Nathan Brine Revised Material

[Shadow_self]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

It doesn't need to be told. Do you have any experience in ZZ? 

 

Well I was actually talking about Wuji.

 

Wuji and ZZ are not the same thing, they have different functions

 

I've spent quite a bit of time in Wuji, it is certainly not to build strong legs...it did build something else though  

Edited October 28, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Well I actually was talking about Wuji.

 

Wuji and ZZ are not the same thing, they have different functions

 

I've spent quite a bit of time in Wuji, it is certainly not to build strong legs...it did build something else though  

And what was that?

[Shadow_self]

Just now, Mango said:

And what was that?

 

Foundation

 

I think you will gain more from this explaination though  

 

32.00 - 37.00

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Yes, it is true to practice ZZ to prepare the body for more subtle training. What I am saying it wouldn't be a prerequisite for Taiji but it would help. Yes, I am saying that the purpose of wuji is to build strong legs more than anything else. If one has practiced ZZ for some time, one should have felt the strength of the legs change drastically.

 

 

from a perspective from the musculature the ZZ posture activates other muscles then you usually use ( big ough at the start) I concluded that ( apart from a lot of other things) this is a strong aid for  bloodflow in all of the body.

 

As for purpose, I will never pass the state of beginner, but seems to me opening the yongquan/bubbling spring is the first result. 

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

from a perspective from the musculature the ZZ posture activates other muscles

I believe that most muscles are activated in the lower leg. It is because that is where the support is for the whole body weight. As I stand right now, with my knees bent, I am feeling the tension in my lower legs.

[blue eyed snake]

30 minutes ago, Mango said:

I believe that most muscles are activated in the lower leg. It is because that is where the support is for the whole body weight. As I stand right now, with my knees bent, I am feeling the tension in my lower legs.

 

hmm, when you look at the musculature of the legs you see it's many layers. My teacher said that when you assume the correct posture you will make more use of the inner layers of muscles, thus giving the outer layers a bit of rest.

 

I haven't practiced for years but when I still did there was no tension in the lower legs. 

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

I haven't practiced for years but when I still did there was no tension in the lower legs. 

If you haven't practiced for years, then, if you do it for 5 to 10 minutes from now, do you feel soreness in the lower and upper legs? Normally, beginners do.

I just ask my wife to do it she did feel the tension in her lower legs.

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Foundation

 

I think you will gain more from this explaination though  

 

32.00 - 37.00

Well, he did say Wuji is just a posture, and the rest of the explanation is overkilled. 

[Shadow_self]

Just now, Mango said:

Well, he did say Wuji is just a posture, and the rest of the explanation is overkilled. 

 

There's a lot more he's not saying...but the explanation the it is vital to building the Lower Dan Tian is something you may have overlooked...thats not overkill, its extremely important

 

Im not going to list a big list of things here, but the kind of isometic tension of wuji is inseparable from the YJJ process...

 

Wuji properly should not just be felt on you legs...you should a feel a "kind" of tension (like a stretch) basically everywhere...from your feet to the crown of your head, and everything in between will be under tension and changing (the right type of tension).

 

When you pressurize yongquan, the bones in your feet spreading apart have a very important effect upon the Huang

 

Some good posts in this thread

 

 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

this is a strong aid for  bloodflow in all of the body.

Normally, at the wuji position in ZZ, the legs muscles are contracted which restricted the vein to return blood to the heart. As in Taiji, the movement of the muscles is contracted and released which aids the blood in the vein to flow upward returning to the heart.

[Shadow_self]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

I did think… the conversation was circling in an odd direction… now it all makes sense  

 

Welcome back ChiDragon 

 

22 hours ago, steve said:

ChiDragon’s back,

😁

Nice to see you again!

 

 

 

My goodness, it actually is him 

 

What the hell have I created with this thread

 

Zombies everywhere

 

 

[Mango]

Don't worry he will be banned again soon or later.

[doc benway]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

Don't worry he will be banned again soon or later.

 

And he’ll bounce back again as a dragonfruit!

[Geof Nanto]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Don't worry he will be banned again soon or later.

