Iron body in a fight

[shaq420]

I have seen iron body demos which all look very convincing and I am sure they are. However I have a few concerns:

 

1. Could someone untrained in iron body produce the same results? For example, just tensing up your muscles upon impact.

 

2. how Practical is iron body in a fight? You aren’t sitting there getting ready to take a blow and hence changing your form to get ready for the blow.

[Wu Ming Jen]

A body made of iron could be an advantage in a fight. Tensing your muscles and creating resistance could guarantee injury or at least make any touch more harmful.

 

A body made of water could also be an advantage in a fight no resistance and nothing to land on.

 

When we combine hard and soft together. knowing when to be soft and when to be hard the ability to change, adapt, adjust slight details one can have a true advantage. It all ends up as useless garbage and speculation if we are not actually training. if interested in iron shirt do the work.

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, shaq420 said:

I have seen iron body demos which all look very convincing and I am sure they are. However I have a few concerns:

 

1. Could someone untrained in iron body produce the same results? For example, just tensing up your muscles upon impact.

No

 

9 hours ago, shaq420 said:

2. how Practical is iron body in a fight? You aren’t sitting there getting ready to take a blow and hence changing your form to get ready for the blow.

Very practical otherwise the training would not exist. These methods are not theoretical or speculative, they are solely for practical application.

[Neirong]

On 18/10/2022 at 11:53 PM, shaq420 said:

I have seen iron body demos which all look very convincing and I am sure they are. However I have a few concerns:

 

Link the demos, because most I have see online are scamgong and parlor tricks.

 

Refer to article

Hard daoist Qigong scam

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Neirong

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

Link the demos, because most I have see online are scamgong and parlor tricks.

 

Refer to article

Hard daoist Qigong scam

 

Quote

Breaking bricks on the head by Hammer or any part of the body is not dangerous. Hitting the head with a hammer without bricks would be lethal, but having multiple bricks shielding and spreading out impact force not. This scam aims at people who don't have even the most basic physics knowledge.

 

Quote

Walking on broken glass - big chunks of glass from bottles are not even remotely dangerous. The tiny particles you might find at home can make you bleed a lot and be painful.

Idk man you might just be a bit more hardcore than most folks 😂 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb (and as a rehab professional) and disagree with you here haha

[Neirong]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:05 PM, Wilhelm said:

Idk man you might just be a bit more hardcore than most folks 😂 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb (and as a rehab professional) and disagree with you here haha

 

When an untrained individual or skeptics who cannot feel chi can do the same thing without prior training and

replicate brutal Qigong demonstrations "only great masters do," only the densest and brainwashed can keep up the belief in the pipe dream.

 

By the way, the same is valid for many tai chi schools. Parlor trickery, unfortunately, is marketed and sold as a genuine internal art.

All this comes from a tiny brain of practitioners and a lack of ethics.

 

Scamgong is a viral disease, and people who endorse those "masters" are on the level of larvae worse than imps in energy realm.

 

Fake martial arts, fake neigong, fake spiritual development, see where it goes - growing a persona cult.

 

 

[Wilhelm]

6 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

When an untrained individual or skeptics who cannot feel chi can do the same thing without prior training and

replicate brutal Qigong demonstrations "only great masters do," only the densest and brainwashed can keep up the belief in the pipe dream.

 

By the way, the same is valid for many tai chi schools. Parlor trickery, unfortunately, is marketed and sold as a genuine internal art.

All this comes from a tiny brain of practitioners and a lack of ethics.

 

Scamgong is a viral disease, and people who endorse those "masters" are on the level of larvae worse than imps in energy realm.

 

Fake martial arts, fake neigong, fake spiritual development, see where it goes - growing a persona cult.

 

 

Edit: There's lots of videos explaining why what guys like Adam do isn't explainable by the use of external force - which is correct - but they're discounting the possibility that another mechanism is in play.

 

The Fajin Project releases one of these exposees every few months - one day they might go so far as to show up to a seminar or try the method themselves (as Fajin is reported to be attainable in as little as 3 years).

