Seven Steps to Deep Meditation

[Vajra Fist]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

Pa Auk emphasises both Jhanna and Vipassana… each stage of Jhanna is investigated with the insight of Vipassana.

 

At least that was what I got from my brief time there.

 

They also go heavily into the kasinas  as entry points into absorption.

 

Yes, of course I'm not saying they don't have vipassana. It's just they emphasise samatha and jhana a lot more than other Burmese 'dry insight' traditions.

 

Incidentally, I've had some interactions with Pa Auk graduates - Beth Upton in particular - who was a monastic for a decade there. I have incredible respect for the way they approach the dharma.

 

I do think though that it is a very heavy duty approach, especially for a non-monastic, and that approach might not even be necessary in the grand scheme of things. 

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Yes, of course I'm not saying they don't have vipassana. It's just they emphasise samatha and jhana a lot more than other Burmese 'dry insight' traditions.

 

Incidentally, I've had some interactions with Pa Auk graduates - Beth Upton in particular - who was a monastic for a decade there. I have incredible respect for the way they approach the dharma.

 

I do think though that it is a very heavy duty approach, especially for a non-monastic, and that approach might not even be necessary in the grand scheme of things. 

 

Beth is someone worth talking to  and very generous with her knowledge

Edited October 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Creation]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Do you see a problem with equating arrival at a destination with the means and manners used to get there...not only are they not the same thing, one is a process, the other is a product

You appear to be insisting that your usage of the term meditation is the only valid one, or you have missed my point entirely. 

 

The point I am trying to make is that it really makes no difference if you want to call the destination meditation and the means mental training, vs calling the destination samadhi and the means meditation, as long as you are clear on what terms are being used how.  

 

Actually, I do have a bit of a preference: I don't particularly care for using meditation to mean the state you arrive at, given it's manifold uses in common parlance. I'd prefer to reserve the technical terms jhana/dhyana and samadhi (depending on the lineage) for that.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Creation

[Vajra Fist]

.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

As @freeformmentioned, wisdom is actually a siddhi

Yeah - at it’s most fundamental, it’s constant, direct insight into the nature of all cause and effect.

 

You become like a walking Yi Jing oracle

 

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Creation said:

You appear to be insisting that your usage of the term meditation is the only valid one, or you have missed my point entirely. 

I think the issue is that the more we muddy terms, the less distinctions we have, the more the arts lose out.

 

In almost all pseudo-spiritual books you get the obligatory sentence:

 

”ancient cultures called this prana, qi, orgone, hara, kundalini, shakti, ectoplasm, mesmerism…” etc etc.

 

This attitude pervades - it’s ok I guess when it’s basically entertainment - but it’s a real shame that it‘s done in a more specialised arena where people actually dedicated a lot of time and effort into it.

 

Saying something is ‘deep meditation’ when in reality it has little to do with either the state or the practice is just a sign of the devolution of the arts.

 

You know those CSI type dramas… they’re fine, they’re entertaining… but imagine that after some time real crime scene investigators started to use terms and ideas and concept from the drama - coz you know it’s more popular with the public…

 

For me it’s not about changing what other people say or do. It’s more about drawing a line in the sand and explicitly marking a distinction among my peers and people interested.

 

Im not gonna be writing in letters trying to change what people say! I don’t think Shadow_self is either 

[Shadow_self]

27 minutes ago, Creation said:

You have either missed my point or are insisting that your usage of the term meditation is the only valid one.

I am saying that the manner in which I am using the term is the way in which it is originally intended to be used. So yes I am saying it is the only valid one. And Ill explain why I am saying it

 

See below

 

Quote

 

The point I am trying to make is that it really makes no difference if you want to call the destination meditation and the means calm abiding, vs calling the destination samadhi and the means meditation, as long as you are clear on what terms are being used how.  

 

Well it kind of does....words have meaning. In the spiritual path a misunderstanding is not as simple as correction, it can be detrimental. So i take issue with anyone using that term in a manner other than it was intended. Nobody has any real right to start redefining it

 

For a start, meditation cannot arise as a result of one process, it takes several and the results of each one have to synchronise for it to happen. So it is almost as if its a recipe that requires the all of the right ingredient in the right amount at the right time

 

When you start confusing process and product do you know what it leads to

 

Let me give you an example

 

Sit and do this specific practice (process) until a sign arises....lets say its a red light (product)

 

Vs

 

Sit and imagine a red light (product), and that is your practice (process)

 

Do you see the problem?

 

He can call it whatever he wants, but it isn't meditation. That word is taken and has a meaning already. Confusing people because he doesn't want to use the right terms is his issue

 

I hope that clears up that point?

 

Now, I also now need to correct the misuse of the term Samadhi

 

Samadhi is also known as Tai Ding is Daoist terminolgy... it is focused concentration. It is one method of several that need to be used.  It falls under the category of sitting practice

 

Calling Samadhi the product and meditation the process is not only mixing up the two....it is placing Samadhi on a pedestal. It is only one of several ingredients

 

23 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah - at it’s most fundamental, it’s constant, direct insight into the nature of all cause and effect.

