Bruce Frantzis interview

[Vajra Fist]

 For anyone interested in him or his system, he did a fairly wide ranging interview with Guru Viking.

 

Personally I made it about ten minutes into it. Something about how he intuited Advaita Vedanta as a teenager or how his IQ was sky high, just made me feel like I was listening to Donald Trump.

 

Anyway, he has an impressive resume. So worth a listen for some.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

10 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 For anyone interested in him or his system, he did a fairly wide ranging interview with Guru Viking.

 

Personally I made it about ten minutes into it. Something about how he intuited Advaita Vedanta as a teenager or how his IQ was sky high, just made me feel like I was listening to Donald Trump.

 

Anyway, he has an impressive resume. So worth a listen for some.

 

 

(Bold emphasis mine)

 

Your characterization of him is an understatement and Guru Viking could seek better interviewees than this bully and charlatan.

[Timul20]

I know nothing about Bruce except from what I learned from listening to him speak during the interview, which is more of a monologue really.

 

I have to say he really did come across as a massive egotist, somebody who glorifies violence and possibly, a fantasist, certainly massively prone to self aggrandising exaggeration. If I were Steve I would have thought twice about putting this episode out but on reflection I think he was right to do so because the end product is likely to deter people from seeking any sort of relationship with Bruce.

 

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, Timul20 said:

I know nothing about Bruce except from what I learned from listening to him speak during the interview, which is more of a monologue really.

 

I have to say he really did come across as a massive egotist, somebody who glorifies violence and possibly, a fantasist, certainly massively prone to self aggrandising exaggeration. If I were Steve I would have thought twice about putting this episode out but on reflection I think he was right to do so because the end product is likely to deter people from seeking any sort of relationship with Bruce.

 

 

 

 

He had Bruce's student Paul Cavel on there a couple of years ago. And he came across pretty well, apart from a few weird conversational ticks. 

 

But yes, if I ever had any inclination to learn from Bruce's material before, I now have none whatsoever.

 

Not everyone who he interviews has to be awakened in some way. But of all those Steve has interviewed, Bruce certainly comes across as one of the least so.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[searcher7977]

For any future readers, I wanted to counterpoint the above views by saying Bruce Frantzis's methods have been well respected by many members here in the past. In fact, the past member's views were the reason I purchased "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" as my first qigong book.  

As an example, I just finished rereading joeblast's and pietro's breathing thread, who immensely benefited from BKF techniques. Likewise, Ya Mu, or Michael Lomax of Stillness-Movement, also spoke about him as a peer, jokingly dividing the territories and saying "[Bruce has already claimed the West of the United States]." Further, articles have been written, and I've read here on the forum, about how BKF would enter these tai chi tournaments in China as a foreigner, and win! Unheard of in his time. As a last example, one of his past students has wrote about healing her bipolar disorder through BKF dissolving method and (and some tai chi).

 

Anecdotally, I have heard BKF seems cold. However, I have personal experience with his online methods, and he has never bullied or talked down to anyone there nor in his materials. In fact, in his energy gates book, when he is describing a qigong he thinks has been very harmful, he refused to mention the name out of respect for their lineage. He just described how his process works, why it is correct, and how it differs from that lineage. 

 

He was certainly not regarded as a charlatan in the past, nor is he regarded as one in the present. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by searcher7977

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, searcher7977 said:

For any future readers, I wanted to counterpoint the above views by saying Bruce Frantzis's methods have been well respected by many members here in the past. In fact, the past member's views were the reason I purchased "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" as my first qigong book.  

As an example, I just finished rereading joeblast's and pietro's breathing thread, who immensely benefited from BKF techniques. Likewise, Ya Mu, or Michael Lomax of Stillness-Movement, also spoke about him as a peer, jokingly dividing the territories and saying "[Bruce has already claimed the West of the United States]." Further, articles have been written, and I've read here on the forum, about how BKF would enter these tai chi tournaments in China as a foreigner, and win! Unheard of in his time. As a last example, one of his past students has wrote about healing her bipolar disorder through BKF dissolving method and (and some tai chi).

