buddhist traditions.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[stirling]

On 9/17/2022 at 7:37 PM, Aeordimm said:

As someone who developed this course, I would say there are many ways to achieve what you want. Our method is one of the options you have. You can train alone, in a group, with a personal teacher, free or paid.

In my experience, training in a group provides more discipline and motivation and makes a student stick to the routine. Sure, there's plenty of information online, but trying to use it to your benefit is a whole other thing. Usually, when there's no teacher with a stick to hit you, a student loses passion over time.

Why did I put up this course? Because it worked for me (us) to acquire mental strength and to become aware of myself as a non-physical entity. A long time ago, when I was a student myself, I had the same issue when I knew a lot of information was out there, and I tried energy stuff on my own, but I only ended up hurting myself, which took a long time to recover.

 

As for the financial part of the equation, to each his own, it's best to be on a sound footing and not worry about material things if you're willing to spend a lot of time in cultivation.

 

 

Regarding pursuing immortality, it's never meant in the physical sense of it (although it would've been nice). Even great masters die.

 

Very nice to see a thoughtful response in what looked like a possibly contentious topic about your website and program.  

 

I agree that group training can be helpful for the right sort of student. I also agree that having a teacher can be greatly beneficial. 

 

I'd be curious to hear what you mean by a "non-physical entity", and about what is "immortal" that isn't physical. This is not meant as a trap - more that I am interested in comparing your day to day experience with my own, which I would be happy to share. 

 

Thanks. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by stirling

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

Off topic, but I found this a particularly interesting discussion about visualisation, and how it serves as a bridge between magick and Buddhist traditions.

 

You won't find a more sincere, sober accounting on this topic than one from Daniel. He doesn't teach for money, and is interested in the whole shebang - enlightenment, magic, science, you name it. He IS fully realized, but also interested in other traditions, and in the use of the language of science for the exploration of what these shifts are about. His accounts of his own experience are frank, honest and plainly spoken.

 

His non-profit is here:

 

https://ebenefactors.org

[Shadow_self]

12 hours ago, Zork said:

This is plain wrong. It shows ignorance of Tibetan Tantra methods and Hermetic magic practices. Visualisation is key to these practices! Bardon has the exercise in the forefront of his book Initiation to the hermetics. Do you know better than Bardon?

Again these have nothing to do with hermetic magic traditions. The foundations have only one thing in common. Meditation. The actual practices, like purification rituals, diverge completely after that. Even the energy systems are different.

 

Actually I have a bit of knowledge in Tibetan Tantra methods....I know quite a few practitioners..ones that have actual achievement and are initiated...its just not my cup of tea...

 

Im not big on the whole deity stuff.

 

But here's the issue...meditation is not the "only thing they have in common"

 

The thing that makes Tibetan Tantric methods work is Tsa Lung Trul Khor....Guess what it does? Stretch

The thing that makes Daoist Methods work? Yijinjing principles...guess what it does? Stretch

The thing that Makes the Hindu methods work? Things like Hatha Yoga...what does it do? Stretch?

 

You know what else these things have in common...their correct mechanics are not readily taught...why? because these are what actually make the systems work...and they can be quite dangerous. 

 

Even Bardon (who in my opinion offers relatively little) the more senior ones who still teach his material will tell you the physical methods required are simply not available in the book. Moreover it is a magic based tradition, which is actually a detour away from spirituality. I suggest you think long and hard as to why that might be the case

 

The visualization methods in Tibetan Buddhism are more focused (not exclusively) around the "creation stage" for a reason...they are widely available outer door methods. The creation stage practices of Diety Yoga they are used as a form of "method acting" to understand the nature (and fallacy) of self identity. There are far better and more efficient means of doing so...kind of like asking do you prefer to cut your steak with a knife, or a spoon. 

 

The real stuff that actually gets things going does not require your imagination

 

But do yourself a favour...go back further and see where the hype for visualization comes from in terms of meditative (not magical) traditions....and what the term actually means.

 

To visualize does not mean to imagine AT ALL

 

To visualize was initially for something to arise spontaneously without the use of imagination as a vision...numerous folk over time took it to mean imagine this or that...and so some other folk realised that in deeper states your mind can consciously call up images...and they started to do it...and the whole thing became one big nonsensical game of Chinese whispers...to the point that you have certain teachers telling people to mentally trace the pre and post heaven baguas onto their bodies at the lower dantien and mingmen points (FFS)...and yet qi is supposed to be workable while you are trying to do this? Not only is it counterintuitive...its plain ridiculous 

 

To be brief

 

Trying to force a nimmita to arise, is not the same as one arising of it's own accord....the former is fooling oneself..the latter is a sign of progress and necessary event to continue certain practice

 

So...lets sum up....for the  majority of people...what does visualization do exactly? 

 

Playing with their imaginations in most cases, increased concentration if they are good at it (which is helpful) ...or trying to play with magic in others...magic working around some of the same principles as shamanism, messing with entities one level above and below the human realm is again a complete and utter waste of time in terms of contacting spirit...which is beyond such activities

 

Does it change according to tradition? Somewhat...but the crux of the matter is it is neither required nor an efficient way of approaching spirituaity

 

PS...suggest you read and listen to much of Ian Bakers work... he has mentioned on several occasions how Visualization is unnecessarily overemphasized in Tibetan Practices...a point echoed to me by aforementioned initiates.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Off topic, but I found this a particularly interesting discussion about visualisation, and how it serves as a bridge between magick and Buddhist traditions.

