Seven Steps to Deep Meditation

[Master Logray]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

When talking to most people with a passing interest in this stuff I say ‘meditative practice’… for me this term works ok. When I say meditation - generally (unless I’m mocking) I mean the state of meditative absorption. But I only really say it amongst people that understand what I mean.

 

 

Me too.  When people ask, I say I do Qigong which is more than sufficient, or merely "exercises, stretching...".

 

[Master Logray]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

For instance - yes if you contrive and manipulate your breath to simulate the long, relaxed breath that a meditator would have - you will get some experiences. (About 2 breaths a minute is the target in that case - not 4 to 7)

 

 

I still think a certain level of contrivances or deliberate stuff are necessary in some stages.  Let say I am having 20 breaths a minute.  It is useful to simulate meditative breathing by manipulation to cut down to 15 per minute, in a few months.  Further cuts, could be in a milder, less intervention gradual manner.  On the other hand if I "follow the natural", wuwei, it really takes years to cut down to 15 which is too far off. 

 

These forceful manipulations possibly will create an imprint in the sub-conscious mind as you said, which may takes years to eradicate the breathing pattern and involvement of the conscious mind.   But value the pros and cons, such interventions is still beneficial.

 

This kind of situation is not unlike drastic actions on indulgences such as over-eating, drinking, taking substances. 

 

Sometimes even experienced meditators need some conscious corrections in their methods, or try out new ways.

 

These considerations are similar to the concept of "Level of fire" 火候, when to actively engage and when to be passive, observant.

 

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

By meddling with genuine practices that were designed specifically in the way that they were - we’re making ‘meditation’ a sort of entertainment… a mostly wholesome and generally beneficial one, yes - but not a spiritual art.

 

And by saying that meditation is in fact this thing where we contrive our body and mind to generate pleasant experiences, we basically promote the decline of spirituality for the sake of YouTube likes.

 

As someone who’s been in an apparently genuine tradition, Knutson should know better. 
 

 

Basically this is my issue with the whole modern use of terminology. It is little more than creating participation trophies in the form of redefining titles or  practices to induce experiences because you want people to stick around. For someone who knows no better, thats one thing...but for someone of lineage...they should

 

It doesn't help anyone long term, and as outlined by you, can actually hurt progress

 

Thank you for providing the example.

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

When talking to most people with a passing interest in this stuff I say ‘meditative practice’… for me this term works ok. When I say meditation - generally (unless I’m mocking) I mean the state of meditative absorption. But I only really say it amongst people that understand what I mean.

 

But that’s not so important, I don’t think  

 

The reason I take issues with the term (and others) is the very confusing situations that arise all around...See below

 

Person A: "I had a kundalini awakening"

 

Shadow : "Oh, tell me about it"

 

 Person A " I had the heat move up my back back and into my head and then I started seeing things, then I couldn't sleep"

 

Shadow: "Thats not kundalini"

 

Person A "Proceeds to have an absolute fit of rage"

 

Shadow "Sigh"

 

The thing is...if it was a rare occurrence, that'd be ok...except it isn't.

 

Bastardisation of terminology (and culture) has become the norm, and actually, using terms in the way they were intended become the exception to the rule. So countless situations like the above arise...and you end up with a lot of delusional folk, a few angry ones, a few sad ones...

 

and then...there's me  

 

 

[freeform]

18 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I still think a certain level of contrivances or deliberate stuff are necessary in some stages.  Let say I am having 20 breaths a minute.  It is useful to simulate meditative breathing by manipulation to cut down to 15 per minute, in a few months. 

Yeah you’re right.

 

but we should be aware that because breath is such a sensitive thing and so intimately connected with the mind, any contrivance (even if useful) will create a ‘blockage’ outside of conscious awareness.

 

For me - it’s 1% contrived breathing - 99% awareness.

 

I would not recommend contrived breathing as a practice for months on end. Maybe for the first few minutes of an hour’s practice… maybe once in a while you spend time on stretching the lungs and diaphragm… But the aim is to free things up mechanically only to allow the awareness into the ‘blind spots’ of the breathing body… or to stretch a habitually tight diaphragm etc.

 

[edit] - sometimes it’s like showing your body a new breathing pattern (such as reverse breathing)… so you contrive it once in a while - once the required inner process starts, the body kinda ‘gets it’ - and it will start reverse breathing by itself at just the right time, in just the right way, with no wilfulness needed.

 

Once our awareness is fully absorbed in the breath, we don’t need contrivance at all! We’ll sit and absorb into the breath - and all these breathing patterns will come on spontaneously of their own accord - no forcing, no contriving, not even needing to decide the breathing pattern to use… everything from reverse breathing, to breath holds, to bellows breathing, to embryonic breathing happen of their own accord.

 

You know how when you sigh and the body automatically takes a biiiig, full breath - so big and so full that it would be difficult to contrive it if you tried - yet it’s relaxed, unforced, easy, natural and pleasant - this is what happens once you’re able to absorb awareness into the breathing body. 
 

