Teacher for Non ejaculatory orgasms

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

I would say using spiritual methods to achieve something so humdrum, is like being given a genie's wishfufilling lamp and using it to produce an endless supply of Big Macs. 

Love it - well put  

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Heres the kicker, the Yang aspect of Jing isnt just lost by orgasm...its actually lost by arousal, and it can be burned up by the arousal of any of the sense faculties

Yup - that whole ‘intoxicating’ quality I was talking about - it is fuelled by Jing! 
 

That high gamblers feel - that’s generated by burning up their Jing.

 

That drive to be adored and respected - that whole ‘I’m the main character! Woo!’ thing - also fuelled by Jing.

 

Any such compulsions drain our Jing over time.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Any such compulsions drain our Jing over time.

This is a most common thing nowadays isnt it? Its almost like peoples will is being eroded via the enviornment

 

Personally, my advice to anyone acting  over compulsively is to do uncomfortable standing practice and then sit quietly. Taiji wuji is a favourite of mine....that pull on the Yao

 

It takes quite serious will to be able to stand through the discomfort, and also to sit and quieten the mind

 

The latter also helps detach the sense faculties from earthly goings on 

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

At its root however is a relationship to survival and death.

 

A fair portion of the time when you see someone who has issues with sex and so forth, you might find that there is something amiss in terms of their relationship with those two things.

 

Interesting insight -- thanks.

Edited October 27, 2022 by liminal_luke

[sustainablefarm86]

interesting thoughts about jin

Edited October 29, 2022 by sustainablefarm86

[anshino23]

On 10/27/2022 at 10:34 AM, Vajra Fist said:

This is off topic, but I started testosterone replacement therapy a few months ago, and it's like I've turned the clock back 15 years. 

 

How old are you and what have you noticed in terms of energetics (if anything)?

 

Taken from a Daoist energetic perspective wouldn't TRT actually decrease the settling of jing and thus actually cause higher drain on the jing since one would feel a very high level of sexual desire? Maybe it's more nuanced I am not sure, but I've always been curious to the energetic consequences of something like TRT -- which was also made very popular by Joe Rogan. 

 

I am very curious if something like "kidney depletion" can be seen in a person's face just from looking at them? Perhaps related to under their eyes? Maybe @freeform has an idea, or @Shadow_self.

 

I've noticed the same thing in quite a few guys on TRT. 

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

I am very curious if something like "kidney depletion" can be seen in a person's face just from looking at them? Perhaps related to under their eyes? Maybe @freeform has an idea, or @Shadow_self.

 

I've noticed the same thing in quite a few guys on TRT.

The under eyes have various factors - cold is one… depletion of the heart fire is another - it’s not so clear cut.

 

The most obvious thing to look for in kidney depletion is weakening of the legs, pain in any of the joints of the legs… hips… lower back.
 

There’s also a decline in willpower - you get tired of making decisions earlier in the day… you easily fold and go for junk food or junk stimulation… we don’t do that workout, or give up quickly with difficult tasks etc etc.

 

Apart from ‘fuel’ another aspect of jing, there is also its role in the unfolding of bodily changes over time… it’s jing that dictates puberty, menopause, ageing, balding etc… and the related hormonal changes too.

 

I guess hormone replacement is a way to artificially affect this process… I have no idea what the implications of that are. But there’s certainly a long history of tweaking the processes of jing unfoldment!

 

Im pretty sure that the “Amrita” fluid that develops in practice has a hormonal component to it… I know when it started for me, everything about my physiology started to change… like a second puberty (just less angsty 😅)

[anshino23]

50 minutes ago, freeform said:

The under eyes have various factors - cold is one… depletion of the heart fire is another - it’s not so clear cut.

 

The most obvious thing to look for in kidney depletion is weakening of the legs, pain in any of the joints of the legs… hips… lower back.
 

There’s also a decline in willpower - you get tired of making decisions earlier in the day… you easily fold and go for junk food or junk stimulation… we don’t do that workout, or give up quickly with difficult tasks etc etc.

 

Apart from ‘fuel’ another aspect of jing, there is also its role in the unfolding of bodily changes over time… it’s jing that dictates puberty, menopause, ageing, balding etc… and the related hormonal changes too.

 

I guess hormone replacement is a way to artificially affect this process… I have no idea what the implications of that are. But there’s certainly a long history of tweaking the processes of jing unfoldment!

 

Im pretty sure that the “Amrita” fluid that develops in practice has a hormonal component to it… I know when it started for me, everything about my physiology started to change… like a second puberty (just less angsty 😅)

I guess the question is more in terms of Jing then. Can you have jing depletion but without kidney depletion? 
 