 

I'm not a martial artist so don't take my word for it but when I tried their seminar a few years ago all the seniors ragdolled me in a way that I couldn't prevent from bracing, pushing, or leaning as presumed in the above video.  They explained the Fajin mechanic quite clearly as well, and given the bit of Nei Gong I had done a few years ahead of the seminar I was able to experience 'doing' it in a small way.

 

So please excuse me for saying so but such videos are irrelevant as they're making incorrect assumptions (but no need to take my word for it - Adam and all his seniors have public classes)

Edited October 21, 2022 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

I actually agree with @Neirong - the vast majority of stuff you see like breaking bricks and bending spears with the throat - that’s all tricks.

 

Martial arts schools used to earn pocket money showing this kind of thing in market towns…

 

It became a kind of circus act performance where there’s a method involved in doing it… no inner skill necessary.

 

However, here’s a video from a student of one of the famous ‘scamgong’ teachers (as the ancient ‘semi-immortal’ ones call him) It shows genuine iron shirt at a basic level:

I imagine he didn’t actually train iron shirt methods - it’s probably just an extension of his level of Peng.
 

It can be taken further - but from what I’ve been told, actually impacts negatively on other aspects of the internals.

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

I actually agree with @Neirong - the vast majority of stuff you see like breaking bricks and bending spears with the throat - that’s all tricks.

I also agree with the spirit of exposing tricksters, but I disagree about the content of what was posted above. 

 

I'm a fan of the fellow in that video as a pretty rare example of someone who competes in MMA-style competition (on an amateur level I think) whose body's been through the YJJ process.  I can only think of one or two more who've entered similar competitions and they're all under the same teacher (though there's probably plenty more I'm unaware of).

Edited October 21, 2022 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I agree - was just responding to two points in the linked article that were a bit hyperbolic.

ohh ok - you mean the stuff like walking over glass and breaking bricks with your head…

 

often this too is a kind ‘method’… like developing thick skin on the soles of your feet over time… or using ‘special’ bricks and hitting them on a certain part of your skull that’s been slowly conditioned to take blows. This obviously takes some training and skill - it’s just not ‘iron shirt’ proper.

 

Quote

I can only think of one or two more who have and they're all under the same teacher.

oh really - I didn’t know about that.

I’m glad some are doing it, and putting their skill to the test.

[RobB]

I once trained with someone who had trained the iron shirt in our school to some level. He wasn't a particularly big guy but punching him felt a lot like how I would imagine punching a cow might feel. 

[freeform]

45 minutes ago, RobB said:

I once trained with someone who had trained the iron shirt in our school to some level. He wasn't a particularly big guy but punching him felt a lot like how I would imagine punching a cow might feel. 

I’m glad you only imagined punching a cow 😅

Edited October 21, 2022 by freeform

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

ohh ok - you mean the stuff like walking over glass and breaking bricks with your head…

 

often this too is a kind ‘method’… like developing thick skin on the soles of your feet over time… or using ‘special’ bricks and hitting them on a certain part of your skull that’s been slowly conditioned to take blows. This obviously takes some training and skill - it’s just not ‘iron shirt’ proper.

No argument here!  My objection was to the idea that such feats were attainable by "anyone with a basic understanding of physics".

 

Though bringing up this adjunct topic it makes me think of the guy they interviewed on the martial man who was capable of breaking melons with his index finger.  (Namely - that's impressive!  But also - why? )

Edited October 21, 2022 by Wilhelm

[RobB]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

I’m glad you only imagined punching a cow 😅

 

I felt bad, we're not supposed to visualise! (Note to self: punch real cow and report back)

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

the guy they interviewed on the martial man who was capable of breaking melons with his index finger.  (Namely - that's impressive!  But also - why? )

IMA practitioners have a hard time impressing the ladies

 

I remember in the U.K. there used to be this tv program called Mind Body & Kickass Moves (or something like that) - fun program.

