Nathan Brine Revised Material

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Ouch…

 

For that price… instead of buying all these courses one could chat to Neirong on his discord for a whole year!

 

 

Who could argue with that now?  

 

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

But yes - it’s quite expensive isn’t it. If I was really interested, I’d save up my pennies and go and see WLP instead.

 

I think this move to teaching online isn’t a good one to be honest.
 

Though I do understand that teachers need to eat and clothe their kids…

 

I tend to agree. My assumption is if you sign up to his platform, this should be heavily discounted. For example, I know Damo has a YJJ course coming up this month, thats 100 euros for 10 hours. Thats about the price of any martial arts class you'd take, and far more reasonable

 

Regards the online teaching, I think it came out of COVID, which was ideal at the  time.

 

Its great that its available, especially for those out of reach, but at a certain point its just going to require a teacher interaction beyond a video or words on a screen. There's also a far greater amount of lies, deceit and charlatan activity that can take place with this medium, which is really bad. Like anything, I suppose discernment is key

 

The reports from the last retreat were overwhelmingly positive, which I think gives more people the motivation to train in person. Fortunately those facilities are being put in place now and the onus is on the student to go and visit now.

[Miffymog]

28 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Who could argue with that now?  

 

 

I tend to agree. My assumption is if you sign up to his platform, this should be heavily discounted. For example, I know Damo has a YJJ course coming up this month, thats 100 euros for 10 hours. Thats about the price of any martial arts class you'd take, and far more reasonable

 

Regards the online teaching, I think it came out of COVID, which was ideal at the  time.

 

Its great that its available, especially for those out of reach, but at a certain point its just going to require a teacher interaction beyond a video or words on a screen. There's also a far greater amount of lies, deceit and charlatan activity that can take place with this medium, which is really bad. Like anything, I suppose discernment is key

 

The reports from the last retreat were overwhelmingly positive, which I think gives more people the motivation to train in person. Fortunately those facilities are being put in place now and the onus is on the student to go and visit now.

 

As far as Damo goes, I signed up for it and quickly reached information overload where I realised that there were far too many things I could be getting slightly wrong, adding up to me going off course somewhat.

 

But, as the weeks go by, now Covid is over, more and more of his schools are popping up offering in person and on line tuition. For pretty much the same price as his on line school, if I wanted to follow that tuition careful, the in person feedback is definitely the way I'd go.

[Wilhelm]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

so you pay first and then he tells you what exactly "lesser reverted elixir" is? or its gonna remain a surprise all the way?

He's got a chapter on it in his book FWIW.  I'm not at that stage in training and can't comment on the content or anything, but given your background would it help to know he's talking about the 小還丹 and the 小藥? (I'm no scholar and only use the English translations)

  

[mcoolio]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Quote

 

But yes - it’s quite expensive isn’t it. If I was really interested, I’d save up my pennies and go and see WLP instead.

 

I think this move to teaching online isn’t a good one to be honest.
 

Though I do understand that teachers need to eat and clothe their kids…

 

I tend to agree. My assumption is if you sign up to his platform, this should be heavily discounted. For example, I know Damo has a YJJ course coming up this month, thats 100 euros for 10 hours. Thats about the price of any martial arts class you'd take, and far more reasonable

 

$1100 dollars for his most expensive teaching. Not cheap, but also not outrageously expensive. Depending on the material, that could be a fair price. No?

 

 

[mcoolio]

2 hours ago, Miffymog said:

As far as Damo goes, I signed up for it and quickly reached information overload where I realised that there were far too many things I could be getting slightly wrong, adding up to me going off course somewhat.

 

Gotta go slow. Can take years to get things right. Weeks or even months of doing certain exercises. Then weeks and months doing other exercises. Then going back, to the first, and noticing it's not the same. Repeat and repeat.

 

But seems true of course, if you can get a live teacher, seems like is always better. But needs to be a decent enough teacher of course. If teacher is no good, perhaps the online is better?

 

To me it seems like training, it's no longer the same as in the past. The rules have changed. They didn't have video. We have, and you can watch and rewatch infinite times. For a lot of stuff, exercises are simple and videos are good to explain the stuff, you just have to do and redo it a lot.