 

You become like a walking Yi Jing oracle

 

 

This is almost verbatim how its been explained to me  

 

No more sticks or rituals required after a certain point 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Creation]

@Shadow_self I'm puzzled by your response. 

 

Words do indeed have meanings. Kindly look up the term meditation in the dictionary. Let me know what it says. This is what you are comparing to to see how appropriate it is to translate a term for another language. 

 

Technical terms in the language the techniques were originally practiced in also have meanings. Sometimes different lineages use the same word differently. Kindly look up the eight limbs of Yoga and let me know what the highest limb is. (The video in the OP is a Hindu Yoga practitioner). 

[Creation]

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

Saying something is ‘deep meditation’ when in reality it has little to do with either the state or the practice is just a sign of the devolution of the arts.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I suppose I'm willing to give him a pass on calling it "deep meditation" because he's doing the YouTube game and know his target audience and how deep their experiences in sitting practice have been so far, and that is the benchmark for comparison. I also have reason to be confident he has experienced actual meditation by your definition, so it's not like he doesn't know there is something deeper.  I saw a video where he explicitly discusses that the signs you are in "deep meditation" as he is calling it are nowhere near what it means to be in real samadhi.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Creation

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Creation said:

I also have reason to be confident he has experienced actual meditation by your definition, so it's not like he doesn't know there is something deeper. 

Well then he’s even more of a scoundrel than I first thought! 
 

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

While all monks practice some form of meditation - for most it’s just one of the required chores in their day something that gets in the way of scrolling through Facebook on their smartphones.

 

A very pernicious term indeed 😉

Edited October 13, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

A very pernicious term indeed 😉

Meditation in monasteries = a seated nap in many cases. 

A skill that’s not without merit I have to say 

[Mango]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

Meditation in monasteries = a seated nap in many cases. 

Sleeping is not a form of meditation. It must be considered to do some deep breathing exercises too.

[freeform]

19 minutes ago, Mango said:

Sleeping is not a form of meditation. It must be considered to do some deep breathing exercises too.

“That wasn’t snoring it was a super advanced mantra!”

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

@Shadow_self I'm puzzled by your response. 

 

You shouldn't bereally...I dont think I could have been clearer in my assertion

1 hour ago, Creation said:

 

Words do indeed have meanings. Kindly look up the term meditation in the dictionary. Let me know what it says. This is what you are comparing to to see how appropriate it is to translate a term for another language. 

 

I have literally spent the entire thread explaining how these terms are detached from their intended meaning

 

And you now want me to go and look up a western dictionary....Sigh.

 

Heres a better idea....go and ask an accomplished teacher with verifiable siddhi what meditation means...see what response you get. Once you have that, write it down verbatim. Following that, contrast it with dictionary definitions available

 

Then hopefully you will no longer be #1 be puzzled by my response and #2 suggest anyone look up the dictionary definition of meditation

1 hour ago, Creation said:

Technical terms in the language the techniques were originally practiced in also have meanings. Sometimes different lineages use the same word differently. Kindly look up the eight limbs of Yoga and let me know what the highest limb is. (The video in the OP is a Hindu Yoga practitioner). 

 

I am really not too interested in Patanjalis categorial use of the term.

 

Look at the etymology of the term...and what it refers to practically.

 

In each tradition it is very obvious that Samadhi is referring to focused concentration.

 

Its clear enough to anyone with the developments, or a teacher with the developments. Focused concentration proper leads to a building of the substance which in turn is one of the factors needed to enter into a meditative state

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Sleeping is not a form of meditation. It must be considered to do some deep breathing exercises too.

 

I prefer "tossing and turning" otherwise known as spontaneous qigong.

[Creation]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Heres a better idea

 

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I am really not too interested

_/\_ Best wishes to you

Edited October 13, 2022 by Creation

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Creation said:

 

 

That's what I thought. Best wishes to you.

 

Somehow I don't believe it is.

 

A rather convenient way to dodge the origin of the term point though.

 

Best wishes to you too  

[Mango]

19 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I prefer "tossing and turning" otherwise known as spontaneous qigong.

I would add deep breathing to make the process complete.

[liminal_luke]

@Shadow_self has recommended stillness as a method of cultivation.  It's hard to do while sitting so thank goodness for sleep paralysis.

Edited October 14, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Master Logray]

I think for laymen, mindfulness is meditation or something that is similar, which can be easily lumped together and be forgotten.  While @freeform is speaking on a professional sense.   For this forum, it would be useful to have a comparatively common understanding of the term meditation, and roughly acknowledge its approximate boundaries.

 

My understanding, meditation is a set of mental techniques to reach desired mental states.  While mental techniques to achieve physical, intellectual, emotional... states should not be included, otherwise it can encompass too many human activities.

 

 

 

 

[freeform]

So I watched a few of Knutson’s videos - just because some friends here like him…

 

But he just waves red flag after red flag in my opinion. 
 

In one video he explains how we must break each traditional method down to its building blocks - keep the essential and discard the unnecessary…

 

(what every single self-appointed guru says!)