 

 

 

 

I have listened to a lot of his talks...He comes across as touch and go to be honest

 

But heres an important point (perhaps one you know already)

 

Kasinas are not visualizations nor were they ever, and the nimittas arise of their own accord.

[Zork]

10 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The thing that makes Tibetan Tantric methods work is Tsa Lung Trul Khor....Guess what it does? Stretch

You really don't know what you are talking about. One of the exercises in tsa lung is 9 purification breaths which have visualisation.

 

10 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Actually I have a bit of knowledge in Tibetan Tantra methods....I

 No you don't...

 

10 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Even Bardon (who in my opinion offers relatively little) the more senior ones who still teach his material will tell you the physical methods required are simply not available in the book.

Eh no this isn't true. He mentions doing some regular exercise like isometrics but that isn't important.

10 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But do yourself a favour...go back further and see where the hype for visualization comes from in terms of meditative (not magical) traditions....and what the term actually means.

Actually you need to read the books for a change because the second exercise in the book i mention is visualising an orange....

 

10 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Does it change according to tradition? Somewhat...but the crux of the matter is it is neither required nor an efficient way of approaching spirituaity

And this is based on what? Your own non-existent experiences with those methods?

Western magic has inner alchemy too and there is a long tradition going back at least a thousand years.

 

 

10 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

PS...suggest you read and listen to much of Ian Bakers work... he has mentioned on several occasions how Visualization is unnecessarily overemphasized in Tibetan Practices...a point echoed to me by aforementioned initiates.

Sure, i will listen to a random idiot on the web instead of respected teachers of Tibetan lineages who have visualisation in many practices like Dream yoga for example. I mean what could go wrong with trusting the opinion of random idiots who don't walk the talk?

 

Whatever doesn't fit your paradigm doesn't mean that it is inferior or doesn't work.

This will bite you back later on your journey. Keep to your system and don't criticize systems that you have no idea how they work. Magic has very little connections to qigong. They are separate systems.

 

edit. in case i am misunderstood the idiot is Ian Baker who criticizes ancient traditions based on superficial understanding.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Zork

[Vajra Fist]

12 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Kasinas are not visualizations nor were they ever, and the nimittas arise of their own accord.

 

He does say though that through this practice he was able to achieve the skill of effortless visualisation. To have an idea of something and then for it to appear in vivid detail. This is not the nimmita itself, it appears to be a field state after the nimmita dissolves. 

 

For instance he used the example of drawing a pentagram in the air with one's finger, or on a whim imagining (and vividly seeing) an alligator hovering above his bed. 

 

Vajrayana uses this sort of visualisation as an object of samatha, where the mental image of a buddha or mandala becomes a point of mental focus.

 

So it would seem that the main objection to visualisation - at least from the 'wu wei' approach - would be rather in the degree of mental effort required for the visualised object to appear. I.e. if you don't have the natural or trained facility to see visualised objects without effort. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

He does say though that through this practice he was able to achieve the skill of effortless visualisation. To have an idea of something and then for it to appear in vivid detail. This is not the nimmita itself, it appears to be a field state after the nimmita dissolves. 

 

If one wants to see reality, what would be the point of visualising anything, no matter how vividly or effortlessly it appears? How to see reality seems more relevant to me. 

 

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

For instance he used the example of drawing a pentagram in the air with one's finger, or on a whim imagining (and vividly seeing) an alligator hovering above his bed. 

 

Vajrayana uses this sort of visualisation as an object of samatha, where the mental image of a buddha or mandala becomes a point of mental focus.

 

So it would seem that the main objection to visualisation - at least from the 'wu wei' approach - would be rather in the degree of mental effort required for the visualised object to appear. I.e. if you don't have the natural or trained facility to see visualised objects without effort. 

 

[Vajra Fist]

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If one wants to see reality, what would be the point of visualising anything, no matter how vividly or effortlessly it appears? How to see reality seems more relevant to me. 

 

 

 

Because insight often requires concentration. Visualisation is a method of developing concentration, in the same way as the breath.

 

The visuddhimagga is full of such samatha practices, many of which involve visualisation. 

 

[Bindi]

I understand there are honoured systems that perceive things are this way, but I have to admit I am coming from a very different angle. Very occasionally I am in the mood to dispute the status quo  

[Shadow_self]

10 hours ago, Zork said:

You really don't know what you are talking about. One of the exercises in tsa lung is 9 purification breaths which have visualisation.

 

Yes I am very aware of that...But the 9 purification breaths are taken from older pranayama practices...the imagination is not a vital part of the mechanics..you can do them without it...and people have and continue to

 

Its almost as if you think someone with aphantasia could not practice?

 

The tsa lung truk khor are basically movements co-ordinated with the breath. Tibetan yoga if you would, similar in mechanics to what the Daoists have, the same as the Hindus have. In fact if you knew your history you'd be able to trace this stuff back. 