Non- contrivance is a skill in itself. Once you’re able to start absorbing your awareness into the breath, you’ll meet all the subconscious patterns and blockages stored there. It’s almost impossible not to contrive, hold or interfere with the breath in some way. It takes time and patient practice.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by freeform

[freeform]

17 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Person A: "I had a kundalini awakening"

 

Shadow : "Oh, tell me about it"

 

 Person A " I had the heat move up my back back and into my head and then I started seeing things, then I couldn't sleep"

 

Shadow: "Thats not kundalini"

 

Person A "Proceeds to have an absolute fit of rage"

 

Shadow "Sigh"

A recurring conversation for me too 😂

 

People find all kinds of strange ways to feel ‘special’…

 

The ones that stand out for me are the people that feel special for some inner problem… some disease or mental health issue or a qi deviation.

 

When you take out the ‘specialness’ of the affliction - it’s like pulling the rug from under them… 

 

wait you’re saying that my kundalini syndrome is just yin depletion and false heat rising as a result of habitual stress!?! And it’s not because I’ve tapped some special spiritual thing inside me?!

 

That’s a painful thing to have to hear if your identity is somehow entwined in this affliction.

 

Whenever self-identification is knocked back, it’s psychologically really painful. And on top of that you still have actual affliction too!
 

That identification was a plaster that held back some inner pain or fear or feeling of inadequacy - hence the resulting anger.

 

It’s not the person’s fault. They’re doing the best they can to ‘self-medicate’ away the feeling of some internal conflict.

 

Once you start to see that all these self-aggrandising behaviours are rooted in a deep sense of fear or inadequacy, it’s hard to feel anything but compassion for people in the midst of it.

 

Especially if you’ve worked through similar patterns in yourself.

[exorcist_1699]

In fact ,raise any idea or intention to  initialize qi  , to empty the mind, to visualize something or  to expect something great , whatever and however it is that most meditations try to do  , are not  okay  ; they all are opposite to  Zen's requirement of nourishing   a  "  no-Mind from nowhere " , and unable to do that means all those efforts in varied meditations will definitely  fall to  attachments  to forms, steps,  statuses , expectations that  block people from attaining the  Buddha Mind  ( Taoism calls it  "Cosmic Heart " ('天心')  ) . In order to   overcome such  difficulty  , Zen provides many methods, here I only introduce two :  ( see picture below , showing  a series of  ideas )

 

At :

A) Chop your idea of  raising qi,  emptying the mine ..etc  right at the initial stage that the idea not fully formed..

 

Examples :  When an apostle tried to leave the room , the sifu called him back and asked what  it is   ;  Sifu passed a candle to the apostle , when he tried to receive it , the sifu extinguished the fire..etc

 

 or

 

B).  Situate your mind in between two ideas ( one already disappeared, but the new one not yet arisen )  , place of nowhere,  and  ' sustain '  it  .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

In fact ,raise any idea or intention to  initialize qi  , to empty the mind, to visualize something or  to expect something great , whatever and however it is that most meditations try to do  , are not  okay  ; they all are opposite to  Zen's requirement of nourishing   a  "  no-Mind from nowhere " , and unable to do that means all those efforts in varied meditations will definitely  fall to  attachments  to forms, steps,  statuses , expectations that  block people from attaining the  Buddha Mind  ( Taoism calls it  "Cosmic Heart " ('天心')  ) . In order to   overcome such  difficulty  , Zen provides many methods, here I only introduce two :  ( see picture below , showing  a series of  ideas )

 

 

Is it easier for Zen when attaining the Buddha Mind when it is the only or major milestone?  While Taoist's Xing cultivation occupies at most 50% of the cultivation.  Ming cultivation most often uses all sort of methods to concentrate, initialize Chi, empty the mind, directing the movement of Chi, infuse Chi with Shen, big and small orbiting, visualisation and many others.   It is not possible start from no mind from no where.  In contrary participation of the conscious mind is required though a very minor extent.

 

As to Zen methods in general, I think over the ages, there are many masters familiar with both and adopting each other's method and theories easily.

 

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

17 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Is it easier for Zen when attaining the Buddha Mind when it is the only or major milestone?  While Taoist's Xing cultivation occupies at most 50% of the cultivation.  Ming cultivation most often uses all sort of methods to concentrate, initialize Chi, empty the mind, directing the movement of Chi, infuse Chi with Shen, big and small orbiting, visualisation and many others.   It is not possible start from no mind from no where.  In contrary participation of the conscious mind is required though a very minor extent.

 

 

Zen's  is  the most likely way in Buddhist cultivation to attain the Buddha Mind , others are unlikely .

Taoist ways mainly rely  on accumulation of  qi and jing , good quality of them that you can retain makes attainment of  an emptied mind much easier . So it does not depend so heavily on the mind's own effort as the Buddhist way does .  In this sense , Zen's criticism on Taoist attachment to qi is only partly  true .

Edited October 18, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[Giles]

On 24/09/2022 at 5:04 PM, forestofemptiness said:

This is the most Daobums things I've come across in a while: experiential, "hacking," applicable to multiple forms of meditation, seems effective. 

 

From Forrest Knutson, a kriyaban. 

 

 

 

You may be interested to learn that he published a new book about a year ago entitled Mastering Meditation: Eight Steps From Beginner to Adept.

 

 

I've just bought the Kindle version and started reading it.

 

So far, so good, although I feel that he has a tenuous grasp of science at best and no expertise whatsoever in medical statistics.