I wouldn't imagine that TRT leads to jing-stilling in that case because desire generally increases. 
 

Because most that are on a good protocol of TRT experience positive effects on all the things you mentioned. This is partially driven by testosterone’s effects on anabolic processes in the body and secondly through its powerful neuromodulatory effect on dopamine signalling in the brain. 
 

Many on TRT have found themselves more level-headed, less tendency toward addictions (due to stabilising effect of dopamine levels) and better concentration. But on top of this also much increased desire which manifests as increased motivation to work (earning money, working out, projects, whatever it may be) as hard mental and physical work becomes more enjoyable due to the neurotransmitter effects. 

The physical effects are usually much stronger back, legs and spine (after 1-2 years of therapy bone mineral density increases quite markedly) — and much faster recovery from tough physical exercise. Hence why many even young males jump on so-called sports TRT which leads to much faster rates of muscle building while avoiding the negative effects of overtraining. 

 

The question is whether these effects of “artificially” raising hormone levels leads to deleterious effects over time — especially from an energetic point of view as well. 
 

A good explanation by Derek from MPMD here on what TRT feels like: 

 

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

How old are you and what have you noticed in terms of energetics (if anything)?

 

Taken from a Daoist energetic perspective wouldn't TRT actually decrease the settling of jing and thus actually cause higher drain on the jing since one would feel a very high level of sexual desire? Maybe it's more nuanced I am not sure, but I've always been curious to the energetic consequences of something like TRT -- which was also made very popular by Joe Rogan. 

 

I am very curious if something like "kidney depletion" can be seen in a person's face just from looking at them? Perhaps related to under their eyes? Maybe @freeform has an idea, or @Shadow_self.

 

I've noticed the same thing in quite a few guys on TRT. 

 

 

 

I had testicular cancer, so my natural production of hormones has been permanently damaged.

 

TRT isn't the same as steroid abuse - the purpose is to ensure that levels are at a normal level, rather than a level higher than the average person, like a body builder would seek.

Accordingly, sexual desire is at a normal and manageable level. I try to stick to once or twice a week, as I did before. 

 

In terms of energetics, I haven't noticed any difference. Someone asked an excellent western neigong teacher a few years back on a private FB group, as they said it was fine from an internal perspective.

 

He said: "People equate hormones and Jing a little incorrectly in Chinese medicine these days as they attempt to mix western and eastern medicine."

 

The only obvious benefit I've noticed is that I have a more positive outlook, my energy levels aren't completely wiped out by a bit of physical activity, and I don't wake up feeling like a reanimated corpse in the morning.

 

I'm early 40s, and I no longer feel like I'm physically in my late 60s. In short, I feel more normal than I have for a long time.

 

Edit - it goes without saying that this is my experience, and everyone will likely react a little differently. Also, that you should only look into this treatment under the supervision of a doctor and with continuous medical oversight. Messing with hormones is no joke and should only really be considered as a last resort.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[anshino23]

23 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I had testicular cancer, so my natural production of hormones has been permanently damaged.

 

TRT isn't the same as steroid abuse - the purpose is to ensure that levels are at a normal level, rather than a level higher than the average person, like a body builder would seek.

Accordingly, sexual desire is at a normal and manageable level. I try to stick to once or twice a week, as I did before. 

 

In terms of energetics, I haven't noticed any difference. Someone asked an excellent western neigong teacher a few years back on a private FB group, as they said it was fine from an internal perspective.

 

He said: "People equate hormones and Jing a little incorrectly in Chinese medicine these days as they attempt to mix western and eastern medicine."

 

The only obvious benefit I've noticed is that I have a more positive outlook, my energy levels aren't completely wiped out by a bit of physical activity, and I don't wake up feeling like a reanimated corpse in the morning.

 

I'm early 40s, and I no longer feel like I'm physically in my late 60s. In short, I feel more normal than I have for a long time.

Yes I’m aware of how it’s used both in clinical practice (as I worked as an endocrinologist for more than a year) and also outside of clinical practice in terms of enhancement and anti-aging concerns. 
 

In your case it’s very clear — we call this a primary issue. If the testicles are no longer working — no matter the signal from the brain, you cannot produce adequate levels of testosterone. Supplying the body with the needed testosterone exogenously in that case makes very good sense as the body produces no testosterone in that case. 
 

The more difficult case — as was the case with Rogan and many others even younger guys that I’ve seen — is that the testosterone levels are normal but it’s just above the lowest reference range — and the brain is no longer sending adequate signalling through luteinizing and follicle stimulating hormone from the pituitary gland to adequately stimulate the testes to produce higher levels of testosterone. 
 