 

Anecdotally, I have heard BKF seems cold. However, I have personal experience with his online methods, and he has never bullied or talked down to anyone there nor in his materials. In fact, in his energy gates book, when he is describing a qigong he thinks has been very harmful, he refused to mention the name out of respect for their lineage. He just described how his process works, why it is correct, and how it differs from that lineage. 

 

He was certainly not regarded as a charlatan in the past, nor is he regarded as one in the present. 

 

He is regarded as a charlatan by qualified people.

 

The only people who praised him never actually developed or learned proper internal development because sensations do not indicate progress.

 

You are essentially looking for five star reviews from Amazon by trying to defend Frantzis rather than listening to engineers and scholars who know what they're talking about, who has documented history of abuse and being schooled by actual teachers who beat him up for being a bully.

 

Those "victories" are also misinformation, but I'm reasonably certain you're not willing to do due diligence to investigate and research.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Earl Grey

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

He is regarded as a charlatan by qualified people.

 

The only people who praised him never actually developed or learned proper internal development because sensations do not indicate progress.

 

You are essentially looking for five star reviews from Amazon rather than listening to engineers and scholars who know what they're talking about by trying to defend Frantzis, who has documented history of abuse and being schooled by actual teachers who beat him up for being a bully.

 

Those "victories" are also misinformation, but I'm reasonably certain you're not willing to do due diligence to investigate and research.

 

He spent a good deal of time here in Santa Fe NM years ago. He was seen as an aggressive bully who charged a lot of money. From what I know he found a money source in Marin County that gave him what he wanted.

Edited October 16, 2022 by ralis

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

He spent a good deal of time here in Santa Fe NM years ago. He was seen as an aggressive bully who charged a lot of money. From what I know he found a money source in Marin County that gave him what he wanted.

 

What I don't understand is from the three individuals I talked with who either beat him up or witnessed him being beaten for his bullying and megalomania, he never learns his lesson and continues acting the same way in spite of very unsubtle and stern warnings to shape up or ship out.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Earl Grey

[searcher7977]

54 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Those "victories" are also misinformation, but I'm reasonably certain you're not willing to do due diligence to investigate and research.

 

You would be incorrect, for the second time, about me. 

 

I spent probably 10-20hrs reading on his methods from various sources, particularly this forum. Short of emailing teachers of other systems, and asking them what they thought of BKF's system, I did all I could reasonably do. I literally brought up posts that were 10-15 yrs old, how can you then claim I am not willing to do due diligence? My post was literally the results of due diligence! I don't think I am expected to travel to Sante Fe and conducted my own interviews.

 

If you would share these sources, I would certainly read them. I have provided at least some basis for my claims, while you have not. You would be disagreeing with joeblast, pietro, and Ya Mu. From what they have written, they did more than their due diligence as it is.
 

Earl Grey, your posts used to be more compassionate and friendly. I've read a lot of topics by you as well, and benefited from your words. 

 

Either way, you are incorrect about me, again.

Edited October 16, 2022 by searcher7977

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, searcher7977 said:

 

You would be incorrect, for the second time, about me. 

 

I spent probably 10-20hrs reading on his methods from various sources, particularly this forum. Short of emailing teachers of other systems, and asking them what they thought of BKF's system, I did all I could reasonably do. I literally brought up posts that were 10-15 yrs old, how can you then claim I am not willing to do due diligence? My post was literally the results of due diligence! I don't think I am expected to travel to Sante Fe and conducted my own interviews.

 

If you would share these sources, I would certainly read them. I have provided at least some basis for my claims, while you have not. You would be disagreeing with joeblast, pietro, and Ya Mu. From what they have written, they did more than their due diligence as it is.
 

Earl Grey, your posts used to be more compassionate and friendly. I've read a lot of topics by you as well, and benefited from your words. 

 

Either way, you are incorrect about me, again.

k

[liminal_luke]

Those interested in a positive take on Bruce Frantzis's methods might look up Jane Alexander (SF Jane) who claimed to have cured herself of serious mental illness using his dissolving technique.  I think she wrote about it in her book, Possessing Me.  Jane used to be a Bum here but I'm not sure if it's possible to find her postings now.

[searcher7977]

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Those interested in a positive take on Bruce Frantzis's methods might look up Jane Alexander (SF Jane) who claimed to have cured herself of serious mental illness using his dissolving technique.  I think she wrote about it in her book, Possessing Me.  Jane used to be a Bum here but I'm not sure if it's possible to find her postings now.

