Guru Viking: Daoist Inner Alchemy - Damo Mitchell

[anshino23]

New interview up: 

 

 

[MetaDao]

Nice interview! 
 

Though there are some inaccuracies in Damo’s understanding of alchemical practice.

 

Breathing techniques and seated meditation are not necessary. Those are simply within whatever line he claims to be a part of. 

 

The energy work is not simply to fuel meditative states. That is wrong. You need no meditation in alchemy. His view is a mix of Buddhist and Daoist and is a dilution of the ancient teachings. It can serve that purpose, sure. Yet, there is no need for seated meditation within true alchemy.

 

His view that alchemy is hacking is more accurate. It is a body based method of accessing the energies that sit behind physicality and working with those for spiritual growth. Any meditative state or experience will arise naturally as if you have taken a drug. There is no need to sit and quiet the mind. The fire will burn the thoughts away automatically.
 

Daoist alchemy dates back thousands of years before recorded history and any form of practice that has mixed Buddhism and Daoism in the way Damo describes is not the original Daoist alchemy. It may not necessarily be wrong, but the combined use of energy work with meditation is not necessary. One can simply work with the original substances through the cauldron of the body to establish the correct conditions for forming the elixir. All without seated meditation or breath work.

 

Good info all around though. Helpful!

Edited November 7, 2022 by MetaDao

[freeform]

7 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Breathing techniques and seated meditation are not necessary. Those are simply within whatever line he claims to be a part of. 

Yes Quanzhen and Longmen lineages include plenty of meditative work.

 

Southern schools are more Ming-focused.

 

My practise also doesn’t quite agree with Damo that alchemy should be used simply for fuelling meditative states…

 

That’s not how my teacher does things… though meditative states are still a key part of the ‘middle pillar’ of practices.

[MetaDao]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Yes Quanzhen and Longmen lineages include plenty of meditative work.

 

Southern schools are more Ming-focused.

 

My practise also doesn’t quite agree with Damo that alchemy should be used simply for fuelling meditative states…

 

That’s not how my teacher does things… though meditative states are still a key part of the ‘middle pillar’ of practices.

Yes just a different way of doing things I think with different goals in mind. Not trying to put his teachings down. Just stating some slight differences

[Master Logray]

I think Damo Mitchell is not selling so called authentic Gongs .  There are 2 types of teachers, one type is follow their own tradition to the full, no alteration or refinement is allowed.  Another type is having their own modification and inventions, in fact, a new product.   His Lotus Neigong seems to be the later.   Teachers need to adjust customize teachings according to the needs of their students.  It may not be what they are doing themselves.

[MetaDao]

22 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I think Damo Mitchell is not selling so called authentic Gongs .  There are 2 types of teachers, one type is follow their own tradition to the full, no alteration or refinement is allowed.  Another type is having their own modification and inventions, in fact, a new product.   His Lotus Neigong seems to be the later.   Teachers need to adjust customize teachings according to the needs of their students.  It may not be what they are doing themselves.

I think his gongs are authentic if you mean the effects generated by the causes of practice.

 

I believe he has synthesized things from different traditions together to form a streamlined foundation for making body and mind more efficient. 

 

For his own practice, he has used some remnants of Neidan alchemical methods. Though, he either does not have a complete method or does not wish to see it through. I believe as he states in this video and elsewhere, his goals are different than what Neidan lineages teach.

Instead of seeking the elixir or Yang Shen, he utilizes a Neidan foundation of replenished Yuan Qi to accomplish something different. It’s more an attainment centered around Yin Shen. It’s misleading because his books on the subject are centered around the elixir.

 

Lotus Neigong is not representative of what he and his close students are aiming to achieve and students of that school rarely become a close student of his.  His methods and school are great for what they aim to achieve. It just isn’t Neidan. Neidan aims for immortality.

Edited November 7, 2022 by MetaDao

[Master Logray]

33 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I think his gongs are authentic if you mean the effects generated by the causes of practice.

 

I believe he has synthesized things from different traditions together to form a streamlined foundation for making body and mind more efficient. 

 

For his own practice, he has used some remnants of Neidan alchemical methods. Though, he either does not have a complete method or does not wish to see it through. I believe as he states in this video and elsewhere, his goals are different than what Neidan lineages teach.