 

But I guess teachers are still important of course...  

[Shadow_self]

38 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

 

$1100 dollars for his most expensive teaching. Not cheap, but also not outrageously expensive. Depending on the material, that could be a fair price. No?

 

 

 

Personally, I find it a bit much.

 

It doubt it would work on its own merit...it needs proper foundations

 

@freeformis far more qualified than I to speak on longmen methods.

 

For another few Gs you'd get a retreat with WLP...and youd get a lot more for it

 

Now if he said 200-300 id say ok fair enough...but 1100? 

 

Other teachers offer substantially more for less imo

[liminal_luke]

Nathan's courses get more expensive as a student progresses.  To me, this makes sense.  The first course is a reasonable $250, low enough for many (not all) students to take an initial chance on the material.  If I take that first course and don't perceive any benefit, I stop. No harm, not much of a foul. If I perceive great benefit, I'm willing to pay more for subsequent courses because I'm already on a path that feels good to me.

 

For the right student, someone karmically attuned to Nathan's teaching and methods, someone who will take the practices and work with them for decades, the courses are a bargain.  For some others, any price would be too much.

Edited November 3, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Shadow_self]

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Nathan's courses get more expensive as a student progresses.  To me, this makes sense.  The first course is a reasonable $250, low enough for many (not all) students to take an initial chance on the material.  If I take that first course and don't perceive any benefit, I stop. No harm, not much of a foul. If I perceive great benefit, I'm willing to pay more for subsequent courses because I'm already on a path that feels good to me.

 

For the right student, someone karmically attuned to Nathan's teaching and methods, someone who will take the practices and work with them for decades, the courses are a bargain.  For some others, any price would be too much.

 

Im assuming that he will integrate them into his teacher page on cinnabar, and offer them to his students at a cheaper rate, which I am all for.

 

I would hope that 1100 would be the price for someone just coming along and saying hey that looks interesting

 

Ive always found Nathan to be a nice guy, and his prior offerings were much cheaper so that's why I was a bit surprised

 

I wouldn't have given him a free plug otherwise  

 

 

[freeform]

I’ve handed over thousands simply to be introduced to some teachers… literally a bag full of cash just for an introduction (couple of which never went anywhere!)… like a really wholesome drug deal 

 

So in comparison, the price seems somewhat reasonable. 
 

I still believe (like @Shadow_self mentioned) there are prerequisite foundations necessary to make this seated stuff really work.

 

Brine did a ton of internal martial arts and qigong before he ever me WLP… I’m certain that part of his success in the system is due to having built a foundation outside of the system.

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, mcoolio said:

They didn't have video.

 

There are several problems with video:

1. Videos cannot adjust your posture, and many adjustments are subtle. 

2. Videos can't answer your questions, or adapt the practice to you personally. They are by nature generic. You can't ask a video what to do when stuff goes wrong. 

3. Videos don't transfer the full panoply of physical and energetic cues.  

 

I think videos can be a nice supplement, but never a replacement-- at least not any time soon.

[anshino23]

2 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

There are several problems with video:

1. Videos cannot adjust your posture, and many adjustments are subtle. 

2. Videos can't answer your questions, or adapt the practice to you personally. They are by nature generic. You can't ask a video what to do when stuff goes wrong. 

3. Videos don't transfer the full panoply of physical and energetic cues.  

 

I think videos can be a nice supplement, but never a replacement-- at least not any time soon.

 

What about VR goggles + practice with a teacher doing remote transmission? 

 

Just kidding, I agree and don't think they'll ever replace the real thing either. 

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, mcoolio said:

To me it seems like training, it's no longer the same as in the past. The rules have changed. They didn't have video. We have, and you can watch and rewatch infinite times. For a lot of stuff, exercises are simple and videos are good to explain the stuff, you just have to do and redo it a lot.

 

But I guess teachers are still important of course...  

This is a good point...It goes a long way from having notes scribbled in a pad. Though I also do this

 

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

There are several problems with video:

1. Videos cannot adjust your posture, and many adjustments are subtle. 

2. Videos can't answer your questions, or adapt the practice to you personally. They are by nature generic. You can't ask a video what to do when stuff goes wrong. 