 

In another video he talks about how when yogis talk about sensing their spine, what they’re actually sensing is the vagus nerve in front of the spine…

 

( I can physically wiggle each individual vertebra independent of the others… is that still my vagus nerve?)

 

In another video he explains how magnesium is key to meditation…

 

(it’s not - it’s key to relaxation - which is what he’s really teaching with this HRV stuff)

 

The issue is that in my younger years, this stuff would’ve really appealed to me!

 

using science as authority… technological shortcuts… cutting out the non-essential… friendly dude teaching simplified stuff with quick results… sign me up!

 

But now I know just how foolish this is.

 

By cutting out what we consider ‘non-essential’, we’re saying that we understand these things much better than the traditions that created them.

 

The issue is that often, what we consider non-essential serves a purpose way down the causality chain - somewhere we haven’t reached yet - and now, probably never will because we’ve cut off as ‘non-essential’ the causes that will lead us there.

 

For instance - yes if you contrive and manipulate your breath to simulate the long, relaxed breath that a meditator would have - you will get some experiences. (About 2 breaths a minute is the target in that case - not 4 to 7)

 

They may be great experiences. They may even sound a lot like meditation. And you might even get them much quicker than simply being aware of the breath and turning off all contrivance layer by layer…

 

You might get experiences years before someone following the traditional method!

 

But it’s foolish to think that those attained masters at the head of these traditions didn’t realise this!

 

Generating an inner experience does not transform you. 
 

Using contrived action will not lead you to rabbit marrow and black liver!
 

(Sorry - and in-joke for Awaken fans )

 

…It won’t lead to Spirit, it won’t lead to Soul.

 

This is the essence of spiritual practice - to allow your soul and your spirit, to (layer by layer) transform you into a ‘spiritual being’… (or whatever the buddhist equivalent would be).

 

Incidentally - I had to spend several years ‘undoing’ the patterns built by contrived breathing practices - which at the time created some really blissful experiences. And I mean years of hard work - just to get to baseline - so I could start again from the ground up.

 

By meddling with genuine practices that were designed specifically in the way that they were - we’re making ‘meditation’ a sort of entertainment… a mostly wholesome and generally beneficial one, yes - but not a spiritual art.

 

And by saying that meditation is in fact this thing where we contrive our body and mind to generate pleasant experiences, we basically promote the decline of spirituality for the sake of YouTube likes.

 

As someone who’s been in an apparently genuine tradition, Knutson should know better. 
 

——

 

And probably worth repeating that this doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad person.

 

It doesn’t mean that I think he should be stopped.

 

I believe in personal responsibility.

 

By expressing these things in a somewhat public space and amongst people with similar interests, I’m hoping there will be some that read this and see that there’s another perspective…

 

Its a little something to counteract the allure of ‘optimised for modern people… stripped of the non-essential’ type mentality

 

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

My understanding, meditation is a set of mental techniques to reach desired mental states.

I don’t think we need to reach a consensus. It really depends on your teacher or tradition - just use what they use.

 

For me, creating distinctions (rather than just focusing on similarities or points of agreement) helps to sharpen our understanding of these arts.

 

My aim isn’t to make everyone use my definition - it’s create a point that brings to light different perspectives.

 

When talking to most people with a passing interest in this stuff I say ‘meditative practice’… for me this term works ok. When I say meditation - generally (unless I’m mocking) I mean the state of meditative absorption. But I only really say it amongst people that understand what I mean.

 

But that’s not so important, I don’t think  

[Creation]

@freeform appreciate your nuanced perspective, as always.

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

The issue is that in my younger years, this stuff would’ve really appealed to me!

Did you notice he is also into Huna and NLP?

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Creation said:

Did you notice he is also into Huna and NLP?

yes I did! 
 

That’s the other stereotypical bucket of nonsense - that effectively says “if only I combine this technology with that technology and a bit of this other technology - then it’ll be 3X more powerful!”

 

It’s a common adolescent-level understanding of how these things work. Something I’ve been through in my younger years!

 

The more special ingredients we throw in the stew the better it’ll be, right?

 

The more supplements I take the higher my performance will soar!

 

The more transmissions I get - the more I’ll evolve…

 

The more books I read, the smarter I’ll get…

 

Etc etc etc.

 

The alluring thing is that it’s super self-gratifying. You feel like a kind of special Indiana Jones type character that managed to find all these disparate hidden secrets that you (and only you) can combine together for ultimate power!

 

If we’re honest with ourselves - and genuinely strive for excellence and are prepared to continually be humbled - then we’d discover that a lot of these red flags are the result of this drive towards ‘self’ gratification.

Wanting to be the special one - the clever one - the one that finds the shortcut - the originator of a brand new system - the one that people can look up to… this is at the base of what drives this sort of behaviour in my opinion.

We all have this within us.
 

It’s understandable that we’re drawn to generating status for ourselves… It’s one of the most important and powerful drives we have!

 

It’s just that, as spiritual cultivators - we really should be able to rise above this game… at least try to! Otherwise there is no chance of attaining spirit