There was this one guy on it, who’s training was to spin his arm very fast for a long time until his fist was completely engorged with blood - then he’d punch stuff with it…

 

The end result, after years of this, was that he had this one really big baseball mitt of a hand - all calloused up and barely functional beyond punching…

 

Impressive.. but also - why 😂

[Shadow_self]

On 19/10/2022 at 4:05 PM, Wilhelm said:

 

Idk man you might just be a bit more hardcore than most folks 😂 

I think the word you're looking for is confused  

 

Not uncommon for someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of this stuff

On 19/10/2022 at 4:05 PM, Wilhelm said:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb (and as a rehab professional) and disagree with you here haha

Definitely not the first person

 

On 21/10/2022 at 12:00 PM, Wilhelm said:

Edit: There's lots of videos explaining why what guys like Adam do isn't explainable by the use of external force - which is correct - but they're discounting the possibility that another mechanism is in play.

 

The Fajin Project releases one of these exposees every few months - one day they might go so far as to show up to a seminar or try the method themselves (as Fajin is reported to be attainable in as little as 3 years).

 

I'm not a martial artist so don't take my word for it but when I tried their seminar a few years ago all the seniors ragdolled me in a way that I couldn't prevent from bracing, pushing, or leaning as presumed in the above video.  They explained the Fajin mechanic quite clearly as well, and given the bit of Nei Gong I had done a few years ahead of the seminar I was able to experience 'doing' it in a small way.

 

So please excuse me for saying so but such videos are irrelevant as they're making incorrect assumptions (but no need to take my word for it - Adam and all his seniors have public classes)

Adam is as real as they come. He's one of the few people willing to actually teach YJJ mechanics openly to folk

Its very easy to tell who knows what they are talking about and who does not

 

Everyone's a skeptic until they have a chance to train with someone with internal development...they shut up fairly quickly then

 

On 21/10/2022 at 1:30 PM, freeform said:

I actually agree with @Neirong - the vast majority of stuff you see like breaking bricks and bending spears with the throat - that’s all tricks.

 

It certainly can be. But there are some as you know, who have these developments that really transcend what we typically label as "normal" 

 

When it comes to people who have actually developed beyond the basic level of human potential (hint here folks, Neigong/YJJ) then all bets are off and you're pretty much going to have to find another manner of discernment.

 

Occam's razor is a form of inductive bias after all. 

 

Also I agree with you, this looks like Peng (I say that with my limited understanding of it) 

 

On 21/10/2022 at 1:30 PM, freeform said:

 

Martial arts schools used to earn pocket money showing this kind of thing in market towns…

 

It became a kind of circus act performance where there’s a method involved in doing it… no inner skill necessary.

 

However, here’s a video from a student of one of the famous ‘scamgong’ teachers (as the ancient ‘semi-immortal’ ones call him) It shows genuine iron shirt at a basic level:

I imagine he didn’t actually train iron shirt methods - it’s probably just an extension of his level of Peng.
 

It can be taken further - but from what I’ve been told, actually impacts negatively on other aspects of the internals.

 

Lindsey Wei actually teaches something like this. Its not so much "iron shirt" as "body protection" using dao yin methods and breathing techniques...

 

Shes 31st Generation Longmen Pai (Dragons gate) oddly enough  This lineage seems to pop up everywhere

 

I cant speak on what shes teaching for this...

 

But I've seen her "Yang shen Fa" set, and if you have an understanding of certain "principles" you can see it works. The level to which it does though, is dependant on your own level of development  

 

 

On 21/10/2022 at 1:44 PM, Wilhelm said:

I also agree with the spirit of exposing tricksters, but I disagree about the content of what was posted above. 

The issue here is people applying a one size fits all approach.

 

As I mentioned above, when someones been through a certain degree of development, certain presuppositions aren't useful anymore, they actually block your perception

 

On 21/10/2022 at 3:20 PM, Wilhelm said:

No argument here!  My objection was to the idea that such feats were attainable by "anyone with a basic understanding of physics".