 

ReturnDragon (aka ChiDragon) was included in the mass banning purge which Trunk implemented on becoming administrator in April 2020. I never had much interaction with him, but to my understanding he was not banned because of any obnoxious manner. Rather, he was banned because a number of members considered he was posting excessive amounts of misinformation. 

 

While I react negatively to anyone posting what I consider to be false information, and appreciate to effort members put in to counter it, the moderators made it clear in relation to Covid 19 discussions that their job is to ensure discussion is respectful and abides by the forum rules, not to decide what is false information and what is not.  

 

If that’s the case, looked at objectively, did ChiDragon violate any forum rules?  In retrospect, was he wrongly banned?
 

[Earl Grey]

32 minutes ago, Geof Nanto said:

 

ReturnDragon (aka ChiDragon) was included in the mass banning purge which Trunk implemented on becoming administrator in April 2020. I never had much interaction with him, but to my understanding he was not banned because of any obnoxious manner. Rather, he was banned because a number of members considered he was posting excessive amounts of misinformation. 

 

While I react negatively to anyone posting what I consider to be false information, and appreciate to effort members put in to counter it, the moderators made it clear in relation to Covid 19 discussions that their job is to ensure discussion is respectful and abides by the forum rules, not to decide what is false information and what is not.  

 

If that’s the case, looked at objectively, did ChiDragon violate any forum rules?  In retrospect, was he wrongly banned?
 

 

 

Quote

Word to the wise: 

 

ReturnDragon aka "ChiDragon" was very active on this site until 2014.

 

He disappeared in disgrace (I don't know if he was banned or simply had enough good sense to disappear) due to the following:

 

In November 2013 ChiDragon shouted the following in all-caps: 

 

   On 11/13/2013 at 3:08 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

Xing Ming(性命) means life. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING GONG(性功) OR MING GONG(命功) in any Chinese Classics.

 

This statement made it clear that ChiDragon, who is semi-bilingual and positions himself on this forum as a font of Daoist knowledge, had obviously never made a serious reading of readily available Daoist writings, and clearly could not have received any sort of oral education in Daoism.

 

For those who are new to these things, here is an analogy: not having heard of xing and ming practice in Daoism is a bit like not having heard of a concept like "communion" in Catholicism or "kosher" in Judaism. These concepts are utterly fundamental and they are widely known to people with only a cursory knowledge of Daoism. If a man who wanted to teach you about Catholicism yelled in all caps "I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF COMMUNION IN ANY CATHOLIC TEACHINGS" would you believe anything else he had to say? If the answer is that you would, well, then ChiDragon has many lies that he would love to pour into your ears.

 

Anyway, there is a story to see here. Please note that the above exclamation was made by ChiDragon in on November 13, 2013.

 

Not even two months later, January 2, 2014,ChiDragon wrote the following post (bold added by me):

 

   On 1/2/2014 at 2:05 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

Hello NotVoid,
I do respect your own personal beliefs. I do have absolute facts in regards to Taoist beliefs. Have you heard of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming Kung? There are two sides to Taoism, one is philosophical and the other is spiritual. 

 

Somehow ChiDragon went from yelling about the nonexistence of this subject to acting as its representative in just seven weeks. This was merely the start of a worsening trend, probably one predicated by untreated mental illness. I feel pity for ill individuals who need treatment, but I do not think pity requires we be politely silent and watch disasters unfold (especially if that means watching the a disaster repeat itself). This disaster of lying-mixed-with-false-spiritual-teachings continued to unfold on January 2, 2014, when ChiDragon suddenly began presenting himself as a representative of Quanzhen Daoist (全真道, often called "Complete Reality Daoism") teachings. He wrote the following:

 

   On 1/2/2014 at 7:28 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

Well, I only hold to the standard practice of the QuanZhen Tao but not other Taoist beliefs. It is more than just associated with internal alchemy traditions. Perhaps read this, with your own discretion, and see does it alter your thinking in anyway. 

DCXM 

 

"DCXM" is an acronym that ChiDragon invented during this time period. It stands for "Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming." Recall that two months prior he had "NEVER HEARD OF XING GONG OR MING GONG in any Chinese Classics."

 

Now he was teaching it.