 

https://roguetaoist.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/hypercompression-my-meditation-method/

[Shadow_self]

I tended to shy away from Bruce's work...no particular reason, I just never had any attraction towards it

 

That being said

 

A teacher can be a complete ass and still have a potent method. I know enough stories about teachers doing all sorts of shady crap...including ones who are near worshipped by people on this board (and others)

 

A teacher can also have a potent method and be incapable of transmitting it correctly...Whether that be ego, poor understanding, a a bad personality or just no teaching ability whatsoever.

 

I do not know if either are true about the man in question, but that is worth pointing out regardless

 

Incidentally, a quick google search brings up 20 year old threads (thats not a typo)....and he doesnt seem to have had a good reputation then...

 

Make what you will of that.

[Timul20]

5 hours ago, searcher7977 said:

For any future readers, I wanted to counterpoint the above views by saying Bruce Frantzis's methods have been well respected by many members here in the past. In fact, the past member's views were the reason I purchased "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" as my first qigong book.  

As an example, I just finished rereading joeblast's and pietro's breathing thread, who immensely benefited from BKF techniques. Likewise, Ya Mu, or Michael Lomax of Stillness-Movement, also spoke about him as a peer, jokingly dividing the territories and saying "[Bruce has already claimed the West of the United States]." Further, articles have been written, and I've read here on the forum, about how BKF would enter these tai chi tournaments in China as a foreigner, and win! Unheard of in his time. As a last example, one of his past students has wrote about healing her bipolar disorder through BKF dissolving method and (and some tai chi).

 

Anecdotally, I have heard BKF seems cold. However, I have personal experience with his online methods, and he has never bullied or talked down to anyone there nor in his materials. In fact, in his energy gates book, when he is describing a qigong he thinks has been very harmful, he refused to mention the name out of respect for their lineage. He just described how his process works, why it is correct, and how it differs from that lineage. 

 

He was certainly not regarded as a charlatan in the past, nor is he regarded as one in the present. 

Possibly I'm being over judgemental.   We are all multi dimensional beings and because Bruce exhibits behaviour I find challenging doesn't mean he doesn't have valuable lessons to teach. 

[RobB]

Those interested in BKFs lineage might enjoy some of the material Alex Kozma has been putting out in his Martial Cultivation journal (https://lineofintent.com/product-category/martial-cultivation-journal/) and his Flying Monk Youtube channel.

 

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

A teacher can be a complete ass and still have a potent method.

 

Ah, this debate again. I hate to once again use the theravada model, but awakening, as in stream entry, is defined by loosening of the three fetters. The first of which is seeing through the concept of self. Later, the seven defilement, like envy, greed, domineering etc also reportedly drop away.

 

One of the things that stood out to me from the interview above, was that Bruce has a very strong and obvious sense of self. He talks a lot about his own achievements.

 

I don't believe that someone can teach meditation without stream entry, or whatever equivalent there is in your own system. 

 

I wouldn't trust a guide to help me cross an ocean, who hasn't at least caught a glimpse of the other shore, and knows which general direction to face in.

 

That's not to say that his methods aren't beneficial. They have clearly helped many people restore their health. But in terms of walking a spiritual path, I wouldn't personally put my faith in Bruce Frantzis as a guide.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[EFreethought]

On 10/15/2022 at 12:03 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 For anyone interested in him or his system, he did a fairly wide ranging interview with Guru Viking.

 

Personally I made it about ten minutes into it. Something about how he intuited Advaita Vedanta as a teenager or how his IQ was sky high, just made me feel like I was listening to Donald Trump.

 

Anyway, he has an impressive resume. So worth a listen for some.

 

 

A big, burly monk came up to me, with tears in his eyes, he had never cried before in his life.

 

"Sir", he said - he had never called anybody "Sir" before. "Sir, there are a bunch of Buddhist dropouts on the Dao Bums bad-mouthing the amazing Bruce Frantzis."

 

I logged into the Dao Bums, and I asked my beautiful daughter to read the posts to me. The things people had written. It was a travesty, let me tell you. Sad!