Instead of seeking the elixir or Yang Shen, he utilizes a Neidan foundation of replenished Yuan Qi to accomplish something different. It’s more an attainment centered around Yin Shen. It’s misleading because his books on the subject are centered around the elixir.

 

Lotus Neigong is not representative of what he and his close students are aiming to achieve and students of that school rarely become a close student of his.  His methods and school are great for what they aim to achieve. It just isn’t Neidan. Neidan aims for immortality.

 

I suppose his methods are effective since he has many students.   Authenticity, in most traditions, often means undiluted unaltered teaching pass down over generations and having names of each master in the lineage known.     Once you mix it, it is no longer "authentic" but could be better or worse.   This is a culture thing.  Chinese typically think the founding masters' methods are the best and subsequent generations are getting less and less of it.  They often hype my method is the "Real xx".

[Shadow_self]

12 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Nice interview! 
 

Though there are some inaccuracies in Damo’s understanding of alchemical practice.

 

Breathing techniques and seated meditation are not necessary. Those are simply within whatever line he claims to be a part of. 

 

The energy work is not simply to fuel meditative states. That is wrong. You need no meditation in alchemy. His view is a mix of Buddhist and Daoist and is a dilution of the ancient teachings. It can serve that purpose, sure. Yet, there is no need for seated meditation within true alchemy.

 

His view that alchemy is hacking is more accurate. It is a body based method of accessing the energies that sit behind physicality and working with those for spiritual growth. Any meditative state or experience will arise naturally as if you have taken a drug. There is no need to sit and quiet the mind. The fire will burn the thoughts away automatically.
 

Daoist alchemy dates back thousands of years before recorded history and any form of practice that has mixed Buddhism and Daoism in the way Damo describes is not the original Daoist alchemy. It may not necessarily be wrong, but the combined use of energy work with meditation is not necessary. One can simply work with the original substances through the cauldron of the body to establish the correct conditions for forming the elixir. All without seated meditation or breath work.

 

Good info all around though. Helpful!

 

Russian school?

 

There are Buddhist lines that do alchemy too, Im not too sure of the mechanisms at the higher levels. Similarities but differences. Big emphasis on embodied methods however.

 

Some use seated methods only, some use standing methods only (one of my friends is in a line like this)

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Yes Quanzhen and Longmen lineages include plenty of meditative work.

 

Southern schools are more Ming-focused.

 

My practise also doesn’t quite agree with Damo that alchemy should be used simply for fuelling meditative states…

 

That’s not how my teacher does things… though meditative states are still a key part of the ‘middle pillar’ of practices.

 

Ive tried to explain this to several people about the ming/xing distinction after I first came across it when researching different lineages

 

There's a few good points here if anyone is interested

 

https://www.academia.edu/7774666/Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence_On_the_Meanings_of_Ming_命_in_Daoist_Internal_Alchemy_and_its_Relation_to_Xing_性_or_Human_Nature

 

 

I cant say I've ever heard Damo say alchemy should be used for fuelling meditative states.

 

I have heard him say something else about energetic use and meditative states, but not that

[Creation]

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

I cant say I've ever heard Damo say alchemy should be used for fuelling meditative states.

It's in the interview. What he does not say in the interview is that it is only for fueling meditative states. Not sure why that claim has popped up in this thread. 

[Shadow_self]

9 hours ago, Creation said:

It's in the interview. What he does not say in the interview is that it is only for fueling meditative states. Not sure why that claim has popped up in this thread. 

 

Oh im not saying he didnt say it, I just haven't heard it from him.  

 

Do you have a timestamp by any chance? I must have missed that

[Jaguar]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:50 PM, MetaDao said:

Breathing techniques and seated meditation are not necessary. Those are simply within whatever line he claims to be a part of. 

So according to your lineage, zero meditation is necessary for alchemy? A few standing movements is enough for the refinement process of Yuan Jing into Yuan Qi while I can think about anything going on about life or create fantasies? Interesting..

[MetaDao]

35 minutes ago, Jaguar said:

So according to your lineage, zero meditation is necessary for alchemy? A few standing movements is enough for the refinement process of Yuan Jing into Yuan Qi while I can think about anything going on about life or create fantasies? Interesting..