 

That is the common link in the earlier stages...the underlying "extra stuff" that you refer to is not necessary...If it was all traditions would have it deeply embedded

 

Do you actually understand why they are visualizing in those practices? Do you understand the rationale?

 

Quote

 

 No you don't...

 

Actually I do. I don't need to have a practice based in the tradition to understand how it it works or the mechanics of them. I'm fortune to know people who are in these lines and more than willing to share. I also have the opportunity to train in them should I wish to.

 

I just choose not to, for the reasons I mentioned prior

 

Quote

 

Eh no this isn't true. He mentions doing some regular exercise like isometrics but that isn't important.

 

Ask a teacher, or better yet go train with one. The foremost teacher I know of those practices at the moment is Mark Rasmus, and he would tell you that opening and elasticising the body is not only important...it is essential.

 

The fact that you don't know why Bardon doesn't  include it,  indicates to me that perhaps something is lacking in your understanding of the mechanics at play here

 

Quote

Actually you need to read the books for a change because the second exercise in the book i mention is visualising an orange....

 

I'm quite aware of the book. It sat on my shelf for several years collecting dust after I finished it. I'll probably give it to a charity shop when i get around to it.

 

Incomplete instructions are incomplete instructions...and sitting down visualising anything is not necessary when there are far more potent concentration exercises that can lead one towards spirit.

 

Quote

 

And this is based on what? Your own non-existent experiences with those methods?

Western magic has inner alchemy too and there is a long tradition going back at least a thousand years.

I have two teachers of separate traditions, One from Esoteric Buddhism, One from Daoist. I know quite a few people from different traditions in the latter on top of that,

 

I know several people who initiates of Tibetan Lines, and am lucky that they are willing to share...even though its not my cup of tea, it is nice to get an insight into the mechanics. And like I said...I could start in one of those traditions tomorrow if I chose to. 

 

The western traditions are all but dead and have been lost for centuries...what remains is mostly nonsense and complete crap. Finding authentic lines is nigh on impossible. 

 

The very few I know that have any measure of ability would tell you what is available is rubbish, and that they had to cross train to get anywhere

 

Quote

Sure, i will listen to a random idiot on the web instead of respected teachers of Tibetan lineages who have visualisation in many practices like Dream yoga for example. I mean what could go wrong with trusting the opinion of random idiots who don't walk the talk?

 

Whatever doesn't fit your paradigm doesn't mean that it is inferior or doesn't work.

This will bite you back later on your journey. Keep to your system and don't criticize systems that you have no idea how they work. Magic has very little connections to qigong. They are separate systems.

 

edit. in case i am misunderstood the idiot is Ian Baker who criticizes ancient traditions based on superficial understanding.

 

Random idiot on the Web? You realize Ian is literally endorsed by the Dalai Lama? They are on extremely good terms

 

He consistently leads expeditions to real lineages in Bhutan, is an initiate of multiple lines of Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Shaivism. He also trained with the Mo Pai, and is involved in Esoteric Buddhist lines in Myanmar. Also a scholar on the topic

 

I think you are making yourself look quite misinformed now

 

And please note what I said...overemphasized

 

I maintain my original position, there is zero need to visualize anything for contacting spirit. There are better, faster, more efficient means of doing things.

 

You are entitled to disagree as you please...it makes no difference to me

Edited September 20, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

He does say though that through this practice he was able to achieve the skill of effortless visualisation. To have an idea of something and then for it to appear in vivid detail. This is not the nimmita itself, it appears to be a field state after the nimmita dissolves. 

This goes back to the point I made earlier...In deeper states you can consciously conjure images at will...Blue elephant? Boom right before your eyes

 

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

For instance he used the example of drawing a pentagram in the air with one's finger, or on a whim imagining (and vividly seeing) an alligator hovering above his bed. 

Are these are different things though?

 

The pentagram drawing could be several things right? If one is consciously drawing an image using physical movements in the air...is that imagined? Im not so sure it

 

The alligator point is as above

 

I once hit a state that one of my teachers (Buddhist)  explained to me was very beneficial, and it involved seeing a bit deeper into the nature of reality. It becomes very apparent if you enter that state that what is in front of us when we open our eyes is a byproduct of the mind, arranged, organized and compartmentalised in order to allow us to navigate the territory...but when you sink deeper you get to see some of the underlying structures.

 

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Vajrayana uses this sort of visualisation as an object of samatha, where the mental image of a buddha or mandala becomes a point of mental focus.

Agreed...it is a concentration exercise...but that too means that if it has a mechanic...there are other means of achieving the same, it is a choice rather than a necessity.

 

The issue here then, becomes one of lineage...at what point are certain practices empowered etc etc.

 

Now that is why I said it can vary by tradition...I imagine these are things one would need deeper access to understand

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

So it would seem that the main objection to visualisation - at least from the 'wu wei' approach - would be rather in the degree of mental effort required for the visualised object to appear. I.e. if you don't have the natural or trained facility to see visualised objects without effort. 