 

The next day, January 3, 2014, he wrote (bold text again is my addition):

 

   On 1/3/2014 at 12:38 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

I am practicing the DCXM which require me to follow the principles of the Quanzhen Tao. One of the requirement is to isolate the facts from the fallacies and opinions. What I am putting out here are not my personal opinions but from the high standards of the Quanzhen Tao. Some of the people were against me was because they only thought it was some translation from some fancy Chinese words without basis. I saw those who had accused me of putting lots of craps which only their personal opinions. Thus I haven't seen any merits in their presentations which are so convincing in any way. Most of time, I only see statements to say what is not rather than what it is. However, due to my present practice in DCXM, I have great tolerance for this kind of activities. 

 

Obviously, there is no way that ChiDragon could go from "I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING OR MING" to "following the principles of the Quanzhen Dao" in a mere seven weeks. At the time, if I recall correctly, he did not even live in China, but somewhere in the suburban or rural United States. Even if you lived on Mt. Wudang or Mt. Qincheng, you would likely not be able to find a qualified teacher who was willing to transmit introductory xing-ming cultivation instructions to you within seven weeks of meeting you, and you would not be able to tell if this teacher had given you genuine instructions or not in such a short amount of time. ChiDragon most certainly had not spent seven weeks wandering from temple to temple in the mountains of China. He had, at best, done some clicking around Baidu, before inventing his own "practice," stealing Daoist terminology, and inventing an acronym for it. 

 

So, when exactly did ChiDragon come up with the lie that is "DCXM?" 

 

It turns out he did that on November 21, 2013. That is, to be exact, not seven weeks but eight days after screaming "I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING OR MING."

 

8.

 

Fucking.

 

Days.

 

On November 21, ChiDragon created a new thread entitled "Taoist Important Thoughts and Canon." In this post he literally copy-pasted blocks of text from Baidubaike, which is the online encyclopedia portion of the Chinese search engine, Baidu. 

 

It was only another week before ChiDragon began offering advise about cultivation in his thread. It started with: 

 

   On 11/25/2013 at 8:57 PM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

Hopefully, by the time I am done with this thread, everyone will know what a Taoist or a True person is. Then, everyone will know how to cultivate to be a True Person. Btw Please keep in mind a True Person is different from a Perfect Man! However, I have to advice everybody must abide by the definitions of esoteric Taoist Terms, in order, to become a Taoist.

 

Egged along by some too-easily-impressed-by-a-bit-of-Chinese board members, ChiDragon continued his descent into megalomania. By November 27, 2013, somehow he had magically developed enough expertise to begin offering a detailed roadmap of what "DCXM" practice involves. He wrote:

 

   On 11/27/2013 at 2:45 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

The Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming should be performed sequentially in a progressive manner; from low level to high, and from shallow to profound. The Neidan-ist had spoken of the "beginning level, middle, and advanced"......................................................Whatever it was, form purifying the spiritual heart, elevated to the next realm, regulating the chi-blood, or the enhancement of the quality of the body, it cannot be done in a second, it needs lots of endurance to practice diligently. It is a long term project which needs continuance of body sensation and mental intuition to progress into the realm of refinement. Of course, there are some hardships but it has to be acquired naturally, not forcefully.

 

Just a month after not knowing what the words xing and ming mean, by December 11, 2013, ChiDragon had lost totally touch with reality, making statements about what an enlightened mind thinks, implying he personally understands these things. This is, speaking plainly, delusional false enlightenment psychosis. The reason I am making this post is to make sure this record stands right alongside the new offerings of "ReturnDragon." Newcomers, it would be extremely dangerous for you to follow the "Daoist" teachings of a mentally ill person like ChiDragon.It is, certainly, a tragedy that he is insane, and I would be overjoyed if he had a massive turn of fortune in this life that allows him to return to sanity. However, since that has not happened yet and he is back again giving out terrible qigong and neigong advice, I feel a harsh warning needs to be made. Here is what he wrote about the "true mind" on Dec 11:

 

   On 12/11/2013 at 8:34 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

The cultivation of Xing in Quanzhen is to transform a "false mind" into a "true mind" rather than face reality as one might thought. To a Taoist, a false mind is full of contaminants which is deceiving the mind from seeing things clearly. A true mind only see and isolate the facts among the chaotic fallacies. Any uncertainty or assumption will make the thought incomplete which puts the mind into a state of falsehood. Thus it has not met the canon of Quanzhen Tao.