3. Videos don't transfer the full panoply of physical and energetic cues.  

 

I think videos can be a nice supplement, but never a replacement-- at least not any time soon.

 

I don't think any of them advocate this as a replacement though?

 

To be fair, the teachers in question are very supportive in terms of adjusting peoples postures within the limitations of their ability from a distance, and definitely engage and answer their students questions pretty much all the time.

 

You may/may not have done some online classes before?

 

From my own experience a skilled teacher from what I can see, can get someone to pretty much the right point, and tell them when its just right ( I say this based on having my own posture adjusted which gave rise to something quite specific I was struggling with).

 

The biggest issue I would see, would be in the 3rd point you raised, but that would probably depend on where someone is at in their practice. However, that issue isn't limited to video, language barriers can cause the same, if not greater issues (Mo Pai for example).

 

The onus really is on the student to visit the teacher at this point. There's just no way around that

 

But then, this type of teaching has really opened the arts up in a way that just wasn't possible years ago

 

So I do think, a model of what we are seeing combined with intermittent visits will be the way forward, and for those who are dedicated, may get access to deeper teachings/introductions and so forth, those things which require full time in person instruction (most people never get this anyway).

 

I would view it more as complementary than supplementary (with that balance shifting over time) 

 

Personally,  it feels like it would be tough to have been doing this 20/30 years ago, where you saw you teacher, left, returned 6 months later only to find out you'd been doing it all wrong for  the entirety of those 6 months

 

 Sheesh would that suck  

[dwai]

5 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

What about VR goggles + practice with a teacher doing remote transmission? 

 

Just kidding, I agree and don't think they'll ever replace the real thing either. 

Dreams are good too 

[Earl Grey]

21 minutes ago, dwai said:

Dreams are good too 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

16 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

given your background would it help to know he's talking about the 小還丹 and the 小藥?

yes thank you it would. his using those terms proves that he himself did not achieve the phenomenon called by these terms and does not know what they mean. (just like all other neidan teachers so thats trivial)

what is fascinating though that the seller does not say what he sells and the buyers do not ask what they buy. There is an 8 page discussion of whether the price is high or low, video vs. in person teaching etc. Not one of these very intelligent guys ever asks what is bought and sold at that price, whats the result of that teaching is. A result is simply not a part of the equation, the what is not relevant at all. Fascinating really...and freaking hilarious!

[mcoolio]

12 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

There are several problems with video:

1. Videos cannot adjust your posture, and many adjustments are subtle. 

2. Videos can't answer your questions, or adapt the practice to you personally. They are by nature generic. You can't ask a video what to do when stuff goes wrong. 

3. Videos don't transfer the full panoply of physical and energetic cues.  

 

Sure, a live teacher poking at you and adjusting posture may be useful. But in the end, seems to me like it is really something that must be found, for the most part on your own. A good static posture practice will have a fairly extensive list of alignment points that can guide you.

 

I suspect that later in the practice, in the more spiritual aspect, will probably have to search for things that are even more difficult to find than good alignment. Things where teacher can provide even less help. Finding correct alignment is probably a piece of cake in comparison, if you already failed in doing that on your own for the most part, ...

 

For point 2, videos are generic, but most questions are generic too. You can't ask a video what do do when stuff goes wrong, but today, we can simply send the teacher an email. Or a school can setup a forum where most questions can be answered. Or even non school forums, you can get great answers for a lot of questions.

 

So yeah, I'm really starting to wonder: what do I really need teacher for? Just give me the high quality exercises as a video and I'll figure out the stuff eventually.

 

No? 

[mcoolio]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Not one of these very intelligent guys ever asks what is bought and sold at that price, whats the result of that teaching is. A result is simply not a part of the equation, the what is not relevant at all.

 

Well it seems reasonably clear to me. Seems like he is simply selling a large chunk of the neidan course of the wang liping dragon gate academy. Result is probably whatever neidan courses are supposed to do.

 

No?

 

If I want more info, I can get an overview of the system in his book, which is probably a good idea for someone deciding to go for that course.

[Taoist Texts]

13 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

Result is probably whatever neidan courses are supposed to do.

exactly. thats the operative word. whatever.  btw what those are supposed to do? anybody knows?

