Best wishes from Brazil

[eric fagundes]

Hi, this is Eric Fagundes from Sao Paulo Brazil, I'm acupuncturist, I have been study classical medical and philosophical texts as foundation to my clinical practices since I read an Elisabeth Rochat book translating chapter 8 of Neijing Lingshu. So, last year I started to learn classical chinese with her and with Peter Smith to a better comprehension of the texts.

 

I have a lot of Dao De Jing versions and reading Dao De Jing in Clear English of Jeff Pepper and Xiao Hui Wang, they use the forum as reference, so, that's why I'm here.

 

In advance, can someone help with line 11 of Laozi chapter 3, some versions use 知 "使夫¹知者不敢為也" (https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing, https://www.daodejing.org/3.html) and others 智 "使夫智者不敢為也" (http://www.laozica.org/第3章不尚賢使民不爭/, https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7337/pg7337.html). Although most of the translators translate it as knowledge, that is a possible translation for both characters, can some clarify why this difference in chinese versions?

 

Any reference that goes thru such analysis is also appreciated

 

Thanks a lot,

Eric

[ilumairen]

Welcome to the bums, eric.

[Cobie]

 

On 24/10/2022 at 12:34 AM, eric fagundes said:

… 使夫知者不敢為也 

… 使夫智者不敢為也

… why this difference in chinese versions?

 

智 and 知 are interchangeable.

Which one is used, makes no difference to the meaning of the text. : )

(Paul W. Kroll, A Student’s Dictionary of Classical and Medieval Chinese, p604)

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 24/10/2022 at 12:34 AM, eric fagundes said:

… Any reference that goes thru such analysis is also appreciated …

I have not found any “reference”.

 

But I think it might be because the links you give are copies from 3 different DDJ versions. See 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53594-3/?do=findComment&comment=986725

 

Sometimes differences are due to faulty ‘transmission’. From generation to generation, the Chinese passed on the DDJ. Sometimes scribes made mistakes when copying. Sometimes changes were made for political reasons.

 

Sometimes differences are due to  different ‘transcriptions’. The oldest texts of the DDJ found, were written in much older characters; most of them no longer in use. Sinologists transcribe these into Classical Chinese. Different Sinologist will make slightly different choices.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Cobie

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[Mango]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:34 PM, eric fagundes said:

 知 "使夫¹知者不敢為也"
 智 "使夫智者不敢為也"

Eric, welcome to TDB

I see your problem here. They are not really different versions. They are many codexes of the DDJ other than the original. Some of the characters were written incorrectly by the authors. In your case here, it might happen to be the author used the character 知 for 智.

Usually, the character 知 means "to know" and 智 means wisdom'. However, it also happens to be that the two characters are interchangeable. In ancient times, I believe 知 (knowledgeable) was used as 智(wisdom) also. 

 "使夫智者不敢為也"
Literally, most people would be translated it as: Then, let's make the Wiseman dare not do it. 
However, the real interpretation is "then, let's make the wise guys dare not to do it" which makes more sense.

Notes: The wise guys were meant in a negative sense in the statement.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Mango

[Cobie]

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Edited November 28, 2022 by Cobie

[blue eyed snake]

On 24-10-2022 at 12:34 AM, eric fagundes said:

Hi, this is Eric Fagundes from Sao Paulo Brazil, I'm acupuncturist, I have been study classical medical and philosophical texts as foundation to my clinical practices since I read an Elisabeth Rochat book translating chapter 8 of Neijing Lingshu. So, last year I started to learn classical chinese with her and with Peter Smith to a better comprehension of the texts.

 

I have a lot of Dao De Jing versions and reading Dao De Jing in Clear English of Jeff Pepper and Xiao Hui Wang, they use the forum as reference, so, that's why I'm here.

 

In advance, can someone help with line 11 of Laozi chapter 3, some versions use 知 "使夫¹知者不敢為也" (https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing, https://www.daodejing.org/3.html) and others 智 "使夫智者不敢為也" (http://www.laozica.org/第3章不尚賢使民不爭/, https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7337/pg7337.html). Although most of the translators translate it as knowledge, that is a possible translation for both characters, can some clarify why this difference in chinese versions?

 

Any reference that goes thru such analysis is also appreciated

 

Thanks a lot,

Eric

 

welcome to the forums Eric,

there is a subforum on textual studies somewhere so hopefully you will find something useful there

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

(my bold)

 

使 let's make

夫智者 the wise guys

不敢 not dare 

為也 to do it

 

 

 

Cobie, could you change your posting style?

you could have put all those answers in one message quite easily.

the way you post comes over as spamming the forum and I note that the OP has not been back yet.

Your way of posting comes over as spamming which is not nice.

[Cobie]

Just now, blue eyed snake said:

 

Cobie, could you change your posting style?

you could have put all those answers in one message quite easily.

the way you post comes over as spamming the forum and I note that the OP has not been back yet.

Your way of posting comes over as spamming which is not nice.

I do apologise, do you want me to delete the posts? If so, I will.

[blue eyed snake]

don't think that's needed but try to post less, put more text in your posts.

the consequence of your posting style is that the "all activity" tab is quickly filled up with your posts thereby drowning the rest.

 

[Cobie]

 

Quote

… try to post less …

 

Thanks for the reminder. I will definitely post a lot less.
 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Cobie

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

Thanks for the reminder. I will definitely post a lot less in the open forum.

@CobieJust say enough to bring the point across but don't overdo it. Thank you!