 

I turned to masters who had been meditating for decades. I said, "Kundalini, seeker, monk, nun, enlightenment". They were amazed. They asked me, "How did you do that? Nobody has ever done that before."

 

I told them how smart I was. You see, my uncle was a master in Seattle. He pleased a woman in a diner once. He was Bruce Lee's real teacher, not that loser Yip Girl, most people do not know that.

Bruce is a wonderful friend of mine. He and I have a great time with the ladies, believe me. Many people are saying it, and they are saying it very strongly.

[EFreethought]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I tended to shy away from Bruce's work...no particular reason, I just never had any attraction towards it

 

That being said

 

A teacher can be a complete ass and still have a potent method. I know enough stories about teachers doing all sorts of shady crap...including ones who are near worshipped by people on this board (and others)

 

A teacher can also have a potent method and be incapable of transmitting it correctly...Whether that be ego, poor understanding, a a bad personality or just no teaching ability whatsoever.

 

I do not know if either are true about the man in question, but that is worth pointing out regardless

 

Incidentally, a quick google search brings up 20 year old threads (thats not a typo)....and he doesnt seem to have had a good reputation then...

 

Make what you will of that.

 

Now for a more serious answer. I heard from my qigong instructor that BF seriously injured a few people's knees at some tai chi groups in Taiwan. BF's response was that if they are martial artists they should expect that sort of thing.

 

Okay, maybe you should be aware of somebody kicking you, but you can kick someone in the legs hard enough so they feel it without seriously injuring them.

 

Then after he got back to the US, the masters in Taiwan called up someone in the US (I think it was Waysun Liao) and told him to teach BF a lesson. I guess it didn't stick.

 

My instructor said he can only listen to BF for a few minutes before he has had enough.

 

 

 

[searcher7977]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Ah, this debate again. I hate to once again use the theravada model, but awakening, as in stream entry, is defined by loosening of the three fetters. The first of which is seeing through the concept of self. Later, the seven defilement, like envy, greed, domineering etc also reportedly drop away.

 

 

That's a very good point, thank you for the reminder. Do you know if there is some equivalent for ethical conduct in Taoism?

 

I know in yoga they have yamas and niyamas, which include friendliness and compassion. I read the Tao Te Ching has the 3 treasures: compassion, frugality, and modesty. But, I'm wondering if there is any more information on Taoist conduct. Do Taoist practices have an equivalent to stream entry, where defilements are eliminated? 

 

Reading some of the past posts mocking other people, belittling them, it seems directly at odds with ethics from any of those three schools. Hence my comments in a past thread, where people who were bullying others might not have cultivated and gotten as far as they should given how much they claim to have practiced. 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by searcher7977

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Ah, this debate again. I hate to once again use the theravada model, but awakening, as in stream entry, is defined by loosening of the three fetters. The first of which is seeing through the concept of self. Later, the seven defilement, like envy, greed, domineering etc also reportedly drop away.

 

One of the things that stood out to me from the interview above, was that Bruce has a very strong and obvious sense of self. He talks a lot about his own achievements.

 

I don't believe that someone can teach meditation without stream entry, or whatever equivalent there is in your own system. 

 

I wouldn't trust a guide to help me cross an ocean, who hasn't at least caught a glimpse of the other shore, and knows which general direction to face in.

 

That's not to say that his methods aren't beneficial. They have clearly helped many people restore their health. But in terms of walking a spiritual path, I wouldn't personally put my faith in Bruce Frantzis as a guide.

 

 

There are tonnes of "teachers" who haven't got stream entry regularly draining the pockets of individuals. I refrain from naming people here...but the signs are VERY clear.

 

But to the point. I never mentioned potent "spiritual" method?

 

I said potent method. Not every system is designed to take one to the depths of spirit...

 

The practices for neigong can be taken to a high level by a complete and total asshole...hence my point. Once you start doing neidan...well yeah that "assholeness" is going to get in the way at a certain point.

 

Energy 101 - If you are an asshole, it doesn't stop you from building energy...It just makes you more of an asshole the more you build

 

Energetic development and spiritual development are not as tightly coupled as people would like to believe in the beginning...there is a junction point down the line however

 

This is one of the reasons I actually enjoy having a Buddhist teacher as well as one for neigong/neidan, as it forces a good balance of mind and body practices

 

If you arent dealing with your "BS" as fast as you are building energy...that's a nice recipe for problems imo

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, EFreethought said:

Taiwan called up someone in the US (I think it was Waysun Liao) and told him to teach BF a lesson. I guess it didn't stick.

