How does GOD,the christian god, fit into the bigger picture? Is he referred to in any of the other cosmologys of the daoists, buddhists etc?

[exorcist_1699]

17 hours ago, Cobie said:

You did not answer my question. 
 

 

 

Just an attempt to assimilate the Christmas practice into  Taoist  jing-qi-Shen framework ..

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

Just an attempt to assimilate the Christmas practice into  Taoist  jing-qi-Shen framework ..

 

Traditionally we are doing that.  3 religions as one and 5 religions at peace.   But if religions are not at war with each other, why would we have the tendency to treat them as one?

[Cobie]

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[Cobie]

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[forestofclarity]

I think the better way to look at it is the experience of God rather than the existence of God (or more often is the case a god). God is typically inferred from a series of experiences that a practitioner has, and I would say these experiences are the same but the interpretations are different. 

 

So for example, an experience of limitless consciousness to a Christian may be interpreted as experiencing an external being that is limitless, whereas to a Buddhist it would be the experience of one's mind (of course, this is gross oversimplification). 

Edited October 28, 2022 by forestofemptiness

[Cobie]

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[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

I have been told this is not true for Christianity in general, only for some Protestant denominations.

I don’t know if that is true.

Seems this changed-use of the characters 上帝 was started by Legge (who was of a Protestant denomination)

 

“Legge believed and argued that the word "Shangdi" represented a monotheistic god; therefore, he thought it an appropriate term for translating words in reference to the Christian God into Chinese. … His opponents argued that this would cause confusion due to the word's use in Taoism and Chinese folk religion.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Legge

 

 

Legge had an agenda.
Like most Christian missionaries in China at the time, he wanted to convert Chinese people to Christianity.

And at the time it was thought that the best approach was to find similarities between Christianity and local beliefs. 

“He [Legge]  … believed that using a term [上帝] already deeply entrenched in Chinese culture could prevent Christianity from being seen as a completely foreign religion.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Legge 

 

Seems to me this is still the approach of Chinese Christians.

 

This is a link of a Christian organisation. It’s not an unbiased account imo. 

There are some really funny (well funny to me, as I don’t think Chinese characters came from Jehovah) YouTube videos of Chinese Christian’s explaining various Chinese characters as reflecting the Bible. E.g.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

' Ri ' actually depicts a window frame Jesus made when he was a carpenter .

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

One big difference:

Shang DI was an ancestor.

上帝 Shang DI was the first ancestor of the emperor’s clan.

The belief was a form of Ancestor Worship.

 

The “Creator God of the Hebrews revealed in the Bible“,  is not an ancestor.

 

 

 

Its not like Chinese   religion had  a name and a recognition of the Christian God , its more like, some ( Christians ) think the  Chinese might  have some historical monotheism and because there can only be one God, in the Christian view - ergo   .... they  must be the same God .

 

That is, it is a Christian view about Chinese religion, not a Chinese view .

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

@Nungali I think this is something you know a lot about.

I don’t know more than the ‘living religion’, which thinks God is not an ancestor.

Please let your light shine on this. 
 

 

 

I have not encountered it in my studies .  In some indigenous societies their myths might suggest that , but they are creation myths heavily tied into the 'first person' , ancestor hero ,  discoverer of new land , etc .   In these cases the actual creator is more abstract , a cosmic force ( eg The Milky Way ), a mythical animal, etc  .

 

It might get a little confused when we delve into African tribal Islam  , perhaps a similar process was underway there by missionaries  ( similar to the above mentioned process with Chinese  Christian missionaries) .

 

Of course .... there is Jesus  , supposedly God and Man , if he existed he might have had some ancestors  

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

One big difference:

Shang DI was an ancestor.

上帝 Shang DI was the first ancestor of the emperor’s clan.

The belief was a form of Ancestor Worship.

 

The “Creator God of the Hebrews revealed in the Bible“,  is not an ancestor.

 

 

 

Maybe he was an ancestor, maybe not, I’d have to research it more to know for sure. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Bindi

[dwai]

On 10/24/2022 at 7:22 AM, Takingcharge said:

Is he referred to or recognised in any capacity by

buddhism, hinduism, daoism etc?

Assuming there IS a Christian GOD, i.e., distinct from the concepts of the Divine in the more mature traditions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism -  since Christianity is an adolescent religion in comparison, there aren't references to such an entity in the older traditions.

 

Think about it, why would traditions that predate Christianity, or even its parent Judaism by thousands of years, need to comment on the deity of those younger religions? 