Yes, quite well stated

 

There is more than one way to skin a cat, this is why I made the point about it being problematic

 

With things like buddhism, hinduism etc...if we are trying to get to a much deeper state...into things like jhana/samhadi...and we are using images with deep significance...the attachment process is inherent

 

This is  one reason why initially kasina objects were preferred I believe...Its a lot easier to move past a flame than it is to move past a buddha with religious significance

 

I should be clear...I quite enjoy the Tibetan tradition...Its just not for me personally. I would not encourage someone away from it either

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

While this is all very interesting, what does any of this have to do with the course?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Pak_Satrio

[Zork]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Yes I am very aware of that...But the 9 purification breaths are taken from older pranayama practices...the imagination is not a vital part of the mechanics..you can do them without it...and people have and continue to

 

Its almost as if you think someone with aphantasia could not practice?

 

The tsa lung truk khor are basically movements co-ordinated with the breath. Tibetan yoga if you would, similar in mechanics to what the Daoists have, the same as the Hindus have. In fact if you knew your history you'd be able to trace this stuff back. 

 

That is the common link in the earlier stages...the underlying "extra stuff" that you refer to is not necessary...If it was all traditions would have it deeply embedded

 

Do you actually understand why they are visualizing in those practices? Do you understand the rationale?

 

 

Actually I do. I don't need to have a practice based in the tradition to understand how it it works or the mechanics of them. I'm fortune to know people who are in these lines and more than willing to share. I also have the opportunity to train in them should I wish to.

 

I just choose not to, for the reasons I mentioned prior

 

 

Ask a teacher, or better yet go train with one. The foremost teacher I know of those practices at the moment is Mark Rasmus, and he would tell you that opening and elasticising the body is not only important...it is essential.

 

The fact that you don't know why Bardon doesn't  include it,  indicates to me that perhaps something is lacking in your understanding of the mechanics at play here

 

 

I'm quite aware of the book. It sat on my shelf for several years collecting dust after I finished it. I'll probably give it to a charity shop when i get around to it.

 

Incomplete instructions are incomplete instructions...and sitting down visualising anything is not necessary when there are far more potent concentration exercises that can lead one towards spirit.

 

I have two teachers of separate traditions, One from Esoteric Buddhism, One from Daoist. I know quite a few people from different traditions in the latter on top of that,

 

I know several people who initiates of Tibetan Lines, and am lucky that they are willing to share...even though its not my cup of tea, it is nice to get an insight into the mechanics. And like I said...I could start in one of those traditions tomorrow if I chose to. 

 

The western traditions are all but dead and have been lost for centuries...what remains is mostly nonsense and complete crap. Finding authentic lines is nigh on impossible. 

 

The very few I know that have any measure of ability would tell you what is available is rubbish, and that they had to cross train to get anywhere

 

 

Random idiot on the Web? You realize Ian is literally endorsed by the Dalai Lama? They are on extremely good terms

 

He consistently leads expeditions to real lineages in Bhutan, is an initiate of multiple lines of Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Shaivism. He also trained with the Mo Pai, and is involved in Esoteric Buddhist lines in Myanmar. Also a scholar on the topic

 

I think you are making yourself look quite misinformed now

 

And please note what I said...overemphasized

 

I maintain my original position, there is zero need to visualize anything for contacting spirit. There are better, faster, more efficient means of doing things.

 

You are entitled to disagree as you please...it makes no difference to me

This is 100% pure bullshit.

You are not part of these traditions and don't know what you are talking about.

You are the quintessential drifter who never stays at one art enough to be a master but thinks that encountering many arts and using academics you can master everything.

 

I hate to point it our to you lad but you are clueless and you will remain so. Just so you know, i have shown what you wrote to people of another magical tradition and the ROFLED at the nonsense.

 

I won't waste more time with uninformed patzers.....

[Shadow_self]

31 minutes ago, Zork said:

This is 100% pure bullshit.

You are not part of these traditions and don't know what you are talking about.

You are the quintessential drifter who never stays at one art enough to be a master but thinks that encountering many arts and using academics you can master everything.

 

I hate to point it our to you lad but you are clueless and you will remain so. Just so you know, i have shown what you wrote to people of another magical tradition and the ROFLED at the nonsense.

 

I won't waste more time with uninformed patzers.....

 

I don't need to be a part of a tradition to call out mechanics.Especially when explained to me prior by member of said traditions

 

Oh not a drifter at all...

 

I have two traditions I am very happy with...both complement each other nicely...more importantly...they actually get results and dont require your imagination to do so.

 

But you are welcome to pretend you know what you are talking about, then exit stage left, much like the last time you did when called on your inaccurate statements by a person of actual  knowledge

 

What was it last time? 11 months 

 

Pleasure as always @Zork Hopefully i'll hear from you again before next year

[Zork]

49 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I don't need to be a part of a tradition to call out mechanics.Especially when explained to me prior by member of said traditions

 

Oh not a drifter at all...

 

I have two traditions I am very happy with...both complement each other nicely...more importantly...they actually get results and dont require your imagination to do so.

 

But you are welcome to pretend you know what you are talking about, then exit stage left, much like the last time you did when called on your inaccurate statements by a person of actual  knowledge

 

What was it last time? 11 months 

 

Pleasure as always @Zork Hopefully i'll hear from you again before next year

Appealing to authority without even quoting what people said or where it can be found is a very well documented logical fallacy.

Your previous post was a boatload of this fallacy.

 

Don't bother with the traditions you are following they will lead you nowhere. Even if they are legit which i highly doubt, your unethical behaviour will prevent you from acvomplishing anything of any importance.