 

ChiDragon did not limit his campaign of lies and false teaching to the above thread. His new month-old "DCXM" obsession immediately began spilling all over the forum (he had over 7,000 posts) and soon he was using an expert's voice to make blanket pronouncements about the entire study of Daoist internal alchemy (also known as "内丹/neidan"). Nine months after "discovering" the concept of xing-ming on Baidu's encyclopedia, on August 4, 2014, he wrote:

 

   On 8/2/2014 at 6:08 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

As a basic concept for Neidan from our ancestors, they had come up with the best method there is, the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM). It is also known as the Dual Cultivation of the Mind and Body. The mind and body are the two major ingredients to be cultivated for one to be a better or true person. Thus the DCXM is the best method to cultivate a person into a most effective internal pill ever.

 

Surprise....

Are you surprised what Neidan(內丹) is all about now......??? 

 

To make another analogy for newcomers, telling people that he knows what is the "best method to cultivate the 'internal [elixir]'" less than a year after screaming that he did not know about xing and ming would be like a person on a Buddhism forum telling you he knows the best way to reach enlightenment just eight months after screaming "I HAVE NEVER HEARD ABOUT THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH IN ANY BUDDHIST SUTRA."

 

When you encounter a man like this, beware. He is on a downward spiral, and as they say, "misery loves company." He does not want to drown alone, and he is actively recruiting naive, gullible, credulous people to drag down with him. The saddest thing about such a descent is how much will and stubbornness is involved. The more you try to stop him, the more he slams his foot onto the gas pedal. Part of this illness seems to be a perverse notion that plowing ahead no matter how much other people disagree with you proves you are right. Catastrophe for such a person is not merely unavoidable; it has already arrived. 

 

I am content to finish this post with a final quote from ChiDragon which should suffice to make it extremely clear just how deluded and (to a practitioner who follows any of his advice) dangerous he is. On August 4, 2014 he declared himself to be a realized being. He wrote:

 

   On 8/4/2014 at 9:56 AM,  ChiDragonsaid: 

Perhaps you might say that I do live in a black and white world to see things from a scientific perspective.

 

I have found Tao and there is no need to search for Tao.

 

Self-deception that has reached stratospheric levels is merely a pity. Stratospheric self-deception that attempts to blaze like a sun and redefine clearly established facts in order to aggrandize a malignant-tumor-like ego and create a following is something for which the word "crime" is probably not too light.

 

In conclusion:

 

A self-declared realized being now using the name "ReturnDragon" has returned to the forum promulgate a vision of Daoist philosophy and practice whose foundation is built upon fantasy, dishonesty, and a desperate need for attention and affirmation. 

 

I strongly urge:

 

Do not be a victim.

 

Do not be an enabler.

 

Do not let yourself be hurt.

 

Do not let yourself be an unwitting assistant in another man's harmful behavior. 

 

祝 道安

 

[Mango]

On 10/27/2022 at 2:31 PM, Cobie said:

That’s wisdom.
 

Following someone else’s path will never get you were you need to be.

It has always been my motto. Sometimes, too much depending on following others could make one blind and off track. 
I will put it in my famous quote bin. 

[Mango]

58 minutes ago, Geof Nanto said:

 

ReturnDragon (aka ChiDragon) was included in the mass banning purge which Trunk implemented on becoming administrator in April 2020. I never had much interaction with him, but to my understanding he was not banned because of any obnoxious manner. Rather, he was banned because a number of members considered he was posting excessive amounts of misinformation. 

 

While I react negatively to anyone posting what I consider to be false information, and appreciate to effort members put in to counter it, the moderators made it clear in relation to Covid 19 discussions that their job is to ensure discussion is respectful and abides by the forum rules, not to decide what is false information and what is not.  

 

If that’s the case, looked at objectively, did ChiDragon violate any forum rules?  In retrospect, was he wrongly banned?
 