Seated meditation. Yes. You don’t need it. You need the correct internal state. I can’t describe my practice at all. It is an oral tradition meaning nothing regarding the practices is to be written down. You can’t just stand thinking about rainbows. You must be completely empty. You can get infinitely empty 

Edited November 11, 2022 by MetaDao

[Jaguar]

5 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Seated meditation. Yes. You don’t need it. You need the correct internal state. I can’t describe my practice at all. It is an oral tradition meaning nothing regarding the practices is to be written down. You can’t just stand thinking about rainbows. You must be completely empty. You can get infinitely empty 

Okay so the movements do involve a state of meditation. That makes more sense.. thanks

So obviously your lineage doesn't value full lotus posture or it's significance of the embryo in Daoist alchemic iconography.. 

[MetaDao]

5 minutes ago, Jaguar said:

Okay so the movements do involve a state of meditation. That makes more sense.. thanks

So obviously your lineage doesn't value full lotus posture or it's significance of the embryo in Daoist alchemic iconography.. 

Nope! There are seated lineages but within this specific lineage it is all standing/moving with martial arts contained within it.

 

The external structure must be perfected and the internal state must be empty/meditative. Once you start working with substances other things become more important. Essentially, your awareness shifts from structure down to subtler and subtler things. Things like Jhana states can be entered while in the movement as stillness is contained within movement and vice-versa. That’s about all I can say

 

 

[Jaguar]

2 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Nope! There are seated lineages but within this specific lineage it is all standing/moving with martial arts contained within it.

 

The external structure must be perfected and the internal state must be empty/meditative. Once you start working with substances other things become more important. Essentially, your awareness shifts from structure down to subtler and subtler things. Things like Jhana states can be entered while in the movement as stillness is contained within movement and vice-versa. That’s about all I can say

 

 

Ok fair enough I understand thanks for the clarifying 

[Creation]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:49 AM, Shadow_self said:

Do you have a timestamp by any chance? I must have missed that

Oh, right.  Starting at 1:09:40

[MetaDao]

12 minutes ago, Creation said:

Oh, right.  Starting at 1:09:40

Yes, and the reason it kicks you out is because Yin Shen states of consciousness use up Yuan Qi. This includes perceptive siddhi

Edited November 13, 2022 by MetaDao

[chaosbananaman]

On 11/7/2022 at 9:01 AM, freeform said:

Yes Quanzhen and Longmen lineages include plenty of meditative work.

 

Southern schools are more Ming-focused.

 

My practise also doesn’t quite agree with Damo that alchemy should be used simply for fuelling meditative states…

 

That’s not how my teacher does things… though meditative states are still a key part of the ‘middle pillar’ of practices.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what else does alchemy fuel in your tradition other than meditative states? 

Edited November 13, 2022 by chaosbananaman

[MetaDao]

57 minutes ago, chaosbananaman said:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what else does alchemy fuel in your tradition other than meditative states? 

Alchemy fuels spiritual growth. Everything else is a milestone along the path.

I’ll let freeform answer your question as well, but it should be a general fact for all of Neidan.

 

First of all, Daoist alchemy is the fusion of Yuan Qi and refined Yuan Shen into an elixir. There are different kinds of elixirs and different methods but all Neidan aims for the elixir. The nature of this elixir is to transmute your spirit from Yin Shen(inert spirit) to Yang Shen.

 

What Damo talks of in this video is more like Neigong that is used to fuel meditative states. If you have more fuel in your battery, your consciousness can maintain a meditative state for longer. This is useful for developing certain mental qualities. 

 

The different energies of the body that are used in alchemy can be used for a great number of things. Magical power, development of siddhi, meditation, martial arts, divination, ect. However, the goal should always be spiritual growth. Otherwise, you are straying off the path of alchemy

Edited November 13, 2022 by MetaDao

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Creation said:

Oh, right.  Starting at 1:09:40

 

Ah, hes talking about using Energy to fuel meditative states. I believe he said it was a major part of alchemy, as opposed to the sole reason for alchemy

 

Incidentally, as I understand it, this is most important when one can "turn the light around" as something begins to take place within that state that is very important.

 

It is something you don't hear spoken about much, probably as it may be still something that's kept mostly inner door,

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, chaosbananaman said:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what else does alchemy fuel in your tradition other than meditative states? 

 

What a ridiculous question

 

Isnt it obvious?

 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Shadow_self

[freeform]

On 13/11/2022 at 2:47 AM, chaosbananaman said:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what else does alchemy fuel in your tradition other than meditative states? 

It creates transformation - on various levels