[Zork]

58 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I don't need to be a part of a tradition to call out mechanics.

Yes you do!

59 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Especially when explained to me prior by member of said traditions

Logical fallacy. You need to quote verbatim and let them explain their level of ignorance.

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Oh not a drifter at all...

yes you are!

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I have two traditions I am very happy with...both complement each other nicely...more importantly...they actually get results and dont require your imagination to do so.

 

And the results are?

Nothing at all of course.

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

But you are welcome to pretend you know what you are talking about, then exit stage left, much like the last time you did when called on your inaccurate statements by a person of actual  knowledge

Freeform is clueless and Damo isn't good and you know why.

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

What was it last time? 11 months 

 

Pleasure as always @Zork Hopefully i'll hear from you again before next year

The reason i left is because the mods have double standards.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Yes you do!

No you don't

 

You do not need to be a mechanic to understand how the different parts of an engine work, an explanation will suffice....

 

You just need to be one to take it apart and put it back together

 

Quote

Logical fallacy. You need to quote verbatim and let them explain their level of ignorance.

Not really, because quoting them verbatim and claiming their unwavering truth would be an appeal to authority

 

What I have done is taken their explanation of a process....cross referenced it against my own experiential and theoretical understanding based on practice..them not knowing what I know, and I not knowing what they know...allows for a mental model of differentiation and integration to occur....once you collate said data points and identify the shared mechanics...it becomes very clear what is essential and what isn't. 

 

You cross reference this with several other accounts, and pretty soon you get a basic understanding of what is happening

 

You may then play around with the practice if you wish to. Ive done it with Tummo plenty of times...No imagination needed

 

I notice you conveniently ran away from my question about mechanics...that's quite the habit you have

 

Shall we try again? Or are you going to go for round two of duck hunt and hide in the grass once more

 

Quote

yes you are!

No, im not  and I suggest you get to know me before the baseless claims come

 

Quote

And the results are?

 

Plenty, which have been discussed with people worth my time (some of who are friends and on this site) , my teachers, fellow practitioners...you know, people who actually do these things.

 

I'm not so keen on sharing discussion with folk who lack respect. You know the type that come in throw around insults and baseless claims, then run away when confronted

 

Quote

Nothing at all of course.

Wrong again. Funny that's quite the trend with you 

 

Quote

Freeform is clueless and Damo isn't good and you know why.

I have a far more personal teacher, where I get 1 to 1 instruction. No classes, no  public school. 1 to 1

 

Even with that everything I've mentioned in terms of practice and understanding passes the litmus test.

 

Even across traditions...So well, yeah...there's that

 

But in regards to who you mentioned. Im not going to speak for either one of them.  They don't need me to.

 

They both stand on their own credentials.

 

You however...have absolutely none. 

Quote

The reason i left is because the mods have double standards.

 

The reason you left was you were asked to explain your practice...and you ran away. Exactly like you are now avoiding my questions now...because you have no idea what you are saying in reality...hiding behind false claims and blanket unfounded statements

 

You cant even explain the mechanics behind the things your are advocating...its beyond unfortunate and just plain odd

 

@Vajra Fist did a better job of explaining it, and they weren't even asked the question nor advocating the practice

 

Says it all really

 

P.S If you want to continue...I suggest opening a specific thread..Ill gladly do this with you for as long as you please (which I imagine isnt much longer given your history of flight)

Edited September 20, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Appealing to authority without even quoting what people said or where it can be found is a very well documented logical fallacy.

Your previous post was a boatload of this fallacy.

 

Don't bother with the traditions you are following they will lead you nowhere. Even if they are legit which i highly doubt, your unethical behaviour will prevent you from accomplishing anything of any importance.

 

Appealing to authority is something you dont seem to understand..

 

I am telling you my opinion based on my understanding...my experiences, my teachers, and the people who write extensively on the topic...

 

So i am giving you an opinion...in fact all anyone can do is give an opinion on it

 

If you want the evidence for what I am saying...

 

Develop strong concentration skills and have a crack at tummo practice...get another person to do the same with the oh so peddled imaginary stuff...write your results down in isolation after a period of time and see what came of it

 

You'd be interested to see the result.

 

So actually I'm telling  you DONT take my word for it...or anyone else's.

 

Go and try it yourself

[Aeordimm]

On 9/19/2022 at 3:49 PM, stirling said:

 

Very nice to see a thoughtful response in what liked like a possibly contentious topic about your website and program.  

 

I agree that group training can be helpful for the right sort of student. I also agree that having a teacher can be greatly beneficial. 

 

I'd be curious to hear what you mean by a "non-physical entity", and about what is "immortal" that isn't physical. This is not meant as a trap - more that I am interested in comparing your day to day experience with my own, which I would be happy to share. 

 

Thanks. 

 

 

1. Non-physical entity simply means consistent awareness of self as a spirit in a vessel, where the spirit controls the body, not the other way around. It means that you have control over automatic body reactions and impulses.

 

2. "Immortal" generally refers to the ability to reduce the destruction of your spirit/mental body after you die. It depends on the "size" of a sea of consciousness, supported by past life memories and experiences and vast experiences of the present life. It's what people call talent or predisposition to certain things, where you don't have to learn a new skill from scratch in the next life. Sounds good on the surface, but it's easy to fall into a rabid hole of illusions when working with this.