They arent, and you are correct

 

The false assumptions made above is whats known as a false cause fallacy.

 

It is the equivalent of shooting holes in a fence, then painting bullseyes around the holes. It is a common tactic used by people who don't understand logic

 

You know whats one good way to assess someones level of development? Check their understanding of causality.

You know what would be a good way to begin discerning what is true vs false here? An understanding of the mechanics

 

You know what this one has shown zero understanding of?  

[freeform]

I think their ‘ancient school’ is a pandemic baby… they didn’t quite have the chance to meet any genuine practitioners in person yet…

 

It feels to me that their ‘mastery’ comes from reading books, forum posts and watching videos…

 

I can recognise many elements they’ve taken from my writings here for example.

 

I suspect they don’t engage with me directly or answer technical questions from you @Shadow_self - because it’ll make all this immediately obvious.

[damdao]

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Lindsey Wei actually teaches something like this. Its not so much "iron shirt" as "body protection" using dao yin methods and breathing techniques...

 

Shes 31st Generation Longmen Pai (Dragons gate) oddly enough  This lineage seems to pop up everywhere

 

 

She teaches an Iron Shirt method from the Chunyangmen lineage called Dagong. It has three levels and the higher ones include strong body conditioning through strikes. First you hit yourself, after that a partner hits you and later you practices with the floor, walls, etc. The foundation of this training is a kind of dantian work and replenishment.

The Yangsheng training is another system (again in three levels) for health purposes, aiming at replenishing the three treasures.

Under certain conditions Dagong can be trained as a soft health preserving set of exercises.

It is a very ancient, effective and popular method among Wudang traditions, it trains qi response and fascia reaction to hitting.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, damdao said:

 

She teaches an Iron Shirt method from the Chunyangmen lineage called Dagong. It has three levels and the higher ones include strong body conditioning through strikes. First you hit yourself, after that a partner hits you and later you practices with the floor, walls, etc. The foundation of this training is a kind of dantian work and replenishment.

The Yangsheng training is another system (again in three levels) for health purposes, aiming at replenishing the three treasures.

Under certain conditions Dagong can be trained as a soft health preserving set of exercises.

It is a very ancient, effective and popular method among Wudang traditions, it trains qi response and fascia reaction to hitting.

 

Thanks for explaining it a lot better than I could  I don't train with Lindsey, but she was recommended to me by someone I trust

 

I only brought up her Longmen lineage as its a more commonly known one. I didnt mean to insinuate the particular set in question was from that lineage specifically

 

From what I've seen of the the Yang Shen Gong training...I liked it

[RobB]

1 hour ago, damdao said:

 

She teaches an Iron Shirt method from the Chunyangmen lineage called Dagong. 

Her book, The Valley Spirit, describes some of the experience of undergoing this training. Doesn't sound like much fun 🙂

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, RobB said:

Her book, The Valley Spirit, describes some of the experience of undergoing this training. Doesn't sound like much fun 🙂

 

In my own experience...working with the fascia rarely is 

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

I think their ‘ancient school’ is a pandemic baby… they didn’t quite have the chance to meet any genuine practitioners in person yet…

 

It feels to me that their ‘mastery’ comes from reading books, forum posts and watching videos…

 

I can recognise many elements they’ve taken from my writings here for example.

 

I suspect they don’t engage with me directly or answer technical questions from you @Shadow_self - because it’ll make all this immediately obvious.

I agree

 

I could see no reason why two people teaching would not want to demonstrate any understanding of anything in a public forum where people might actually be willing to work with them.

 

Unless they were afraid of something coming to light they would rather keep under the radar that is 

 

But I think @GSmaster knows he to be careful now. 

 

Looks like hes been suspended multiple times, banned , re-registered a new account under @XianGong and was banned AGAIN...and now he's back in his "final form" as @Neirong

 

I imagine the mods are noticing the patterns...