This would be the fourth instance then.

 

He either doesn’t listen or never learns.

[鞏三孝]

If you listen to the first 50% of the interview you will know your ears a blessed with the tongue of a master! Of:

• Advaita Vedanta (he invented this method on his own...meditating for two hours a day as a boy..."I heard Maharashi was kind of a big deal in India")
• Chan Buddhism ("I even became a Chan Master for awhile")
• Jiu Jitsu
• Aikido
• Karate (the US government kidnapped him in Japan and forced him to teach a suicide squad???)
• Some secret Japanese Taoist priest sect? (So much a secret it hasn't any name)
• Pranayama Yoga
• Kriya Yoga (1 year locked in cave in India)
• Greek Catholicism ("me and my grandfather are a big deal in the Orthodox church in Greece.......")
• I-Kuan-Tao (inside of this:
  • Fighting to the death or maiming enemies too many times to count
  • Having sex with more than 1000 women (luckily in Scandinavia different women brought him for sex every day!!!)
  • Taoist ritual (bit strange because I-Kuan-Tao is different than Taoism but close enough hmm)
    • (never heard in Taiwan that I-Kuan-Tao is a fighting and sex ninja cult but okay, these are the deeeeep secrets)
• Taoist Nei-dan (one time meditated for one week without moving?)
• Tai chi chuan (Can cure disease worse than hepatitis but it is called hepatitits) 
• Pa kua chang
• Hsing Yi Chuan 
• Dzogchen
• Did I miss anything???
  • Stay online for the second 1/2 of the interview!!!!

 

So I was a little bit surprised he wasn't this man when I checked on his photo:

 

 

Even more he pushed a Turkish soldier from a locomotive at a top speed because the soldier was going to rape him, while other soldiers are raping 'everybody in the train', something to do with the Ottoman empire?  And the other soldiers didnt shoot him?

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by 鞏三孝

[freeform]

Frantzis is exhibiting the tell-tale results of practicing an ‘incomplete’ system.

 

I’ve seen this over and over again… People training some genuine methods and becoming complete caricatures of a human being.

 

Gary Clyman is the other well known one.

 

Yes if you increase qi, but have no character development or spiritual connection, you become…

 

a douchebag  

 

It’s very common! 
 

I’ve seen it LOTS in Asia.

 

People turn into these weird pompous characters that get obsessed by sex, money and status.
 

But not even in a sophisticated way - in like an over excited teenage boy on cocaine sort of way. It’s kinda funny to see actually.

 

Often have this spiritual or mystical persona that’s completely and very obviously ruled by this Dan Bilzerian wannabe lifestyle.

 

(some of the popular and well known teachers in Asia are (or also were) like this too… though it’s easier to hide this aspect to foreigners)

 

I don’t know his level of skill… (though it has to be said that there’s almost nothing ‘internal’ in Taiji competitions in Asia… just a weirdly un-athletic stand-up wrestling).

 

What matters to me, personally is inner development - transformation of oneself into one’s original spiritual nature…

 

What happens with incomplete systems is the opposite - powered-up devolution into one’s base nature.

 

[Wilhelm]

Bruce was my introduction to Qigong, and gave very detailed online instruction for physical movements which was great at the time.  Considering the options available at the time I'm really glad he was the guy I checked out first.

 

Then I read his book on sex and disappointed my next 3-4 partners (only partially the fault of Taoist Sexual Meditation™, but it was a hot minute till my psychology came back from some of those ideas 😂)

Edited October 17, 2022 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Bruce was my introduction to Qigong, and gave very detailed online instruction for physical movements which was great at the time.  Considering the options available at the time I'm really glad he was the guy I checked out first.

I’m assuming he must have at least some genuine skills and methods. 

Other contemporaries of his were certainly a bit more problematic in terms of the methods they teach.

 

But I guess you need to have slept with a 1000 expert concubines and had a stream of Scandinavian beauties come on to you, to really master his sexual techniques!