When someone gives a person like this TRT they go from being low normal to high normal and maybe even supraphysiological compared to other normal guys — as a poor nights sleep or excessive stress would deplete a normal persons testosterone levels — but in the case of supplying the testosterone exogenously the person has a constant high level in their bodies. 

My question would more apply to these people. Also I would be curious if one can undergo alchemical processes whilst being on hormonal replacement therapy… Since that would be working with the essences and pre-natal substances how would taking something exogenously affect those substances? These are the hard questions and I’m not sure anyone but a master could answer unfortunately. 
 

In any case I’m very happy TRT is helping you. I’ve treated many with TRT and seen absolutely mind boggling life changing effects on their lives — so don’t misunderstand me. I’m certainly not against it. I am just very curious whether someone can get very far in these Arts and still be taking exogenous substances when said substances may interfere with natural processes that are part and parcel of energetic practice. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by anshino23

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 Also I would be curious if one can undergo alchemical processes whilst being on hormonal replacement therapy… Since that would be working with the essences and pre-natal substances how would taking something exogenously affect those substances? These are the hard questions and I’m not sure anyone but a master could answer unfortunately. 

 

 

The answer I saw was given by possibly the highest-level public teacher of these arts in the west. We all know who it is, but I won't break confidence as it was a question answered privately.

 

I'm fairly confident it wouldn't be an issue.

 

That said, different teachers may have different requirements. I'm not currently working with an alchemical system, so it's not something I have a great deal of understanding about.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[Vajra Fist]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

the testosterone levels are normal but it’s just above the lowest reference range

 

It's a little outside the scope of the thread, but the reference ranges are quite arbitrary. For instance, my levels prior to treatment were just above the lowest point on the normal scale. Because of that, I wasn't eligible for free treatment under the national healthcare system, so I had to use a private clinic.

 

Now my levels are at the highest levels of the normal range. Both are normal levels as defined by the health system, but the difference in terms of how it feels is significant.

 

Personally, if it was possible that a better diet, sleep training and regular exercise would naturally raise my levels enough to provide a better quality of life, I'd do everything I could to pursue that course.

 

But there's only so much work that be expected from a floundering mono-ball 

 

 

[anshino23]

20 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

The answer I saw was given by possibly the highest-level public teacher of these arts in the west. We all know who it is, but I won't break confidence as it was a question answered privately.

 

I'm fairly confident it wouldn't be an issue.

 

That said, different teachers may have different requirements. I'm not currently working with an alchemical system, so it's not something I have a great deal of understanding about.

 

 

In my opinion... that's simply expedient means... This is a very known thing by most public teachers.

 

If someone has a medical issue and you tell them "no, if you start this treatment it will not allow you to achieve the highest rungs of achievement in the internal arts" do you think said person would say so?

 

In my opinion - as a public teacher - you also simply want to make sure people are practicing so they improve their Ming - this will help them maybe in a future incarnation achieve the highest, even if they may not reach it in this lifetime. But to be told, "No it's not possible" would be disheartening right? And could cause said person to stop practicing which wouldn't be beneficial. 

 

So I personally think there's a lot of half-truths being told especially if you're not a direct student under said teacher, where there is an intimate relationship and you're initiated into the lineage and its practices. 

 

And yes I am specifically talking about higher levels of Neigong and then Alchemy. For instance it would be very interesting to see if someone on TRT would be able to produce the Amrita...

 

As I understand the Amrita is a rejuvenation of the entire endocrine system; and as we know, taking exogenous substances such as testosterone, blocks the endogenous production of hormones from the pituitary gland in the brain... 

[anshino23]

20 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

It's a little outside the scope of the thread, but the reference ranges are quite arbitrary. For instance, my levels prior to treatment were just above the lowest point on the normal scale. Because of that, I wasn't eligible for free treatment under the national healthcare system, so I had to use a private clinic.

 

Now my levels are at the highest levels of the normal range. Both are normal levels as defined by the health system, but the difference in terms of how it feels is significant.

 

Personally, if it was possible that a better diet, sleep training and regular exercise would naturally raise my levels enough to provide a better quality of life, I'd do everything I could to pursue that course.

 

But there's only so much work that be expected from a floundering mono-ball 

 

As I have treated many men with these issues - it's not as simple as you're depicting I'm afraid  

 

For instance I've seen guys with 300-400 ng/dl of total testosterone and a free testosterone just over the lowest reference range with zero symptoms of androgen deficiency. So what's going on there? Well, it could be many things - for instance we know that androgen receptor sensitivity is very important for one to respond to circulating androgens. Could it for instance be that people that are very sensitive to androgens don't need as high levels in their circulation to have adequate hormonal and androgenic response?