[Zork]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

No you don't

 

You do not need to be a mechanic to understand how the different parts of an engine work, an explanation will suffice....

 

You just need to be one to take it apart and put it back together

You have no idea how stupid this claim is. Google Lataif and tell me how they (don't) relate at all with the energy centers of Hindu and taoist systems.

You should know IF you had ever studied Bardon. The energy structure that he included in the book is unlike the asian traditions. Your supposed (let's laugh here for a moment) knowledge of traditions does not include that?

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Not really, because quoting them verbatim and claiming their unwavering truth would be an appeal to authority

 

What I have done is taken their explanation of a process....cross referenced it against my own experiential and theoretical understanding based on practice..them not knowing what I know, and I not knowing what they know...allows for a mental model of differentiation and integration to occur....once you collate said data points and identify the shared mechanics...it becomes very clear what is essential and what isn't. 

 

You cross reference this with several other accounts, and pretty soon you get a basic understanding of what is happening

 

You may then play around with the practice if you wish to. Ive done it with Tummo plenty of times...No imagination needed

 

I notice you conveniently ran away from my question about mechanics...that's quite the habit you have

 

Shall we try again? Or are you going to go for round two of duck hunt and hide in the grass once more

What you did is appeal to authority mixed with hearsay without the actual quotes from people you claim have said stupid things which obviously they haven't!

You claim that stretching is emphasized by hermetic masters. NO this is false and you have no source to prove anything.

You claim that Ian whatever said something and you have nothing to show. It is just hearsay!

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

No, im not  and I suggest you get to know me before the baseless claims come

Sure drifter, no problem...

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Plenty, which have been discussed with people worth my time (some of who are friends and on this site) , my teachers, fellow practitioners...you know, people who actually do these things.

 

I'm not so keen on sharing discussion with folk who lack respect. You know the type that come in throw around insults and baseless claims, then run away when confronted

You sound exactly like the WMP crowd. Oh i am sure that you have plenty of sensations. Find another hobby, you won't get anywhere!

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Wrong again. Funny that's quite the trend with you 

Eh you are the guy who knows nothing about the subject yet keeps insisting.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I have a far more personal teacher, where I get 1 to 1 instruction. No classes, no  public school. 1 to 1

 

Even with that everything I've mentioned in terms of practice and understanding passes the litmus test.

 

Even across traditions...So well, yeah...there's that

 

But in regards to who you mentioned. Im not going to speak for either one of them.  They don't need me to.

 

They both stand on their own credentials.

 

You however...have absolutely none. 

blah blah blah more hearsay

blah blah blah more appeal to authority

blah blah blah no proof

 

you sound exactly like ilovecoffee.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The reason you left was you were asked to explain your practice...and you ran away. Exactly like you are now avoiding my questions now...because you have no idea what you are saying in reality...hiding behind false claims and blanket unfounded statements

Oh really? you know why i left better than me?

Get serious troll!

Why did you leave the AG thread then?

Should i speculate like you?

I know that you had no argument and you chickened out.

see how this goes?

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

You cant even explain the mechanics behind the things your are advocating...its beyond unfortunate and just plain odd

So one that can score from any position in the court, must know the precise mechanics behind shooting? That is a joke statement. I am not answering stupid stuff.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

P.S If you want to continue...I suggest opening a specific thread..Ill gladly do this with you for as long as you please (which I imagine isnt much longer given your history of flight)

Continue what? You have more hearsay and no proof? What is the point. I have already won.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

ppealing to authority is something you dont seem to understand..

No the problem is that YOU don't.

One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.^[21]

^{Carl Sagan}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Arguments from authority that are based on the idea that a person should conform to the opinion of a perceived authority or authoritative group are rooted in psychological cognitive biases^[41] such as the Asch effect.^[42][43] In repeated and modified instances of the Asch conformity experiments, it was found that high-status individuals create a stronger likelihood of a subject agreeing with an obviously false conclusion, despite the subject normally being able to clearly see that the answer was incorrect.^[44]

 

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

If you want the evidence for what I am saying...

That is easy. you need proof. You don't have it and instead of shutting up because you don't have it, you insist on giving your anything but expert opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

You need to provide facts why you know about a subject like western magic while you have never studied it.

You did not.

You have no argument.

I rest my case.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Zork

[Zork]

So @Shadow_self since you know about magic, what can you tell us about seals, candles, qaballah and how it relates to qigong and tummo?

 

2 hours ago, Aeordimm said:

2. "Immortal" generally refers to the ability to reduce the destruction of your spirit/mental body after you die. It depends on the "size" of a sea of consciousness, supported by past life memories and experiences and vast experiences of the present life. It's what people call talent or predisposition to certain things, where you don't have to learn a new skill from scratch in the next life. Sounds good on the surface, but it's easy to fall into a rabid hole of illusions when working with this.

Interesting. There is mention of the ability to control future incarnations in Bardo Thodol and the yogas of dream and sleep.

Ideally death should lead to enlightenment but if that fails the option to control the next incarnation so as to continue pursuing enlightenment is there.