 

The creator God is merely one idea in these more perennial systems. The creator God has limitations too. As a manifest entity, it has both a beginning and an end. But there is an unmanifest aspect, which is a common ground for not just the creator God but also all other beings in the Universe and the Universe itself. The eastern/wisdom traditions are more interested in realizing our true nature as that ground - existence itself. 

 

[EFreethought]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

There are some really funny (well funny to me, as I don’t think Chinese characters came from Jehovah) YouTube videos of Chinese Christian’s explaining various Chinese characters as reflecting the Bible. E.g.

 

 

I may be just some random cultivator on the web, but I do not put too much stock into this stuff. It's just another example of pareidolia. Crazy people see what they want to see.

 

Some Christians think that any mention of wood or a tree in the Old Testament is a prophecy of Jesus. Then they say that there are SO MANY prophecies in the Old Testament that it cannot possibly be a coincidence.

 

I am waiting for the day that they start saying right angles are a sign of Jesus, because it's part of a cross, amirite?

 

[Master Logray]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

I got the impression Daoism got almost lost, by incorporating so much of Buddhism.

 

 

Yes, there have been criticism on Taoism is having too much tolerance that it loses its own character.  This is not unlike some anti-immigrant sentiment nowadays.  Taoist scripture include Buddhist classics, temple include Buddhist gods , many people don't know what is the difference between Taoist and Buddhist temples.  The practice of 3/5 religions unity and from the same source further erodes its identity (三教合一，五教同源). 

[Wilhelm]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

Think about it, why would traditions that predate Christianity, or even its parent Judaism by thousands of years, need to comment on the deity of those younger religions? 

Hinduism aside, the other traditions aren't that much older than Christianity, are they? 

 

I guess you could trace the ideas in the culture that led to Daoism back to the Yellow Emperor, the Yijing and so on but I don't think I'm understanding your reasoning here.

 

As far as I know the line of Daoism I'm studying was formalized about a millenium ago but most of the methods were developed more recently (though they've been built upon the foundations of earlier methods, and I'm not sure how much the internal process has changed if at all from these developments). 

 

Comparing this with something like the early Christian fathers who began formalizing their monastic process a few hundred years A.D. which has (as far as I know) continued to this day I'm not sure I see the gerontocratic argument (again - leaving out Hinduism which afaik predates most anything we know about human history )

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Hinduism aside, the other traditions aren't that much older than Christianity, are they? 

The so-called historical dates are more than a bit iffy. Many of the dates ascribed to various historical figures are in fact much older - and the dating is derived from the biblical chronology based on their creation myth of the universe being ~ 6000 yrs old  

 

The Buddha is supposed to have been alive around 550 BCE by western traditions. The eastern traditions place him closer to 1000 BCE. 

Lao Tzu is supposed to be from around 600 BCE, and if what he taught is Daoism, what he taught is much older than him. So I give at least 1000 years between them and the historic Jesus. Christianity of course as we know it was formulated around 400 CE by Constantine. That adds another 400 years. 

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

I guess you could trace the ideas in the culture that led to Daoism back to the Yellow Emperor, the Yijing and so on but I don't think I'm understanding your reasoning here.

Yes - I don't consider those as "non-Daoist". 

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

As far as I know the line of Daoism I'm studying was formalized about a millenium ago but most of the methods were developed more recently (though they've been built upon the foundations of earlier methods, and I'm not sure how much the internal process has changed if at all from these developments). 

That might very well be. But that does that take away from Lao Tzu or his predecessors?

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Comparing this with something like the early Christian fathers who began formalizing their monastic process a few hundred years A.D. which has (as far as I know) continued to this day I'm not sure I see the gerontocratic argument (again - leaving out Hinduism which afaik predates most anything we know about human history )

Did my response help in seeing the gerontocratic argument a bit better?  

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Did my response help in seeing the gerontocratic argument a bit better?  

Yeah for sure - thanks for clarifying!  Think I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and felt like being argumentative haha

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Yeah for sure - thanks for clarifying!  Think I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and felt like being argumentative haha

I can relate to that  

[Zorro Dantes]

So what say you guys to the notion of Jesus having skill and wisdom of the rainbow body, his body did  disappeared upon his death if you recall…

[Jadespear]

On 10/24/2022 at 7:22 AM, Takingcharge said:

Good day everybody,

 

so ive been wondering how does the god of the bible fit into the other cosmologies of just about any other ancient tradition.

 

Is he referred to or recognised in any capacity by

buddhism, hinduism, daoism etc?