 

Secondly, I've seen the opposite example... guys with >1000 ng/dL of total testosterone and free testosterone in the very highest of free testosterone levels that have struggled with all the symptoms of androgenic deficiency like low libido, poor muscle building, brain fog, immense fatigue, poor sleep, aching back and knees, etc... 

 

So in my opinion it is really the patients situation that is important and a holistic assessment that is necessary. Most young guys with secondary hypogonadism issues also have to take into account this is a lifelong dedication of biweekly to weekly intramuscular testosterone injections, so it's not a decision to be taken lightly. 

 

I am speaking generally here and not in your case. You have a clear case of testicular failure where supplying it exogenously makes very good sense. But it's not really as clear-cut as the private clinics would have you believe  

[liminal_luke]

My first inclination when it comes to messing with hormones, or any medical intervention really, is to do nothing.  Doing nothing is not always the right move, but, outside of emergency situations, it's always worthy of consideration (in my nonexpert opinion).  

[anshino23]

19 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

My first inclination when it comes to messing with hormones, or any medical intervention really, is to do nothing.  Doing nothing is not always the right move, but, outside of emergency situations, it's always worthy of consideration (in my nonexpert opinion).  

 

Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean it literally, as in not even changing lifestyle? Doing nothing when you have a health problem seems a peculiar stance to me. 

[Mango]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

My first inclination when it comes to messing with hormones, or any medical intervention really, is to do nothing.  Doing nothing is not always the right move, but, outside of emergency situations, it's always worthy of consideration (in my nonexpert opinion).  

Doing nothing is the right move in this situation but medical intervention is ok if it helps. Letting nature follow its course is the way of Tao.

BTW Non ejaculatory orgasms are not a health issue here.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Mango

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean it literally, as in not even changing lifestyle? Doing nothing when you have a health problem seems a peculiar stance to me. 

 

You make a good point and maybe I should rethink my "do nothing" stance.  I just think that when there's a problem the human tendency is to do something about it and often we rush into action in an ill-considered way.  The risks of an ill-considered action are greater with surgery as opposed to eating a salad, but in both cases I think it's often wise to take a breath before acting and ensure that the proposed plan truly makes sense.

[anshino23]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You make a good point and maybe I should rethink my "do nothing" stance.  I just think that when there's a problem the human tendency is to do something about it and often we rush into action in an ill-considered way.  The risks of an ill-considered action are greater with surgery as opposed to eating a salad, but in both cases I think it's often wise to take a breath before acting and ensure that the proposed plan truly makes sense.

 

Ah, so you're referring to the calculus of taking action, not taking action itself. In that case, I fully agree.  

 

As with any medical procedure it's certainly important to be wise about it - and do as you say.

 

Outside of emergency situations, we always have time to go a bit deeper and try to really assess the situation holistically to figure out what the next logical steps may be for our situation. 

[Nungali]

Seems like someone is just curious or wants a better sex life ...  just dealing with the physical plane .

 

Nothing wrong with that   IMO .   and I dont see why this is the wrong forum for such a question .... considering some of the stuff that goes on / is allowed here       .

 

Lets just stay in a  physical place for a moment  ... forget all the daoism and would be  'tantric' advice .   Sex can be even better when you learn to have orgasm without ejaculation , for a start its less messy     ... thats actually what one GF said to me   .

 

It can make one very popular 'with the ladies' - especially if they have been bored with  ( not a pun folks )  the   'standard male sexual approach '   ( again, feedback from past partner ) . A man can also become bored with himself if his focus is on ejaculation ....  see below *

 

I had no teacher , no 'instruction' etc. etc.   many men have discovered this by themselves ... or I should say, with the help of an understanding partner .   If you havent got a clue how to get started , try being aware of other bodily functions and experimenting with control , 'send awareness' to different parts of your body and practice conscious control of them , you might be surprised how many functions you can develop some control over , when you previously assumed you could not do that . 

 

And this isnt about 'retention' or anything like that , it might start as a physical / muscular sensation where some restriction or delay is experienced, but after time it will be more natural.   Also it takes the focus away from ejaculation as the 'aim'   ( sorry ... there I go again )   and puts the 'Onan'  ... I mean  'onus'  on orgasm .

 

And to that end it is important  , especially when one considers 'potent orgasm'  then the whole process becomes , not 'tantric' but one of psychological healing and even therapy .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgastic_potency

 

*  Reich first noticed  orgastic impotency amongst some of his patients - it went something like this :

 

Reich : " So, you are 'happily married' and have a good sex life . Good. Tell me though , what is sex actually like for you when you are having it . "

 

Patient :   "  Well , my wife and myself go into the bedroom , we  get into the bed, we have sex ... and ummm ... we finish ."