 

What are the dangers that you are aware of? It sounds intriguing as you pointed out because you can keep magical skills through incarnations.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Zork

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Zork said:

You have no idea how stupid this claim is. Google Lataif and tell me how they (don't) relate at all with the energy centers of Hindu and taoist systems.

The underlying energetic networks are the same in all traditions...it is the degree of complexity with which they are discussed and where the emphasis is placed that changes

 

That is the reason alchemical practices produce practitioners with siddhi....because they work from they physical body upward...and that is also why you are crying and blabbering about traditions where you cannot show one individual of any achievement whatsoever

 

and the reason they dont have said developments? Because they dont have the practices to make it happen.

 

 

Quote

You should know IF you had ever studied Bardon. The energy structure that he included in the book is unlike the asian traditions. Your supposed (let's laugh here for a moment) knowledge of traditions does not include that?

 

What you did is appeal to authority mixed with hearsay without the actual quotes from people you claim have said stupid things which obviously they haven't!

 

Ah more nonsense...lets see who's telling the truth and who isnt then shall we

 

Quote

You claim that stretching is emphasized by hermetic masters. NO this is false and you have no source to prove anything.

 

Please see here...please refer to Mark who actually teaches IIH..

 

Unlike your unknowledgeable self...he understands the mechanics of internal work. Heres his course

 

https://themartialman.com/courses/initiation-into-hermetics-with-sifu-mark-rasmus/

 

Level 1 : Elasticising the body.

 

You are also most welcome to ask Mark about why this is important....because obviously you overlook why Bardon even mentions it in the first place...but your ignorance is forgiven..

 

I know some of Marks students, I train with one even...

 

they all reverberate just how important this is

 

Think Mark doesn't know what he's talking about?

 

Go and ask him how this works. 

 

I know several who can replicate a similar effect to this in person...They didnt imagine their way there that's for damn sure

 

Well...you were talking from the wrong side of your torso on the statement about that as I have demonstrated...lets move on shall we

 

 

Quote

You claim that Ian whatever said something and you have nothing to show. It is just hearsay!

 So Ian did not say that the purpose of the visualizations in creation stage was as  I mentioned?

 

https://www2.buddhistdoor.net/features/tibetan-yoga-the-hidden-treasure-of-tibetan-buddhism-an-interview-with-ian-a-baker

 

" Tibetan yoga, in the context of my book, refers specifically to the deeply embodied Completion Stage practices that traditionally follow foundational Creation Stage practices based upon focused attention and creative visualization. In Creation Stage Deity Yoga, practitioners transcend habitual self-conceptions by imaginatively transforming themselves into a tantric deity. In one sense, we can understand this process as a form of “method acting” that reveals the fluid nature of self-identity. "

 

You can go and listen to his interviews online where he states the other part of what I mentioned about the visualizations being overemphasized...I'm not digging up timestamps to please you....you might actually learn something for a change

 

(EDIT I posted one example below to demonstrate exactly what I was talking about foundations to get things going are physical...not mental screwing around) 

 

Moreover, his words have been echoed by just about every accomplished Tibetan Yoga practitioner I know...they are exercises designed to do exactly as Vajra Fist mentioned...and he wasn't even asked the question...

 

Meanwhile you ran away (AGAIN) and evaded the question because you have zero clue what you are talking about

 

So yes....again, as I mentioned...You are talking from the wrong end of your torso

 

 

Quote

Oh really? you know why i left better than me?

Get serious troll!

Why did you leave the AG thread then?

Should i speculate like you?

I know that you had no argument and you chickened out.

see how this goes?

 

I left the AG forum...and out of respect for @Earl Grey I wont get into why. You want to discuss AG? over you go

 

But you are entirely welcome to open as many threads as you like here and have any argument you wish with me...publicly.

 

 

Quote

 

So one that can score from any position in the court, must know the precise mechanics behind shooting? That is a joke statement. I am not answering stupid stuff.

 

Continue what? You have more hearsay and no proof? What is the point. I have already won.

 

No the problem is that YOU don't.

One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.^[21]

^{Carl Sagan}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Arguments from authority that are based on the idea that a person should conform to the opinion of a perceived authority or authoritative group are rooted in psychological cognitive biases^[41] such as the Asch effect.^[42][43] In repeated and modified instances of the Asch conformity experiments, it was found that high-status individuals create a stronger likelihood of a subject agreeing with an obviously false conclusion, despite the subject normally being able to clearly see that the answer was incorrect.^[44]

 

That is easy. you need proof. You don't have it and instead of shutting up because you don't have it, you insist on giving your anything but expert opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

You need to provide facts why you know about a subject like western magic while you have never studied it.

You did not.

You have no argument.

I rest my case.

 

I have already told you...the links to both practitioners are as above

 

But i'll give you one  more thing he said...to prove my point that the foundational practices are physical, and extremely demanding...

 

 

Start around 54.20 

 

" The Dzogchen practice we tend to think of as a "mind only" practice actually has IN ITS ORIGINAL ITERATION incredibly sophisticated physical Yogic practice that serves as its own induction, as its Ngöndro...The PRELIMINARY FOUNDATIONAL PRACTICES of Dzogchen are EXTREMELY PHYSICALLY DEMANDING. The book has a whole chapter on that. The CORE PRACTICE IS A HELD ISOMETRIC VARJA POSTURE which you see demonstrated here, AND YOU HOLD THIS UNTIL THE BODY COLLAPSES...AND YOU DO THIS UNTIL THE MIND AND BODY ARE EXHAUSTED AND THE MIND ENTERS INTO ITS NATURAL STATE"

 

No imagination needed...BUT they do use one (Because Tibetan lines love that)

 

You visualize yourself as a blue scepter. 