 

15 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

No?

 

If I want more info, I can get an overview of the system in his book

no;) i have not read his book but i dont need to. sight unseen i can bet you dollars to doughnuts you will find nothing concrete there.

[mcoolio]

33 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

exactly. thats the operative word. whatever.  btw what those are supposed to do? anybody knows?

 

Well yea, of course it's difficult to describe, just like dao and all of that stuff. With the neidan, we will just get closer to perfection. Do we need to know much more than that? A little perhaps, but perhaps not to much also. Then we just have to do the exercise.

 

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

no;) i have not read his book but i dont need to. sight unseen i can bet you dollars to doughnuts you will find nothing concrete there.

 

Well yea, probably not, the book will just give you overview. But can still be very nice when deciding to go for the system or not. Then you will have to buy the 5 courses with all the exercises and details.

 

 

What sources and teachers do you use to learn all this stuff then?

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

what is fascinating though that the seller does not say what he sells and the buyers do not ask what they buy. There is an 8 page discussion of whether the price is high or low, video vs. in person teaching etc. Not one of these very intelligent guys ever asks what is bought and sold at that price, whats the result of that teaching is. A result is simply not a part of the equation, the what is not relevant at all. Fascinating really...and freaking hilarious!

That's a fair point.  Speaking for myself I the original product I bought (a seminar with my teacher) was done with very little knowledge of the product and it's intended results (I didn't know so much as what Nei meant at the time lol).

 

I guess there's an implied validity in Nathan from his teacher (and in my case one of his students I used to train with), but going in it's a lot more hope and optimism than concrete knowledge of curriculum and markers that appear as it progresses...

 

I never understood more than the barest metaphors in the classics until recently (6-7 years in).  It was really hard with no Chinese background or reference pointd

51 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

exactly. thats the operative word. whatever.  btw what those are supposed to do? anybody knows?

In Nathan's case the curriculum is made available ahead of time all the way to Dan (as Wang Lipings curriculum is publicly available), so anyone getting into the system has markers from the outset (though it sounds like you might disagree on what those markers are).

 

I'm curious - do you think the student should be taught the theory of the process in whole before beginning practice?  That seems to be the only alternative I can think of to entering it under pretext of faith.  And on that note:

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes thank you it would. his using those terms proves that he himself did not achieve the phenomenon called by these terms and does not know what they mean. (just like all other neidan teachers so thats trivial)

What phenomena are expected to be achieved here, if you don't mind me asking?

[Taoist Texts]

27 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

What sources and teachers do you use to learn all this stuff then?

oh i just read piles of ancient chinese books

[Cobie]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i just read piles of ancient chinese books

 

Admirable indeed. How did you learn to read the characters?

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

22 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

(though it sounds like you might disagree on what those markers are).

i dont know. i have seen no markers at all so far. thats what makes me chuckle.

24 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

do you think the student should be taught the theory of the process in whole before beginning practice?

of course. theory is defined as knowing what are you doing. how you can do anything without knowing what exactly you are doing?

26 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

What phenomena are expected to be achieved here, if you don't mind me asking?

not at all. here is one example:  creating a tangible millet-grain size pearl. 

[Wilhelm]

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. theory is defined as knowing what are you doing. how you can do anything without knowing what exactly you are doing?

That makes sense.  In my case I was given theory relevant to the specific practices I was undertaking and underwent a larger scope of theory for the discipline as a whole (until very recently that meant Qigong and Nei Gong - though I know not everyone agrees on what either means).  I had figured this was because of time constraints (I was there for a weekend initially, so in depth study had to wait for longer sessions).

 

I guess my question is don't you think that would be like doing all four years of University chemistry courses without a single lab experiment?  I.e. if you learn theory from start to finish but have no experiential reference points it's still very useful but completely abstract.

Quote

not at all. here is one example:  creating a tangible millet-grain size pearl. 

Very interesting!  No follow up questions because I have no idea what that means haha

 

Edit: though it's ringing a bell in relation to the top of the Nei Jing Tu, in terms of the language used anyways 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Taoist Texts]

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Admirable indeed. How did you learn to read the characters?

 

 

the most boring way possible. i looked them up a gazillion times until they started to make sense