 

Reich : " Do you ever enter anther state of consciousness ,  expereince anything unusual, see anything unusual like lights or patterns , have any  feelings about 'loss of self' and 'merging ' , experience involuntary body reactions ,  experience an ' altered  or mystical state '  afterwards  ? "

 

Patient ;  " I dont know what you are talking about .... I already explained the process .."

 

Reich :  " I think you may be  experiencing 'orgastic impotency ' .

 

Patient :  " How dare you Sir !  I will have you know I have been happily married for over 15 years and have children  ! "

 

 

- and its STILL going on today .    One time , at a little private ecckie party one of the women asked me to give her a back 'massage' ... okay ,  another , a good friend of mine , was watching with great interest as the  other woman got into it , sighed ... melted  ... etc  

 

Then she asked if I could do that to her ... sure .  She reacted the same ... after wards she  " You know I have never been touched like that before  ... ever . "

 

Me ;       ....  but  ... your married and have 2 kids and have been married before that ... and had a boyfriend or two . "

 

" I know ! ..   "         was her response .

 

How sad ....  all these people  , never got, not only  no good sex ... but never  a  nice sensual touching  ! 

 

 

It might not harm men to 'cultivate ' a little more  'female acknowledgement'   in their 'quest for adventure ' .

 

 

 

 

.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Nungali

[blue eyed snake]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Seems like someone is just curious or wants a better sex life ...  just dealing with the physical plane .

 

Nothing wrong with that   IMO .   and I dont see why this is the wrong forum for such a question .... considering some of the stuff that goes on / is allowed here       .

 

Lets just stay on the physical place for a moment  ... forget all the daoism and would be  'tantric' advice .   Sex can be even better when you learn to have orgasm without ejaculation , for a start its less messy     ... thats actually what one GF said to me   .

 

It can make one very popular 'wit the ladies' - especially if they have been bored with  ( not a pun folks )  the   'standard male sexual approach '   ( again, feedback from past partner ) . A man can also become bored with himself if his focus is on ejaculation ....  see below *

 

I had no teacher , no 'instruction' etc. etc.   many men have discovered this by themselves ... or I should say, with the help of an understanding partner .   If you havent got a clue how to get started , try being aware of other bodily functions and experimenting with control , 'send awareness' to different parts of your body and practice conscious control of them , you might be surprised how many functions you can develop some control over , when you previously assumed you could not do that . 

 

And this isnt about 'retention' or anything like that , it might start as a physical / muscular sensation where some restriction or delay is experienced, but after time it will be more natural.   Also it takes the foucus away from ejaculation as the 'aim'   ( sorry ... there I go again )   and puts the 'Onan'  ... I mean  'onus'  on orgasm .

 

And to that end it is important  , especially when one considers 'potent orgasm'  then the whole process becomes , not 'tantric' but one of psychological healing and even therapy .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgastic_potency

 

*  Reich first noticed  orgastic impotency amongst some of his patients - it went something like this :

 

Reich : " So, you are 'happily married' and have a good sex life . Good. Tell me though , what is sex actually like for you when you are having it . "

 

Patient :   "  Well , my wife and myself go into the bedroom , we  get into the bed, we have sex ... and ummm ... we finish ."

 

Reich : " Do you ever enter anther state of consciousness ,  see anything unusual, see anything unusual like lights or patterns , have any  feelings about 'loss of self' and 'merging ' , experience involuntary body reactions ,  experience an 'altered  state' afterwards  . "

 

Patient ;  " I dont know what you are talking about .... I already explained the process .."

 

Reich :  " I think you may be  experiencing 'orgastic impotency ' .

 

Patient :  " How dare you Sir !  I will have you know I have been happily married for over 15 years and have 2 children ! "

 

 

- and its STILL going on today .    One time , at a little private ecckie party one of the women asked me to give her a back 'massage' ... okay ,  another , a good friend of mine , was watching with great interest as the  other woman got into it , sighed ... melted  ... etc  

 

Then she asked if I could do that to her ... sure .  She reacted the same ... after wards she  " You know I have never been touched like that before  ... ever . "

 

Me ;       ....  but  ... your married and have 2 kids and have been married before that ... and had a boyfriend or two . "

 

" I know !  "  was her response .

 

How sad ....  all these people put there , never got, not only good sex ... but merely a  nice sensual touching  ! 

 

 

It might not harm men to 'cultivate ' a little more  'female acknowledgement'   in their 'quest for adventure ' .

 

 

 

thanks Nungali

for your lecture

[Nungali]