 

i know he shows up with the gnostics who considered him to be the demi urge  that created physical existance and the earth to trap souls

 

is he only referred to by christians? Or do other traditions recognise and place him somewhere in the cosmology ?

 

i would be interested to hear about, i havent found much so far

 

 

....yeah it is.  If God of the Bible is an eternal thing, which everyone more or less infers that it is... then the first passage of the Tao TE Ching refers to it:

 

"The way that can be followed is not the eternal way.  

The tao that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.

The named is the mother of ten thousand things. 

Ever desireless one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring one can see the manifestations. 

These two spring from the same source but differ in name;

This appears as darkness.

Darkness within darkness.

The gate to all mystery."

 

.....So what this poem basically describes is that the source of all existence (God) is the eternal tao - the nameless.  A taoist mystic can experience the gate to all mystery by first acknowledging that they must find their own way to it, as it cannot be taught to anyone at all. Why is that?  Because it is inside of yourself, inside of everything...  its the darkness within darkness.  Unrecognizable to the untrained.

 

Taoists do not pray to god like Christians, jews, and other religions do - mostly because they see no use for it.  People who pray to god to help their lives are not bad or anything, they just lack the deeper knowledge required to manifest whatever it is that they want.  Taoists and other mystical traditions unlock some of that knowledge.  A true taoist actually seeks to evolve towards becoming one with the tao, so that they can realize their highest self and live their happiest existence.  The tao ( God ) can create and do anything it wants, a highly realized taoist evolves to the point of being a "celestial immortal".  Those people or beings - transcend the limits of space and time and are one with the Tao on many levels.  Many highly realized spiritual masters work towards this same goal.  Why is that?  Because they can.  It is possible by many accounts and my own experiences to be someone so magical that you could literally be called a "little god".  Basically being a spiritual being rather than a human being.  This is the goal for anyone who actually asks the valid question to any and all religions - what's the point of this?  If religions don't help you, their useless and should be discarded.  If traditions do, embrace them.  Having said that - being a good person is important regardless, because I have to live in your world too.

:---)

 

The major difference that can be seen by comparing western religions with eastern ones is really simple.  Western religions place too much importance on made up dogma and rules to live by out of fear of being persecuted.  While eastern religions and the oriental religions place much more emphasis on personal growth to realize the true nature of everything - to bring peace of mind more or less to everyone.  So while the gods of western religions divide everyone (which was done on purpose in history) - the beliefs, gods, and other things of eastern religions educate and inspire more so. 

 

 

Hinduism - has the creator god (Brahman).  

 

Buddhism - Doesn't denounce the existence of God.  They can't refute what they cannot prove or disprove.  So the God concept is simply not taught.  However, there is the classic story of how Buddha responded to someone seeking to know if there is a God.  His response to a man after asking him about it was simply - "Each person must find their own way to God."

 

I can say from my own personal experience, that all these ways of attempting to have some sort of "relationship" to God are useful.  I know God exists, I consider it a great testament to know that.  I don't believe, I know.  What I do believe in is the power of that knowledge.  

 

I like you, was and still am an intellectual in pursuit of learning the truth about God.  I started to learn the intellectual ways of contrasting and comparing things through religions too, however eventually they all don't do enough.  To really know God, you must really want to by yourself with no lens of any religion whatsoever.  Thats what "truth" actually is.  God is synonymous with truth.  The only way to explore truth is to find a way to see things for what they really are - which is what buddhism and meditation are good for.  Buddhism was basically a hindu offshoot, even the Buddha learned how to meditate from a hindu sage.  If you want to actually know things - you have to experience them.  You can't just learn about them and accept them intellectually.  That's why you need to meditate, so you find, enter, and explore that darkness within darkness - the gate to all mysteries - the great Tao.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 30/10/2022 at 2:59 AM, Wilhelm said:

Yeah for sure - thanks for clarifying!  Think I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed and felt like being argumentative haha

 

Oh ?   really   ?

 

Then ;

 

On 29/10/2022 at 8:52 PM, Wilhelm said:

..... Hinduism which afaik predates most anything we know about human history )

 

No it doesn't .

 

'Hinduism'  is a synthesis that occurred after the Vedic period - between  500–200BCE and  300 CE .

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Zorro Dantes said:

So what say you guys to the notion of Jesus having skill and wisdom of the rainbow body, his body did  disappeared upon his death if you recall…

 

No , I dont recall that .

 

When he died  his body was still " up on  "   the cross , it got taken down and put in a tomb .