Thank you! After all, this is a Taoist forum, I am glad that someone has taken this into consideration. Tao will take its Wu Wei course.

Why do we have so many non-Taoist practitioners here?

Edited October 29, 2022 by Mango

[Shadow_self]

15 minutes ago, Mango said:

Thank you! After all, this is a Taoist forum, I am glad that someone has taken this into consideration. Tao will take its Wu Wei course.

Why do we have so many non-Taoist practitioners here?

 

[Master Logray]

9 hours ago, Mango said:

I just practice the Yang-style Taiji all my life. I did not practice other martial arts. My legs are strong from the diligent practice of Yang-style Taiji. If one has noticed, the Yang style was known to have the legs bent at all times. Thus every time one lifts up one leg slowly, the weight of the body is supported by the other. To me, that was understood it is equivalent to ZZ in some way. ZZ stands on the floor or ground with both legs. IMO To make the legs stronger, standing on one leg is much more effective than two legs. However, both conditions give the same result.

What do you all think?

 

Since you mentioned the legs, Taichi and ZZ are not intended to strengthen the legs as primary purpose (though it is primary requirement);  while balance, sinking of Chi and not to be dislodged are the objectives.  This explanation refers to Taichi's original purpose of hand combat only. 

 

Indeed the slow moving of legs in TaiChi long form is equivalent to ZZ.  In the old days masters didn't like ZZ as it makes the body rigid which is a handicap to respond to situations.  They prefer this "moving ZZ" more.

 

There are trainings on one leg support in Taichi, like one leg stand, another leg swing in different directions.  But again, the purpose is more on balance.  There are physiological tests that check your brain? function by asking you to stand on one leg, close your eyes etc.  Taichi people always do it well.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

The same conversation that’s been had for years with ChiDragon about ZZ is going to repeat itself and the only thing people need to know is he doesn’t know ZZ and simply explaining it even if you’re a qualified teacher, be it from Lam Lam Chuen, another Yi Quan lineage, or even Damo and Adam, will be ignored.

 

Just carry on, and personally, I recommend concerned people like @Shadow_self not waste time trying to explain to ChiDragon since it’s only going to give carpal tunnel syndrome from repeating the same explanation to someone who doesn’t want to listen.

 

Have a good weekend everyone.

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

The same conversation that’s been had for years with ChiDragon about ZZ is going to repeat itself and the only thing people need to know is he doesn’t know ZZ and simply explaining it even if you’re a qualified teacher, be it from Lam Lam Chuen, another Yi Quan lineage, or even Damo and Adam, will be ignored.

 

Just carry on, and personally, I recommend concerned people like @Shadow_self not waste time trying to explain to ChiDragon since it’s only going to give carpal tunnel syndrome from repeating the same explanation to someone who doesn’t want to listen.

 

Have a good weekend everyone.

 

Oh don't worry my friend

 

Im all too familiar with his ways

 

It just took me a minute to catch on that it was him behind the pseudonym of a rather delightful fruit  

[blue eyed snake]

14 hours ago, Mango said:

If you haven't practiced for years, then, if you do it for 5 to 10 minutes from now, do you feel soreness in the lower and upper legs? Normally, beginners do.

I just ask my wife to do it she did feel the tension in her lower legs.

 

When I started there was soreness in all of the legs, ough.

 

Not now however, no tension in the legs either,

apart from the peculiar 'tension' everywhere that comes from stretching the body upwards while releasing muscle tension.

 

not sure whether the standing posture I was taught was called ZZ or Wuji though, we just called it standing.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Oh don't worry my friend

 

Im all too familiar with his ways

 

It just took me a minute to catch on that it was him behind the pseudonym of a rather delightful fruit  

Well, as you and @freeform are happy to highlight bunkum and hokum, you certainly do thankless work. He’s also not earning me any money debunking him, so I have to prioritize. We have another typhoon now all weekend and my house has leaks, so allocating ChiDragon more time than I already have is not a priority. Hope all is well in your neighborhood and with your practice!

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

We have another typhoon now all weekend and my house has leaks

Hope it weathers the storms 🙏🏼

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

We have another typhoon now all weekend and my house has leaks

 

hoping you and your house will come through unscathed