 

And I even had the rationale explained as to why..its twofold....#1 Concentration...#2..SO IT KEEPS YOUR SPINE straight

 

Ive done it with and without the visualization...same result

 

The latter worked faster being honest

 

Ill reiterate my point...

 

NOT REQUIRED

 

If you have enough discernment  you might see the cross reference between this posture and the Wuji posture, especially where one set of limbs are concerned...though I am doubtful at this point...seeing as in three posts you've said absolutely nothing of value ( yet again)

 

So there is no argument from authority here...when I tell you the mechanics are shared, im not just saying that based on what someone else said...not at all

 

You want to see them say it, or advocate for it? See above

 

Actually I could even quote another who I know you respect on this very site, stating that the foundations (from another tradition again)  are "horribly" uncomfortable...but im not pulling others into the discussion...its not needed.

 

Any practitioner I know worth their salt with any degree of ability whatsoever...had the same story regardless of whether or not they shared the practice with me...it was as mentioned...physically demanding, uncomfortable and required zero imagination whatsoever

 

So you want to see if I'm telling the truth?  Find someone to show you and practice it yourself.

 

Had you been someone else, and had some respect...Id tell you we could practice it and I could show you the refinement for that one Dzogchen posture mentioned above until you get the result (just to prove a point, but also because I have no tie to a lineage but was shown how its done) ...but quite honestly, you're not worth giving anything to. (Though I can vouch for its authenticity and shared mechanics) 

 

So go find it for yourself and try it out and see it for yourself...don't take my word for it...though I imagine with that attitude and ego...anyone else with anything worth showing will probably get the same bad vibe

 

So to sum up

 

Answer my question about visualization and open another thread to do so if you insist on continuing plastering walls of nothing across this thread...

 

Otherwise, stop wasting time and derailing the thread please...

 

If you don't open a new thread, don't expect a reply..I wont be catching a warning or ban because you haven't got basic forum etiquette 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Zork]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

The underlying energetic networks are the same in all traditions...it is the degree of complexity with which they are discussed and where the emphasis is placed that changes

NO.

They differ. I already pointed out a tradition that differs.Hermetics differ too. Organs have different polarities and there is no yang and yin chi.

1-0

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

That is the reason alchemical practices produce practitioners with siddhi....because they work from they physical body upward...and that is also why you are crying and blabbering about traditions where you cannot show one individual of any achievement whatsoever

 

and the reason they dont have said developments? Because they dont have the practices to make it happen.

Irrelevant argument. 2-0

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Ah more nonsense...lets see who's telling the truth and who isnt then shall we

Says the major producer of bullshit in the thread.... lol

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Please see here...please refer to Mark who actually teaches IIH..

 

Unlike your unknowledgeable self...he understands the mechanics of internal work. Heres his course

 

https://themartialman.com/courses/initiation-into-hermetics-with-sifu-mark-rasmus/

 

Level 1 : Elasticising the body.

False. It is just a minor part of level 1. and oh btw look what i found! 

24. Step 2. M. Visualization

Your source proves you wrong. Guess why that happened? Because you have no f*cking idea what you are talking about!

3-0

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

" Tibetan yoga, in the context of my book, refers specifically to the deeply embodied Completion Stage practices that traditionally follow foundational Creation Stage practices based upon focused attention and creative visualization. In Creation Stage Deity Yoga, practitioners transcend habitual self-conceptions by imaginatively transforming themselves into a tantric deity. In one sense, we can understand this process as a form of “method acting” that reveals the fluid nature of self-identity. "

He says that they use visualisation. I was certain that he could have never said something so stupid that visualisation isn't needed.

4-0

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I left the AG forum...and out of respect for @Earl Grey I wont get into why. You want to discuss AG? over you go

 

But you are entirely welcome to open as many threads as you like here and have any argument you wish with me...publicly.

This is public. Where is the problem?

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I have already told you...the links to both practitioners are as above

 

But i'll give you one  more thing he said...to prove my point that the foundational practices are physical, and extremely demanding..

This is just appealing to authority all over again.

5-0

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

You visualize yourself as a blue scepter. 

So visualisation again? Wow that helps your argument a lot.

6-0

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Any practitioner I know worth their salt with any degree of ability whatsoever...had the same story regardless of whether or not they shared the practice with me...it was as mentioned...physically demanding, uncomfortable and required zero imagination whatsoever

Ah the "No true Scotsman fallacy". You really are a treasure to study logical fallacies in arguments!

7-0

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

So you want to see if I'm telling the truth?  Find someone to show you and practice it yourself.

Ah "the leap at Rhodes" fallacy. Man you are shooting turd after turd.

https://americanliterature.com/author/aesop/short-story/the-leap-at-rhodes

8-0

 

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Otherwise, stop wasting time and derailing the thread please...

You are the one derailing it mister.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Zork